A Biblical Lesson on Spiritual Discernment

[IndianaRob]

Grammatical referents.

"He" refers back to "prince" refers back to "Messiah the Prince".

Honestly, grammar can't be used to settle the "he" in Daniel 9:27.

People lean on the "nearest antecedent" rule to point it at "the prince that shall come" but that's a tendency, not a law. Pronouns skip the nearest noun to point at the main subject all the time, and that's perfectly legitimate grammar.

What actually decides it is context, the flow of the prophecy, how you read the covenant and the ceasing of sacrifice. Grammar's not the tool for this one.

 

[David in NJ]

Honestly, grammar can't be used to settle the "he" in Daniel 9:27.

People lean on the "nearest antecedent" rule to point it at "the prince that shall come" but that's a tendency, not a law. Pronouns skip the nearest noun to point at the main subject all the time, and that's perfectly legitimate grammar.

What actually decides it is context, the flow of the prophecy, how you read the covenant and the ceasing of sacrifice. Grammar's not the tool for this one.

Well the grammar is part of the flow of prophecy.

Also, the grammatical flow" is self evident with the introduction of a newly defined prince who is called "the prince of the people"

 

[David in NJ]

Honestly, grammar can't be used to settle the "he" in Daniel 9:27.

People lean on the "nearest antecedent" rule to point it at "the prince that shall come" but that's a tendency, not a law. Pronouns skip the nearest noun to point at the main subject all the time, and that's perfectly legitimate grammar.

What actually decides it is context, the flow of the prophecy, how you read the covenant and the ceasing of sacrifice. Grammar's not the tool for this one.

Post 202 edited

 

[IndianaRob]

Well the grammar is part of the flow of prophecy.

Also, the grammatical flow" is self evident with the introduction of a newly defined prince who is called "the prince of the people"

Im saying that you can’t prove one way or the other based on grammar. The only we way to know what “he” is referring to is by understanding who confirms the covenant and who died in the middle of that week.

The prophecy is Jesus confirming the covenant God gave to Abraham by dying on the cross in the middle of the week.

 

[Truth7t7]

Grammatically Verse 25 identifies "Messiah the Prince"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "Messiah the Prince" is CUT-OFF = Messiah is now removed from the sequence of events
Grammatically in Verse 26 a new prince arrives and he is called "the prince of the people"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "the prince of the people" comes to destroy
Grammitically in Verse 27 the "he" is referring to "the prince of the people"

Grammatically a THIRD person is mentioned = "on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

How many spiritual "princes" in Daniel???

Your 100% Correct! They're trying to turn Jesus Christ into Daniel's (Little Horn/The Antichrist) Scary!

Scripture interprets itself before your eyes, will the reader deny God's words of truth?

Daniel 9:26-27 (the prince that shall come) is Daniel's (Little Horn) "He" will destroy the temple/sanctuary and stop the daily sacrifice as seen in Daniel 8:9-11

Conclusion: The "He" in Daniel 9:27 is (The Little Horn) "He" will stop the daily sacrifice and destroy the sanctuary/temple, "He" will have a human body that is destroyed and given to (the lake of fire/burning flame) at the Lord's second coming in final judgement (The Books Were Opened)

"He" the (Little Horn) will be on this earth in a living body at the Lord's second coming in fire and final judgement, this is (The Future Consummation) just as Daniel 9:27 teaches

Jesus Is The Lord

Daniel 7:8-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[David in NJ]

Im saying that you can’t prove one way or the other based on grammar. The only we way to know what “he” is referring to is by understanding who confirms the covenant and who died in the middle of that week.

The prophecy is Jesus confirming the covenant God gave to Abraham by dying on the cross in the middle of the week.

Gramatically/the flow of prophecy remove Messiah the Prince as He is Cut-Off = put to death

Gramatically/flow of prophecy a NEW prince comes into the Prophetic Picture as "the prince of the people"

How many spiritual princes are in Daniel???

 

[David in NJ]

Im saying that you can’t prove one way or the other based on grammar. The only we way to know what “he” is referring to is by understanding who confirms the covenant and who died in the middle of that week.

The prophecy is Jesus confirming the covenant God gave to Abraham by dying on the cross in the middle of the week.

Please review more carefully:

Grammatically Verse 25 identifies "Messiah the Prince"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "Messiah the Prince" is CUT-OFF = Messiah is now removed from the sequence of events
Grammatically in Verse 26 a new prince arrives and he is called "the prince of the people"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "the prince of the people" comes to destroy
Grammitically in Verse 27 the "he" is referring to "the prince of the people"

Grammatically a THIRD person is mentioned = "on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

How many spiritual "princes" in Daniel???

 

[IndianaRob]

Gramatically/the flow of prophecy remove Messiah the Prince as He is Cut-Off = put to death

Gramatically/flow of prophecy a NEW prince comes into the Prophetic Picture as "the prince of the people"

How many spiritual princes are in Daniel???

One - Jesus. The prince that shall come was a literal person.

 

[David in NJ]

Scripture interprets itself before your eyes,

100% CORRECT

will you deny God's words of truth?

ABSOLUTELY NOT

 

[David in NJ]

One - Jesus. The prince that shall come was a literal person.

TWO princes in Daniel 9

Prince #1 is "MESSIAH the Prince"

prince #2 is "the prince of the people"

How many spiritual princes are mentioned in Daniel?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Grammatically Verse 25 identifies "Messiah the Prince"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "Messiah the Prince" is CUT-OFF = Messiah is now removed from the sequence of events

Jesus being cut off refers to Him being crucified, not being removed from the sequence of events. He is the one in verse 27 who confirms the covenant, which is the new covenant, which made an end of the old covenant sacrifices and offerings by making them obsolete (Hebrews 8-10).

Grammatically in Verse 26 a new prince arrives and he is called "the prince of the people"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "the prince of the people" comes to destroy
Grammitically in Verse 27 the "he" is referring to "the prince of the people"

Grammatically a THIRD person is mentioned = "on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

How many spiritual "princes" in Daniel???

You are very off base here. I disagree that it refers to some other prince in verse 26, but even if it did, the focus there is on the PEOPLE of the prince, not the prince himself. The last individual focused on is the antecedent of the "he" in Daniel 9:27, and that is the Messiah.

 

[covenantee]

Grammatically Verse 25 identifies "Messiah the Prince"

True.

Grammatically in Verse 26 "Messiah the Prince" is CUT-OFF = Messiah is now removed from the sequence of events

Reference to Messiah's crucifixion does not preclude continued reference to Him.

Grammatically in Verse 26 a new prince arrives and he is called "the prince of the people"

The reference is to "the people of the prince", not "the prince of the people". Via grammatical referent back to verse 25, the prince continues to be Messiah.

Grammatically in Verse 26 "the prince of the people" comes to destroy

"The people of the prince that shall come", i.e. Messiah, destroyed the city and sanctuary. The Romans and Jews were Messiah's agents, i.e. people, to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the apostate nation..

Grammitically in Verse 27 the "he" is referring to "the prince of the people"

Yes, verse 27 is grammatically referring to the prince in verse 26.

Grammatically a THIRD person is mentioned = "on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

Messiah was the Desolator in command and control of the people accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction. The "wing of abominations" refers to the ensigns of the eagle worshiped and carried into battle by the Roman armies, an abomination to the Jews.

How many spiritual "princes" in Daniel???

One. Messiah.
Spiritually and literally.

 

[Truth7t7]

100% CORRECT


ABSOLUTELY NOT

Sorry wasn't intended for you, post revised

Revised: "will the reader deny God's words of truth?"

 

[IndianaRob]

Please review more carefully:

Grammatically Verse 25 identifies "Messiah the Prince"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "Messiah the Prince" is CUT-OFF = Messiah is now removed from the sequence of events
Grammatically in Verse 26 a new prince arrives and he is called "the prince of the people"
Grammatically in Verse 26 "the prince of the people" comes to destroy
Grammitically in Verse 27 the "he" is referring to "the prince of the people"

Grammatically a THIRD person is mentioned = "on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate,

How many spiritual "princes" in Daniel???

The entire prophecy is about Jesus, the prince to come is an explanation of what would be done to the people who cut him off.

 

[David in NJ]

True.

Reference to Messiah's crucifixion does not preclude continued reference to Him.

The reference is to "the people of the prince", not "the prince of the people". Via grammatical referent back to verse 25, the prince continues to be Messiah.

"The people of the prince that shall come", i.e. Messiah, destroyed the city and sanctuary. The Romans and Jews were Messiah's agents, i.e. people, to accomplish His purposes of judgment and destruction upon the apostate nation..

Yes, verse 27 is grammatically referring to the prince in verse 26.

Messiah was the Desolator in command and control of the people accomplishing His purposes of judgment and destruction. The "wing of abominations" refers to the ensigns of the eagle worshiped and carried into battle by the Roman armies, an abomination to the Jews.

One. Messiah.
Spiritually and literally.

There are many spiritual princes spoken of in Daniel

Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19And he said, “O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!”

So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

20Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

 

[IndianaRob]

TWO princes in Daniel 9

Prince #1 is "MESSIAH the Prince"

prince #2 is "the prince of the people"

How many spiritual princes are mentioned in Daniel?

What do you mean by spiritual princes? I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Honestly, grammar can't be used to settle the "he" in Daniel 9:27.

People lean on the "nearest antecedent" rule to point it at "the prince that shall come" but that's a tendency, not a law. Pronouns skip the nearest noun to point at the main subject all the time, and that's perfectly legitimate grammar.

What actually decides it is context, the flow of the prophecy, how you read the covenant and the ceasing of sacrifice. Grammar's not the tool for this one.

I agree. Using the grammar rules that some use for Daniel 9:27, we would have to conclude that 2 Thessalonians 2:9 is talking about Jesus rather than "that wicked" (man of sin/lawlessness).

2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

The last person referenced in verse 8 there is the Lord and then in verse 9 it says "even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan". According to normal grammar rules, the antecedent of "him" in verse 9 would be the Lord, but, obviously, it's not saying that His coming "is after the working of Satan". Verse 9 is obviously talking about "that wicked" and not the Lord.

 

[David in NJ]

The entire prophecy is about Jesus, the prince to come is an explanation of what would be done to the people who cut him off.

Daniel contains prophecy of MESSIAH and of Anichrist(s)

 

[David in NJ]

What do you mean by spiritual princes? I don’t understand what point you’re trying to make.

There are many spiritual princes spoken of in Daniel

Then again, the one having the likeness of a man touched me and strengthened me. 19And he said, “O man greatly beloved, fear not! Peace be to you; be strong, yes, be strong!”

So when he spoke to me I was strengthened, and said, “Let my lord speak, for you have strengthened me.”

20Then he said, “Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

 

[covenantee]

There are many spiritual princes spoken of in Daniel

One in Daniel 9:24-27.
Messiah the Prince.