6 days of creation

[Rex]

Get worked up
I know you do aspen, because I never said nor commented on a single radio carbon dating remark, yet you painted me that color simply because I liked JB Romans reference. And something else I don't do, now that I know what I do about the big bang, time and space, is dig my heals in and insist the world is only 6000 years and 6 days old. I never have because it always sounded and looked so indefensible, its faith, instead I waited for years to have an opinion about it. and the above is my way of explaining both 6 days and 15 billion years, BUT God may have created it in a nano sec. He certainly has the ability. But in Proverbs we see her speaking about watching Him laying the foundations of the earth.

 

[aspen]

Get worked up
I know you do aspen, because I never said nor commented on a single radio carbon dating remark, yet you painted me that color simply because I liked JB Romans reference.

Actually, I attributed JBs post to you.

And something else I don't do, now that I know what I do about the big bang, time and space, is dig my heals in and insist the world is only 6000 years and 6 days old. I never have because it always sounded and looked so indefensible, its faith, instead I waited for years to have an opinion about it. and the above is my way of explaining both 6 days and 15 billion years, BUT God may have created it in a nano sec. He certainly has the ability. But in Proverbs we see her speaking about watching Him laying the foundations of the earth.

All I am saying is the creation account is not scientific. Based on the evidence and what I know about the character of God, I believe that the Earth is billions of years old. If I am wrong, God and I will have a good laugh about it someday. In the meantime, I reject the idea that God made the Earth appear old just to mislead us about His creation.

 

[Rex]

All I am saying is the creation account is not scientific. Based on the evidence and what I know about the character of God,

Yes the creation is scientific but your one of those that can nether read or understand whats being said. I just provided evidence the creation account is both six days old and 15 billion old. But knowing you and your belief this infringes on your opinion that Gen and most of the OT is noting more than a myth, myth is the word you used, So I can understand how what I posted is rather unsettling to your opinion that "the creation account is not scientific" It takes your foundation "Based on the evidence and what I know about the character of God," and implies your wrong. The creation account is not a myth. And it can be shown to be scientific.

 

[Selene]

All things have been created by God.

But, because the entire bible is about God's chosen people, Genesis is probably about the creation of the covenant between God and Adam more that about the natural.

I know this will not fit with most Christians. It is just a thought.

This is true. The Holy Bible is NOT a science book and should never be read as a science book. The Holy Bible is about Jesus Christ and the salvation of mankind - that is what it really is. The main point in Genesis 1 is that God created everything. How He created everything and how long it took for Him to create everything is irrelevant. Genesis is more about the covenant between God and His chosen people because God linked the creation of the world to the covenant. I posted the following in another thread, so I will post it here:

God linked the Jewish Sabbath to the Old Creation where God created everything for 6 days and rested on the 7th day. While it is true that observing the Sabbath is in the Ten Commandments, it is also a covenant between the Jewish people and God.

Exodus 31:16-17 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Because the Sabbath became a covenant, it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that can be changed. The other commandments cannot be changed because they were not covenants. For example, circumcision was ALSO a covenant, and because it was a covenant, Christians did not need to follow this Jewish covenant of circumcision. For Christians, Christ is the New Covenant.

Luke 22:20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

As Christians, we are no longer part of the Old Covenant and the Old Creation which was linked with the Jewish Sabbath (Saturday). We are now part of the New Covenant and part of the New Creation, which is linked with the Lord's Day (Sunday - the day of Christ's resurrection).

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: [fn] The old has gone, the new is here!

Christ rose from the dead on the "first day of the week." Because it is the "first day" of Christ's resurrection, it recalls the first Creation. Sunday is also the "eighth day" following the Sabbath; therefore, it symbolized the New Creation ushered in by Christ's resurrection. In the Old Testament, God also blessed the eighth day......a foreshadow of the New Creation that will come from Christ's resurrection. According to the Old Testament, the first and eighth day was also a Sabbath.....a foreshadow of God's plan of salvation.

Leviticus 23:39 Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on the first day [shall be] a sabbath, and on the eighth day [shall be] a sabbath.

The Apostle Paul said that the the Jewish Sabbath was only a shadow of things that were to come in Christ.

Colossians 2:16-17 So don't let anyone condemn you for what you eat or drink, or for not celebrating certain holy days or new moon ceremonies or Sabbaths. For these rules are only shadows of the reality yet to come. And Christ himself is that reality.

 

[aspen]

Science is not gathering evidence and twisting it to support your theory. The Creation Myth is not testable. The evidence gathered by all areas of science point towards an old Earth. Your description of perspective and the age of the Earth is moot because the perspective of the story is from Earth.

What is the scientist's name?

I've already said that I am not afraid of being wrong - my ego is not tied up in my opinion. I am concerned about being honest about my opinion, however - I am not interested in lying just to tow the conservative Christian perspective.

 

[Rex]

Because the Sabbath became a covenant, it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that can be changed. The other commandments cannot be changed because they were not covenants. For example, circumcision was ALSO a covenant, and because it was a covenant, Christians did not need to follow this Jewish covenant of circumcision. For Christians, Christ is the New Covenant.

Really that's funny Selene and who taught you that trick?

You see in Deuteronomy Moses reminding Israel refers the entire 10 commandments as a covenant.
Deuteronomy 5:1-8 most notably verses 2&3

Science is not gathering evidence and twisting it to support your theory. The Creation Myth is not testable. The evidence gathered by all areas of science point towards an old Earth. Your description of perspective and the age of the Earth is moot because the perspective of the story is from Earth.

What is the scientist's name?

I see you have qualified yourself as fruit fly, you can not even read and comprehend one post, how is it you profess to know anything about the bible.
I provided the link in two post and his names is


Dr. Gerald Schroeder

Dr. Gerald Schroeder earned his BSc, MSc and double-Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics and Earth and Planetary Sciences at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught physics for seven years. While a consultant at the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission he participated in the formulation of nuclear non-proliferation treaties with the former Soviet Union and witnessed the testing of six atomic bombs. He has served as a consultant to various governments worldwide and has been published in Time, Newsweek and Scientific American. He is the author of Genesis and the Big Bang, the discovery of harmony between modern science and the Bible, now in seven languages. He is also the author of The Science of God and The Hidden Face of God. Dr. Schroeder is currently a lecturer at Aish Jerusalem for the Discovery Seminar, Essentials program, Jerusalem Fellowships, and Executive Learning Center ― focusing on the topics of evolution, cosmology, and age of the universe.

Third time I have posted the link to his book over view
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

 

[aspen]

Why is it so important for you to point out how stupid you believe I am, Rex? Or how blind or brainwashed or heretical? It really makes me laugh - especially when you turn around and claim that Catholics are always trying to be superior. Which is it anyway?

 

[Selene]

So Rex, are you saying then that Exodus 31:16-17 is wrong?? It says right there in the Bible that the Jewish Sabbath is a covenant and linked to the Old Creation. So, exactly what are you saying about Exodus 31:16-17......that it's NOT a covenant and that it's NOT linked to the Old Creation??

Exodus 31:16-17 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, [for] a perpetual covenant. It [is] a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for [in] six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Again, you are trying to derail the thread. In my post, I stated that the Jewish Sabbath was a covenant between God and His chosen people just like circumcision; therefore, we don't need to follow the Jewish Sabbath. Did I say that we should NOT follow the other commandments?? The other commandments such as "do not steal" are NOT covenants because those are laws written in the hearts of all people, not just the chosen people of God.

 

[Rex]

Because you said "Because the Sabbath became a covenant it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that can be changed." where as Moses considers all the 10 commandments a covenant
Deuteronomy 5:1-8

Because the Sabbath became a covenant, it is the only one of the Ten Commandments that can be changed. The other commandments cannot be changed because they were not covenants. For example, circumcision was ALSO a covenant, and because it was a covenant, Christians did not need to follow this Jewish covenant of circumcision. For Christians, Christ is the New Covenant.

I have to start work again tomorrow maybe JB can fill you in on who it was in Daniel that sought to change the times and laws.

Aspen, because its the third time, it's the same way I raised my son. It just automatic, I don't even realize I do it. When my son disobeyed a nice warning, 2 a stern voice, 3 I'm done telling you.

I never had a discipline problem with my son.

 

[Selene]

Well, Rex, don't you think that you should read the entire Bible so you can understand what is the Law and what is the Covenant? Did you not read that in Exodus 24, God gave Moses a BOOK of the covenant?? (See Exodus 24:7). This Book of the Covenant was NOT the Ten Commandments. WHY? Because AFTER Moses read from the Book of the Covenant, God told Moses to come up to Him AGAIN and He will give him a tablet of stone, which contains the Ten Commandments (See Exodus 24:12). So, reading the entire Exodus Chapter 24, God first gave Moses a Book of Covenant (which he read to the people), and then after reading from the Book of the Covenant, God then gave Moses a stone tablet which contains the Ten Commandments. After that God gave instructions to the people of Israel to build a tabernacle so that they could keep the stone tablets in it.

Now fast forward to Exodux 32. God took one of the Ten Commandments (which is the Jewish Sabbath) and made it into a covenant between Him and the people of Israel. The rest of the Law is something we still have to follow; however, we don't need to follow the Jewish Sabbath. And the things that were written in the Book of Covenant, which Moses read to the people of Israel.....we don't need to follow that as well. Christ is now our new Covenant.

Rex, look closely at Deuteronomy 4:13-14

Deuteronomy 4:13-14 And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, [even] ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone. And the LORD commanded me at that time to teach you statutes and judgments, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go over to possess it.

(Taken from the King James Version.)

The Book of Covenant and the Ten Commandments are not the same. It says "EVEN" the Ten Commandments. Then again, that was already made clear in the Book of Exodus, Chapter 24.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

Read carefully Selene.

God took one of the Ten Commandments (which is the Jewish Sabbath) and made it into a covenant between Him and the people of Israel. The rest of the Law is something we still have to follow; however, we don't need to follow the Jewish Sabbath. And the things that were written in the Book of Covenant, which Moses read to the people of Israel.....we don't need to follow that as well. Christ is now our new Covenant.

Eph 2:12-17 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

-------------------------------------------​

Jer 31:31-33 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.



Heb 8:8-10 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:





For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree? For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:

For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. Rom 11:16-27

 

[aspen]

LOL! It's because it's so unreliable. What's even more unreliable is men, who think they can put GOD in a box. What you fail to see is "without FAITH it's impossible to please him". Isn't it logic 101 to be aware of the creator by the things he has made. Romans 1: ff concordes with this universal experience.

How am I failing to see that without faith it is impossible to please Him? Scientists are not trying to please God, nor are they concerned with faith - they are interested in observing the natural world. Just because you cannot image the natural world without God, does not mean that it is impossible.

Aspen, because its the third time, it's the same way I raised my son. It just automatic, I don't even realize I do it. When my son disobeyed a nice warning, 2 a stern voice, 3 I'm done telling you.
I never had a discipline problem with my son.

In which step do the insults appear? 2.5? Your son must have a great image of himself - yeah, that was sarcasm. Well at least it should be easy for you to make corrections in our conversations - I am not your kid, nor are you my authority.

Now, I am off to read up on your scientist. So far his ideas look interesting,

 

[Rex]

I just putting this thread back on track
I only see two people providing source information for the OP myself and the original poster Divinesoteriology

It would seem that If those that have looked into the science side of the question should be able to provide some source information.
I would also like to say, I don't believe in the evolution of plants, animals or human, I just wanted to add that in-case don't have the time or interest to read. Just hoping to avoid a misunderstanding, many people believe that If you believe in a old creation your some hybrid christian Darwinist, and nether does the source I provided believe or foster evolution. God created each unto its own kind.

Millard Erikson noted what I believe to be a genius perspective on the 6 days of creation that will stop any scientific atheist

"The ideal-time theory says that God created the world in a six-day period a relatively short time ago, but that he made it as if it were billions of years old. This is a genuinely novel and ingenious view. Adam, of course, did not begin his life as a newborn baby. At any point in his life he must have had an apparent (or ideal) age many years older than his actual age (i.e., the number of years since his creation). The ideal-time theory extends this principle. If God created trees, rather than merely tree seeds, they presumably had rings indicating an ideal age rather than their real age. Thus, each element of creation must have begun somewhere in the life cycle."

Erickson, M. J. (1998). Christian theology. (2nd ed., pp. 406–407). Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Book House.

If God could create Adam aged, why couldn't he also do that with the rest of His creation ?

I'm just going to cut to the point, I was simply replying to JB's post, it has nothing to do with carbon dating, or that I agree with everything he says but I do agree with that post.

The truth is I have no problem considering ether young or old creation, like I said I beleive God could and may have created the heavens and the earth in a literal six days or six seconds or in a moment. But this requires we use time, or the scale of time we measure here on earth. 1 day = 24 hours ect. What I find amazing is I can also used proven science from a scientist with some of the highest credentials and believe the earth is also 15 billion years yet created in 6 days as well. You see it's a matter of perspective, time moves slower or faster depending on ether your location, how fast your traveling, or both.

I'm sure you know what geocentric vs heliocentric is, its the old argument of what is the center of our solar system, the sun or the earth. I would now like to apply that to what I'm about to say. Time and location, the fact is that today If you were standing at the point of expansion of the universe looking out the amount of time you would measure would be slightly more than 6 24 hour days, Now us standing on earth looking outward we can measure roughly 15 billions years backwards to where science can see the robin egg shape of the universe when it first began it's expansion.

So you see I can just as easily tell my scientific friends this. So then you believe that it's a compete coincidence that an atomic clock sitting in the center of the expansion of the universe has only registered slightly more than 6-24 hour days, and an identical atomic clock placed with in the gas expanding outward that would someday become the earth has ticked of 15 billion years. I find that a remarkable coincidence. So you see, I can also believe that from where God may have been watching the development of the big bang, "from the point of expansion" only six days have passed. Yet we see billions of years. geocentric vs heliocentric, time, it's all about location.



It's science and its fascinating how time is measured and works depending on the point of observation. Relativity, time is relevant to location mass and speed.

Link for source information http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

Dr. Gerald Schroeder

Dr. Gerald Schroeder earned his BSc, MSc and double-Ph.D. in Nuclear Physics and Earth and Planetary Sciences at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, where he taught physics for seven years. While a consultant at the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission he participated in the formulation of nuclear non-proliferation treaties with the former Soviet Union and witnessed the testing of six atomic bombs. He has served as a consultant to various governments worldwide and has been published in Time, Newsweek and Scientific American. He is the author of Genesis and the Big Bang, the discovery of harmony between modern science and the Bible, now in seven languages. He is also the author of The Science of God and The Hidden Face of God. Dr. Schroeder is currently a lecturer at Aish Jerusalem for the Discovery Seminar, Essentials program, Jerusalem Fellowships, and Executive Learning Center ― focusing on the topics of evolution, cosmology, and age of the universe.


Third time I have posted the link to his book over view
http://www.aish.com/ci/sam/48951136.html

In which step do the insults appear? 2.5? Your son must have a great image of himself - yeah, that was sarcasm. Well at least it should be easy for you to make corrections in our conversations - I am not your kid, nor are you my authority.

Now, I am off to read up on your scientist. So far his ideas look interesting,

I'm sure you know how frustrating it can be to continually repeat yourself, it just as frustrating for you ask for the name of the person I am trying to quote in a thumb nail paragraph, after I have provided the link twice. All the while responding to your comments, it only shows you haven't read what was said. Your replies also bore that point out. As for the 1,2,3 rule of thumb, it's applied in cases where young children sometimes oppose the parent, It is not applied to adult conversations. Unless of course they are acting like children opposing with out basis or grounds, or simple because they can't read and follow the conversation.

This is a forum aspen it not a conversation where two people have to remember what was said, all you need to do is look.
And in that context it's always better to look before commenting. Just as it's accustom to listening, instead of having to tell the person you're speaking with "i'm sorry what did you say? I wasn't paying attention." After they have just disputed a point you made.

 

[aspen]

I wasn't asking you for anything difficult or out of the ordinary, Rex - if you cannot handle a conversation with me, don't do it. I have repeated myself constantly over the past few years I have been here - no need to get rude about it. The fact is, you willfully ignore swaths of information that you do not like, routinely and inresponse to multiple people - at least I am attempting to read up on your information.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

How am I failing to see that without faith it is impossible to please Him? Scientists are not trying to please God, nor are they concerned with faith - they are interested in observing the natural world. Just because you cannot image the natural world without God, does not mean that it is impossible.

So you believe in a literal 6 day creation?

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

People do not realize why the "billions and billions" of years was cooked up in the first place.

The evolutionist begins by saying in the primordial soup a lightning bolt hit a mud puddle .... life began .... and everything we see today is the result of that mud puddle and electricity.

The only way to sell such a hypothesis is to insert a magic formula by saying ...... it takes a really really long time for the amoeba slime to become monkeys and humans.

A really really really really really really long time

Yes siree !!!!!!!!!!!

There you have it .... evolution in a nutshell !!!!!!!!!!

ps nutshells evolved from the slime too ... they were supposed to be butterflies but "random chance" came a long and fiddled with them .

Just amazing what a long period of time can accomplish for no particular reason and by random chance..

 

[aspen]

i do not believe the creation story was written as a scientific account of creation. i believe it was a written account of a revelation given to moses - which took 7 days to reveal. Hey Rex, how many times have i repeated that information? Perhaps this is when i am supposed to throw in the insult? anyway, JB, based on the evidence science has produced, it looks like the Earth was created over billions of years. guess we will not know for sure until we get to heaven

 

[Rex]

i do not believe the creation story was written as a scientific account of creation. i believe it was a written account of a revelation given to moses - which took 7 days to reveal. Hey Rex, how many times have i repeated that information? Perhaps this is when i am supposed to throw in the insult? anyway, JB, based on the evidence science has produced, it looks like the Earth was created over billions of years. guess we will not know for sure until we get to heaven

And what did the evidence I posted find?
1) that If God created every thing in six earth days and made it look old, He left His finger print, because using know science and physics we know that only 6-24 hr earth days have passed at the center of the universe. If you were standing there all modern scientific interments wold measure 6 days old.

2) If God created the universe and by the earth time clock it took 15 billion years we know that If God was observing it from the point of expansion it only took 6-24 hr earth days. another finger print of God. Or the same finger print observed from different directions but confirming the same information 6 days.

If we stand on earth and measure the rate of time at the center of the universe it reads 6 days
If we stand at the center of the universe and look at earth it reads 6 days

So no matter where we stand and look both science and faith tells us that 6 days is the end result

So much for it taking 6 days for Moses to write Gods fiction story about the creation, what say you aspen?

 

[aspen]

guess we will not know for sure until we get to heaven.

 

[Rex]

We all make choices

So no matter where we stand and look both science and faith tells us that 6 days is the end result

So much for it taking 6 days for Moses to write Gods fiction story about the creation, what say you aspen?

guess we will not know for sure until we get to heaven.

I certain that your understanding of the creation of a fiction story being dictated by God to Moses and taking 7days will make for lots of laughs like you have said in the past.