We’ll see how far I get tonight with this.
Posted by Kriss 4/28/2007 2:09 AMat that time only after judgment takes place death is caused by sin committed in the flesh the spirit/soul can only be killed by Judgement from God
You’ve missed my point, Kriss. The curse of death that came from Adam affects the entire world. The reason why animals die, trees die, people die, is because of Adam. Everything is cursed due to the sin of Adam.
Romans 6: 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Creation is under the bondage of corruption, what corruption? That corruption which entered into the world by that one man, Adam, namely death. All things are dieing because of the sin of one man, and that sinfulness is passed from that one man throughout the whole human race. Yet, we have a problem here, now don’t we, Kriss. Your theology has it to where death was already present before the fall of man. Billions of dinosaurs supposedly died up to this point, and the earth is, up to this point, filled with their bones. Man, however you slice the pie, is already under the curse of death because of the sin that was committed in the previous earth-age: Romans 6:23 – For the wages of sin is death. Note, this does not say that the wages of sin that is committed in the flesh, or the wages of sin from Adam onward, but that that wages of sin, all sin, is death. How can God look at a corrupt creation on day six, according to Genesis 1:31 and call it good? This is not the God that I know! God cannot call sin good, for to do so would be to go against the very nature of God! I daresay that if God called everything good, indeed, very good on day six with sin already present, that God is calling sin good, and this is not the God of the Bible.
Posted by Hylke 4/28/2007 9:28AMSo the point is not the age of the earth, but if the bible can be intepreted in way so that scientist are proven right? So basically in this debate, the assumption is made that the bible is 100% truthfull, that's not strange if you're a christian. But the other assumption that is made is much weirder, the assumption that any proof, can only be right if the bible says so, and therefore if the bible doesn't the proof must de nonsense.
I have never made such an assumption, nor have I alluded to making such. I will not say that any truth that is truth must be called truth by the Word of God. What I will say, though, is that where the Word of God touches on such things as science, historicity, and other areas, especially Theology, it is 100% truthful. The Word of God is the final authority in all matters.
Now these two assumptions, that the bible is true, and that any truth is only true if the bible says so, may seem the same, but the first is simply that the bible writes about reality, while the other assumes that the bible dictates reality.Now I'd say, that you can't assume both, either the bible writes about reality, does not have to dictate it, and therefore any scientific knowledge cannot be denied because the bible can't contradict reality, or you assume that any scientific knowledge that, you think, contradicts the bible must be false because the bible is true.It's really a question of who dictates who, do you feel that we should interpret the bibleby means of scientific knowledge, or deny scientific knowledge by means of the bible.
I do not believe that in order to take the Bible for what it says and believe exactly what it says that one must deny scientific knowledge. I believe that Science would be greatly benefited if instead of taking Science to the Word of God to find out how they can make the Word of God fit Science, rather, if they took Word of God and saw how the Science, rightly so-called, fits the Word of God. The Word of God is not a Science text book. But, again, where it touches on issues regarding science, it is 100% accurate.
And that is not just a question of wether or not the bible supports the earths age of billions (not millions) of years, or not, but it is a way more fundamental question, which is the basic distinction between bible funamentalists and non-bible fundamentalists. Now you could discuss this for eternity, if one camp is a bible fundamentalist and the other camp is a non-bible fundamentalist, because neither one of the camps' view of the bible will support the arguments of the other person.
It is a matter, plain and simple, of what the Word of God says.
Posted by Betchevy 4/28/2007 12:36 PM Well....we see here differing degrees of unbelief... writer :Jeremiah is telling the inhabitants of Judah if you don't think God will destroy you look at the destruction He has done in the past when all the hills shook... the armies of the earth do not shake hills as in Jeremiah 4:24 and in Jeremiah 4:26 he clearly stated it was GOD 's presence that had done it not an army...
Tell me, Betchevy, where do you find the support for your argument that Jeremiah is telling Judah to “look back” to creation? He makes no mention of Creation! He makes no mention of a pre-earth age. This is, once again, a “reading-into” the Word of God what is not there. If anyone at the Bible College I attended was accused of eisegetical study there would be proverbial fists flying. This is not a good way to study the Word of God. Read the Word for what it says, Betchevy, not for what you want it to say.
but as I stated you and hykle are both in states of unbelief, He refuses to see the Bilble at all and you writer refuese to see the deep and only want to see what agrees with your religion...
This is a smoke screen, Betchevy, and nothing more. You cannot properly debate with an opponent, and so you ridicule them? Classic.
The Bible teaches about the Millienial age do you accept that? It is when yes God will destroy those who refuse to love Him. Rev 20....
Stay on topic, Betchevy, or start another thread.
the time we are living in is an age and the time of Satans rebellion is also and age and if you do not see it I can no more get you to than I can get hylkie to... because God must awaken those who will see and if I continue to try I am going against the will of Father and I would rather die than do that...
I reckon there is no reason to continue this discussion with you, then, as we are poor wretches outside of the will of God and unable to come to any logical conclusion about what the word of God IS saying because we do not line up with the way that you believe. You still have yet to show anyone of us how Jeremiah is pointing to a pre-age earth. You are losing the argument. Now, pull yourself together, and debate properly.
I can only pray for you both and know I pity you both for being so sadly informed by God, there has to have been a reason for it, for God is not unfair...
You have no basis for saying this. You have not shown how I have come to an improper conclusion with Jeremiah or 2 Peter, instead you are so bent on your own flawed interpretation of Scripture that you are reduced to bashing the character of your opponent rather than addressing the issue at hand. I expected more from you, Betchevy. I did.
Posted by thesuperjag 4/28/2007 12:45PMKriss, Betchevy, Writer, I'm going to play around ye's conclusions...Writer conclusions... ...thou hast believed... Genesis 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.Writer is saying that the Earth is made by God six literal 24 hours day.I Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
Correct so far.
Writer, yea, thou art correct... Adam was the first man that brought sin to Earth in the flesh. (Ezekiel 18:4 - ...the soul that sinneth, it shall die.) (Ezekiel 18:20 - The soul that sinneth, it shall die...) But because the Word was made flesh... (John 1:14) ...Because He was God...(John 1:1) God was made manifest in the flesh. (I Timothy 3:16) Christ shall make us alive. (I Corinthians 15:22)...But beause thou hast know that we have souls in our flesh body... (Genesis 2:7)...Since Christ was with God (John 1:1) It is no doubt that He forknew us... even before we came from our mother's womb...(Jeremiah 1:5) In Him was life. (John 1:4)
Tell me, thesuperjag, where does it say in 1Corinthians 15:22 “In the flesh”? You are adding into the Word of God what is not there.
If Lucy have some of God's angel rebelled against Him, when does that take place to thee? When was their dinosaurs?
As I have said before, after the sixth day of creation. I have already explained dinosaurs to you in the shoutbox.
My conclusion to thine conclusion is...If Earth is 6,000 human years old right now, thou would hast known by now that all of the prohesies of the Old Testament goes a lot quicker than everybody thinks... if 1 human day is also 1 day to God...thus making Peter a liar that he said in II Peter 3:8...therefore he shouldn't be an apostle to God.
I do not come to the same conclusion that you do, thesuperjag. It says that to God 1 day is as a thousand years, and to God 1,000 years is as a day. It goes both ways, not just one. The point that is being made in 2 Peter 3 is that God is not constrained nor influenced with the carrying out of His judgments with time. I would be careful to show a little more respect to the one that you refer to as Lucy. He was at one time the highest angel, and now he is the greatest deceiver. I would not make light of him, for by him many have been deceived and will be deceived into the fires of hell.
To me, it sounds like on Writer's term that God is on the rush to fulfil all prophesies.
I have never said the such. You are making false assumptions. I am only showing what the word of God CLEARLY teaches. Thesuperjag, are you in this debate or not?
Posted by Kriss 4/28/2007 2:18PMto all this is not just mine and Bets idea of doctrine this is truth from Gods word you can read of it in many places starting with Swampfox's excellent study on this site
http://www.christianityboard.com/ear...study-t79.htmlhttp://www.levendwater.org/companion/append146.htmlhttp://www.goodnewsministry.com/topics.htmhttp://www.theseason.org/2peter/2peter1.htmjust for a few I could find many more but I think this proves my point.
The popularity of an argument neither affirms it or discredits it. Note that for several years men thought that the world was flat, and that Columbus would fall off the edge of the earth. Hmm. What does the Word of God say, Kriss, that is the only thing I am interested in here. For it is by the Word of God that our doctrine must either stand or fall, and by no other.
Posted by Betchevy 4/28/2007 3:03 PM another site:
http://www.christiangeology.com/and writer what about the scientists ? you think carbon dating is wrong? the millions of dinosaur bones plaster casts?what about the evidence?2nd Peter 1 ....read the whole thing... if you do not have the "devine nature" if you do not learn the whole word, build on the truth you will be blind .. you cannot see the truth for the desire to be right is more important to you than to learn truth... you think you religion is the endall to all things and it is false, all religion is false and not of God... the truth is Gods domain and He made science he made the thing science is made up of Gravity, nature, and your religion cannot resolve oitself to these things, then it is false. God is true in all things and will always remain so... if you will not see you are blind and will remain so...the end..period....................................... .................................................. .................................................. .................
Do a study on Carbon Dating through such sites as answersingenesis.com and drdino.com, etc. I think you will find that it is not as accurate as you think. Once again, instead of addressing what I have said, you are attacking me. Why don’t you take an honest look at what I have written about Jeremiah? I see… it is because I do not have your divine nature. I am too dumb to read and interpret the Word of God for what it says. Hmm. Until you address my posts in a proper manner, Betchevy, we are done. I will from this point on, ignore anything posted by you. You have only one way to gain my attention to what you are saying, and that is to address Jeremiah and what I have written there. I have spent too much time on my responses to be kicked out based on the fact that I do not have your divine nature to see what is not there. You have insulted me. But I do not make this stand based upon hurt pride, but based upon wasted time if you will not take an honest look at what I have written.
Posted by Kriss 4/28/2007 10:50 PM My personal opinion not backed by any scripture just my thoughts are that we were inocent of character or nature like Adam and Eve in the first earth age. And Satan being the given the earth to watch over we followed his rebellion naiively much as Adam an Eve did in the Garden thus God showed us mercy and love by giving all a second chance as I said this just my opinion.
You make objective statements and claim no support for them in scripture. In the court of law, Kriss, you would have been laughed at if you tried to defend someone with such logic. I am not interested in what your opinions are, but what the Word of God says. But, I suppose that in order to hold to a pre-earth age, one has no other choice but to go off of opinions. Where does the Bible ever mention anything about a second chance in regard to salvation of a pre-adamic race? What about the angels? The Bible teaches no such thing! You prove my point here clearly. You are willing to teach something that the Word of God makes no mention of:
And Satan being the given the earth to watch over we followed his rebellion naiively much as Adam an Eve did in the Garden thus God showed us mercy and love by giving all a second chance as I said this just my opinion. And if you are willing to teach an objective statement as truth without any support, what does this do to your credibility when you try to teach something else that is not clearly taught within scripture? How do we know that the other is not just merely an opinion? Rule of thumb in debates, mention nothing that is subjective as objective. It doesn’t help your credibility.
Posted by Kriss 4/28/2007 11:48I think I understand what you are saying but that is not the only verse that term is used Here it is Paul talking to us Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in loveI do not know at what time we all created just that we were choosen in him before the world proving only that we were before this world and way before the sixth day creation
Kriss, do you believe that God knew about 9/11 before the foundation of the World? Does that mean that 9/11 happened before the foundation of the world? Something does not need to be in existence for God to know about it. That is known as omniscience and omnipotence. I sometimes wonder if there is any point to continuing this. Writer