...

[TreesTrees]

...

 

[Wrangler]

Well, that sure is a lot of prepared text! It must have taken a lot of work to put it all together. Well done. And welcome to the CyB.

From an evangelical perspective, the question becomes how to influence people to alter their theology to be logical? I’ve found the actual driver is not logical but psychological.

That is, it is not that they don’t know what logic is. It’s that they believe it is wrong to apply it to logic. One tactic is to over apply what is in the Bible, with God all things are possible. Another is to Appeal to Emotion, label what you say as heretical as grounds to dismiss it?

 

[Illuminator]

 

[Illuminator]

Universalism is not possible under Catholic, Orthodox, or Protestant assumptions and the Bible’s teaching.​

Dialogue on Hell & the “Possibility” of Universalism​

 

[Wrangler]

Without reading your posted article, how do you integrate Judgement Day, the Lake of Fire and the Second Death into Universal theology? (I once was a Unitarian-Universalist)

 

[St. SteVen]

Eternal Conscious Torment is false. And the people who believe in ECT have committed EVERY logical fallacy that has been documented in existence ever as per this website below. Logical Fallacy = False notion in logic.

I agree, but... religious people don't care about logic. (for the most part)

All three views of the final judgment have biblical support. (that's something they can get excited about)

10,295 views Dec 9, 2019
Hell - Three Christian Views Lecture by Steve Gregg

 

[Illuminator]

I agree, but... religious people don't care about logic. (for the most part)

Faith without reason is dangerous.

Pope's letter to bishops:

"Faith and reason are like two wings on which the human spirit rises to the contemplation of truth; and God has placed in the human heart a desire to know the truth—in a word, to know himself—so that, by knowing and loving God, men and women may also come to the fullness of truth about themselves (cf. Ex 33:18; Ps 27:8-9; 63:2-3; Jn 14:8; 1 Jn 3:2).​

Fides et Ratio (14 September 1998)

Encyclical Letter Fides et Ratio (14 September 1998)

www.vatican.va

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Eternal Conscious Torment is false. And the people who believe in ECT have committed EVERY logical fallacy that has been documented in existence ever as per this website below. Logical Fallacy = False notion in logic.

Logical Fallacies - List of Logical Fallacies with Examples



Have faith alone in Jesus Christ to be saved.

Romans 3:28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law.



Christian Universalism (UR, those who believe in UR I will refer to as URers as short hand) is the truth. That is, everyone will become believers in Jesus Christ through faith alone. Thus, all people will go to Heaven.

John 12:32 "And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."



Let’s analyze the psychological practices that Eternal Conscious Torment believers (referred to as ECTers as short hand) use to falsely promote their belief and the logical fallacies they fall into.



Selective Exposure = ECTers seek out and notice only things that interest them.



Example: I’ve seen ECTers say “Jesus talks more about Hell than Heaven”, but this is false. The truth is that “Jesus talks more about Heaven is Hell.” Here is the evidence that proves this point:



Jesus' Teaching On Hell



To summarize it, the English word describing the concept of Hell does not appear in the Bible.



“How do we know about this place called hell? Where did hell come from? It is not in the Bible. Neither is the name “hell” in the Bible.” – Robin William West



Selective Retention = ECTers ignore and modify ideas, messages and images that aren’t consistent with their beliefs.



Example: ECTers ignore the word “all”. All = All.



1 Corinthians 15:22-28 All will be made alive in Christ, but each in his own turn and ultimately Christ will subdue all His enemies, eliminate death and God will be all in all.



Example: ECTers modify the word “aionios” and “olam” to falsely mean “forever” when it truthfully means “pertaining to an age”



Selective Awareness = ECTers focus on one idea and filter out all other ideas.



Cognitive Dissonance = ECTers holding multiple beliefs that contradict with each other

Example: God is almighty, all powerful He can do everything -> God can’t save everyone.

Psalm 13:5 I trust in your unfailing love; my heart rejoices in your salvation.



Non Sequitar: ECTers premise does not lead to a logical conclusion

Example: God is love. Love is kind. Torture forever is cruel -> God will torture the majority of people forever.

1 Cor. 13:8 "Love never fails."



Ad Hominem: ECTers personally verbally attack whoever they argue with by threatening them with Eternal Conscious Torment

Example: ECTers say “You will burn in hell forever!” during arguments. Meanwhile, us Christian Universalists know that everyone will go to Heaven forever. All will trust in Christ with faith alone and be saved.

ISAIAH 48:10 See, I have refined you ... I have tested you in the furnace of affliction.

Trying to0 do what yu just did by using human logic, is like trying to bring buckets of water with a colander.

 

[St. SteVen]

Trying to0 do what yu just did by using human logic, is like trying to bring buckets of water with a colander.

Are you agreeing that ECT is illogical? Therefore, pointless to use logic against it?

 

[Illuminator]

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616

1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

Father, accept this offering​

from your whole family.​

Grant us your peace in this life,​

save us from final damnation,​

and count us among those you have chosen.622​

​

footnotes:​

612 1 Jn 3:14-15.
613 Cf. Mt 25:31-46.
614 Cf. Mt 5:22,29; 10:28; 13:42,50; Mk 9:43-48.
615 Mt 13:41-42.
616 Mt 25:41.
617 Cf. DS 76; 409; 411; 801; 858; 1002; 1351; 1575; Paul VI, CPG § 12.
618 Mt 7:13-14.
619 LG 48 § 3; Mt 22:13; cf. Heb 9:27; Mt 25:13,26,30,31-46.
620 Cf. Council of Orange II (529) : DS 397; Council of Trent (1547):1567.
621 2 Pet 3:9.
622 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 88.

context: Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 2 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 12​

 

[St. SteVen]

IV. HELL

1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. ...

Well, that's a curious thing.
Not choosing FREELY to love God would make us his enemies? Right?

And what are WE required to do in regards to OUR own enemies? (incinerate them?)
No, we are to love our enemies. Does God operate at a lower standard than he holds us to?
Not possible. "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?" - vs 46 below.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[St. SteVen]

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":621

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.622

There is an obvious contradiction between the statement "God predestines no one to go to hell" and the prayer that ends with "and count us among those you have chosen.". Wait... "chosen"? (predestined)

 

[Illuminator]

There is an obvious contradiction between the statement "God predestines no one to go to hell" and the prayer that ends with "and count us among those you have chosen.". Wait... "chosen"? (predestined)

You strain a gnat from post #13 and swallow a camel.

Well, that's a curious thing.
Not choosing FREELY to love God would make us his enemies? Right?

Right, in a Calvinistic dichotomous world. Being lost does not necessarily mean "enemy".

And what are WE required to do in regards to OUR own enemies? (incinerate them?)
No, we are to love our enemies. Does God operate at a lower standard than he holds us to?
Not possible. "If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?" - vs 46 below.

Matthew 5:43-48 NIV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Who told you Catholics don't love our enemies? We even help those who hate us, with food, medical care, education, housing, etc. In developed countries, many of the community services are free to everyone: safe refuge for abused women, food banks, housing projects, marriage and debt counselling, a very long list of services, mostly run by volunteers and trained professionals where needed. Nobody asks what your religion is and proselytizing is forbidden.
Catholic services in YOUR city, Minneapolis.

All Services - Catholic Charities of St. Paul and Minneapolis

Information to help you understand what services Catholic Charities of St. Paul and Minneapolis offers.

www.cctwincities.org

There is an obvious contradiction between the statement "God predestines no one to go to hell" and the prayer that ends with "and count us among those you have chosen.". Wait... "chosen"? (predestined)

"and count us among those you have chosen." is a prayer to be counted among those predestined to glory, there is no contradiction. Why is it ok for you to do that but wrong for Catholics? A prayer is not a theological treatise.

Eph. 1:5 – Paul teaches that God “predestined” us in love to be His sons through Jesus Christ. “Predestination” means that God knows what we will do before we do it (it does not mean that God determines what we do; otherwise, we would have no freewill). Predestination is taken from the Greek word “prooridzo” which means to know or declare in advance by God’s foreknowledge. See, for example, 1 Peter 1:2 where Peter writes about the “elect according to the foreknowledge of God.” The terms “predestination” and “the elect” always refer to God’s knowledge (not human knowledge) because God is outside of time (and humans cannot predict the future).
There are two types of “predestination,” to grace and to glory.
In this verse, Paul is teaching about predestination to grace, which means becoming a Christian.

1 Pet. 1:1-2 – Paul teaches about being destined by God for obedience to Christ. This is another example of predestination to grace. But there is also predestination to glory.

Rom. 8:29-30 – Paul also writes that we are predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son. Now Paul is writing about predestination to glory, which means not only becoming a faithful Christian during our lives, but persevering to the end by conforming our will to Christ’s will.

1 Cor. 15:49 – Paul writes that we are conformed in His image at the resurrection, when we shall bear the image of the man of heaven. These are the people who were predestined to glory. (you must be physically dead and with God to qualify)

Rev. 3:5 – Jesus warns that He can blot out the names that are in the book of life. This refers to those currently, not ultimately, justified (those who are predestined to grace, but not to glory).

Eph. 1:5; 1 Peter 1:2; Rom. 8:29-30; 1 Cor. 15:49 – therefore, predestination is either to grace (which we could lose) or to glory (which we cannot lose). As alluded to above, some non-Catholics confuse the definition of “predestination” (which means God knows what we will do before we do it) and “predetermination” (the erroneous belief that God determines what we will do). But God does not author evil. We choose evil by our own freewill.

Ezek. 18:23-24, 32 – God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked. Our death is our freewill, failing to respond to His grace. God does not predetermine certain people to hell. God also does not predetermine certain “elect” people to heaven. We all, as God’s children, have been given the grace we need to be saved, but we can decide to reject God’s grace.

2 Peter 3:9 – God is forbearing toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance. God wills all to be saved, but our salvation depends on our willingness to repent and receive God’s grace.

Matt. 18:14 – Jesus says it is not the will of the Father that any of the children should perish. But He did not make us robots and respects the freewill He has given us.
If we did not have this freewill, we would not be able to love, and if we would not be able to love, we would not have been created in God’s image and likeness.
source
further reading:

“Reply to Calvin” #1: The Elect​

 

[St. SteVen]

Who told you Catholics don't love our enemies?

That's a gross over-reaction. Should I not bother you again?
Not a very welcoming response. I come in peace. - LOL

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Are you agreeing that ECT is illogical? Therefore, pointless to use logic against it?

No the lake of fire is real because God said so in His Word! Whether it seems logical to a man is irrelevant.

 

[St. SteVen]

No the lake of fire is real because God said so in His Word! Whether it seems logical to a man is irrelevant.

What is the nature and purpose of the Lake of Fire?
Is that illogical as well?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What is the nature and purpose of the Lake of Fire?
Is that illogical as well?

To give eternal punishment for those who rejected the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin. Its original intent was for the devil and his angels, but expanded when man fell.

 

[St. SteVen]

To give eternal punishment for those who rejected the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin. Its original intent was for the devil and his angels, but expanded when man fell.

What about those who have never heard of the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin?

Salvation is a free gift, but if you refuse it, you will be incinerated? Sounds more like spiritual extortion to me.

 

[Illuminator]

That's a gross over-reaction.

Then why did you bring up the off topic "love your enemies"? As if we didn't know?

Should I not bother you again?
Not a very welcoming response. I come in peace. - LOL

If you "come in peace", you wouldn't make stupid claims about an "obvious contradiction" that isn't obvious to anyone who can read. Not a very welcoming post.

 

[Illuminator]

What about those who have never heard of the death and physical resurrection of Jesus for their sin?

Salvation is a free gift, but if you refuse it, you will be incinerated? Sounds more like spiritual extortion to me.

"spiritual extortion" is a logical fallacy. Nobody is extorted into rejecting God's love and forgiveness. God sends no one to hell, people send themselves. Since you reject the plain teachings of Jesus on hell, it wouldn't surprise me if you are anti-trinitarian, anti-Protestant, as well.