A Biblical Lesson on Spiritual Discernment

[Davidpt]

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Yes but not in the way you think. I will try and explain later since it is somewhat difficult to explain in a sentence or 2. Right now I'm just not prepared to try and type all of that out. Maybe later, assuming I don't forget.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

If meaning Titus, why even mention a prince at all? Why not just say this instead if it is allegedly involving 70 AD?

and the people that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


And if anyone connects that with 70 AD, they would obviously know that this is meaning the Romans and it is connected with Titus. therefore, it is reduntant if 70 AD is meant, that it needs to also mention a prince that shall come. It's obvious via what history recorded that these people in question, if meaning the Romans, did these things via the commands of a prince. No one thinks they just decided to do these things on their own if meaning 70 AD

IMO, too many interpreters in here are thinking carnally rather than spiritually, in regard to the latter clauses in both verse 26 and 27.

In the book of Daniel, elsewhere when the Hebrew word for destroyed is used, it is never meaning in a literal sense, such as destroying literal cities and literal temples. I'm not arguing that that applies to everything in the OT that uses this same Hebrew word. I'm only meaning in the book of Daniel.

For example. destroy---shachath


Daniel 11:17 He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting(shachath) her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.

Daniel 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy(shachath) wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy(shachath) the mighty and the holy people.

What one should be doing is interpreting some of these things in Daniel 9:26 in the sense Daniel 8:24 is meaning. In the NT the body of Christ equals both a city and a sanctuary.

Jesus referred to Daniel 9:26-27 in relation to the destruction of the physical city and sanctuary, but you don't seem to want to take that into account.

And even though some clearly already know that, they interpret the clause in question in Daniel 9:26 in a literal manner, thus a carnal manner, rather than in a spiritual manner such as the NT does when involving a city and a temple, such as in Revelation 11:1-2, for example. Let's not take that in the literal sense, where I fully agree, but let's take the city and temple meant in Daniel 9:26 in a literal sense, where I disagree entirely. And the reasons why, I already explained above.

Where does Revelation 11 refer to Daniel 9:26-27? Where is there any mention of Jesus being cut off in Revelation 11? I believe you are trying to relate unrelated passages. Whereas Matthew 24:15-22 clearly does relate to Daniel 9:26-27 because what spawned Matthew 24:15-22 was Jesus saying that the physical temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. Therefore, the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary fits the context of what Jesus talked about, but does not fit the context of what Revelation 11 is about.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice in the verses below?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Did Jesus Christ make the old covenant daily sacrifices and offerings obsolete? Yes, He did. So, why wouldn't you consider that a passage that references the Messiah in relation to the ending of sacrifices and offerings relates to Jesus making an end of old covenant sacrifices and offerings? Instead, you resort to claiming that Daniel 9:24-27 doesn't refer to Jesus at all. That is utterly ludicrous and not an interpretation that anyone can take seriously. It specifically refers to "Messiah the Prince" and "the Messiah", not some fake Messiah.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My question has been posted for several days to Israelite, it's time that he responds before asking questions of me

Nonsense! Stop lying. You've done something similar to this before and then I proved that I asked the question first. The same is true this time. Stop lying. You're just trying to get out of having to answer my question. You think I can't see that?

 

[IndianaRob]

You give complete disregard to the simple scripture that was presented before your eyes as you divert away from Daniel 8:9-11 below "Why"?

Daniel 8:9-11 clearly shows "The Little Horn" being the "He" "Him" and by "Him" the daily sacrifice is stopped, and the sanctuary/temple is destroyed

Daniel 9:26-27 states "By Him" was the daily sacrifice taken away, the very same event in a parallel teaching as seen in Daniel 8:11

The "He" in Daniel 9:27 is the very same "He" in Daniel 8:11, and the "He" that stops the daily sacrifice is Daniel's (Little Horn) as seen in Daniel 8:9 below

The scripture presented is simple and explained in detail, will you continue to claim that the "He" in Daniel 9:27 is Jesus Christ, When it's clearly presented before your eyes that the "He" is Daniel's "Little Horn"?

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

Daniel 9:26-27KJV
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The death of Jesus caused the daily sacrifice and oblation to cease.

The little horn took the daily sacrifice away by destroying the temple.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

My question has been posted to you like five times over the past week, answer my question

Liar. I asked my question first and you haven't answered it. I promise that I will answer your question if you first act like an adult and answer my question that I asked first.

 

[Truth7t7]

Yes but not in the way you think. I will try and explain later since it is somewhat difficult to explain in a sentence or 2. Right now I'm just not prepared to try and type all of that out. Maybe later, assuming I don't forget.

The answer is "Yes" Daniel's (Little Horn) stops the daily sacrifice below in Daniel 8:9-11

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

This very same (Little Horn) is the "He" in Daniel 9:27 that stops the daily sacrifice, the very same sacrifice in "Parallel Teachings" in Daniel 8:9-11 & Daniel 9:26-27

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

This very same (Little Horn) will be in a physical body that's slain and destroyed at the Lord's "Future" second coming

Daniel 7:10-11 below clearly shows the Lord's Second coming and final judgement, the (Little Horn) is present on this earth at this time, as his living body will be killed/slain and destroyed at the final judgement?

Daniel 7:10-11KJV
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.
9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Merriam-Webster
Definition of consummation

1: the act of consummating the consummation of a contract by mutual signature specifically : the consummating of a marriage
2: the ultimate end

Daniel's AOD (Even Until The Consummation) "Future" (The End)

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Davidpt]

Jesus referred to Daniel 9:26-27 in relation to the destruction of the physical city and sanctuary, but you don't seem to want to take that into account.


Where does Revelation 11 refer to Daniel 9:26-27? Where is there any mention of Jesus being cut off in Revelation 11? I believe you are trying to relate unrelated passages. Whereas Matthew 24:15-22 clearly does relate to Daniel 9:26-27 because what spawned Matthew 24:15-22 was Jesus saying that the physical temple buildings standing at that time would be destroyed. Therefore, the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the sanctuary fits the context of what Jesus talked about, but does not fit the context of what Revelation 11 is about.

I will try and answer these things in this manner.


Destroying someone can involve more than one idea. It can mean killing them, corrupting them, ruining them, or bringing them to spiritual desolation. The Hebrew word 'shachath' itself is broad enough to encompass more than merely demolishing physical structures.

If, in the NT, God's people are identified as both God's city and His temple, then why could the same principle not apply to the city and sanctuary in Daniel 9:26-27?

That interpretation does not deny that 70 AD occurred or that Jerusalem and the temple were literally destroyed. Rather, it questions whether the latter clauses of Daniel 9:26-27 are actually prophesying that event.

The NT repeatedly applies temple and city imagery to the people of God. If God's people can be spiritually understood as the temple and the holy city, then the destruction of the city and sanctuary could likewise refer to the destruction, corruption, persecution, or desolation of God's covenant people, rather than being restricted to the demolition of literal buildings. For example, Revelation 13:7. That would fit the idea of persecution. And if any of them fall away, it would fit the idea of corruption and desolation.

IOW, recognizing the spiritual significance of these clauses does not erase the historical events of 70 AD. It simply asks whether Daniel's prophecy is speaking of something deeper than those historical events alone. Is seeking a deeper meaning now all of a sudden not allowed when it comes to these clauses in question?

 

[Truth7t7]

The little horn took the daily sacrifice away by destroying the temple.

Yes the (Little Horn) took away the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:9-11KJV, and this very same sacrifice being taken away in its parallel teaching is seen in Daniel 9:27, the "He" in 9:27 is Daniel's (Little Horn) not Jesus Christ as many falsely cliam

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Destroying someone can involve more than one idea. It can mean killing them, corrupting them, ruining them, or bringing them to spiritual desolation.

Sure. You may have noticed that I said nothing otherwise. But, the context of scripture is what determines how the word is being used.

The Hebrew word 'shachath' itself is broad enough to encompass more than merely demolishing physical structures.

You don't have to convince me of this. I never said otherwise and I'm fully aware that most words have multiple meanings.

If, in the NT, God's people are identified as both God's city and His temple, then why could the same principle not apply to the city and sanctuary in Daniel 9:26-27?

It could, if that was the context of what the passage is talking about. But, it's not. Jesus specifically said that the city and the temple would be physically destroyed in passages like Luke 19:41-44, Luke 21:6-7, Luke 21:20-24, Matthew 22:7, Matthew 24:1-2, Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:1-2 and Mark 13:14-20. And He referred to that in relation to a prophecy in Daniel. It should be easy to see that He was referring to Daniel 9:26-27 in those passages since that passage also refers to the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary.

That interpretation does not deny that 70 AD occurred or that Jerusalem and the temple were literally destroyed. Rather, it questions whether the latter clauses of Daniel 9:26-27 are actually prophesying that event.

If Daniel 9:26-27 doesn't prophesy the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, then what prophecy does? None? That's not a reasonable conclusion.

The NT repeatedly applies temple and city imagery to the people of God. If God's people can be spiritually understood as the temple and the holy city, then the destruction of the city and sanctuary could likewise refer to the destruction, corruption, persecution, or desolation of God's covenant people, rather than being restricted to the demolition of literal buildings.

Yes, it that is true, but because of what Jesus taught in relation to what Daniel prophesied, that means Daniel 9:26-27 is talking about the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple since that is what Jesus talked about in relation to something that Daniel prophesied. Jesus never talked about the destruction of the church in any sense. Instead, He said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church (Matthew 16:18).

For example, Revelation 13:7. That would fit the idea of persecution. And if any of them fall away, it would fit the idea of corruption and desolation.

IOW, recognizing the spiritual significance of these clauses does not erase the historical events of 70 AD. It simply asks whether Daniel's prophecy is speaking of something deeper than those historical events alone. Is seeking a deeper meaning now all of a sudden not allowed when it comes to these clauses in question?

So, are you saying that you think Daniel 9:26-27 prophesies about both the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD and also a later "destruction, corruption, persecution, or desolation of God's covenant people"? So, you see it as a dual prophecy?

 

[Truth7t7]

Did Jesus Christ make the old covenant daily sacrifices and offerings obsolete? Yes, He did.

Daniel 8:9-11 Does Daniel's (Little Horn) stop the daily sacrifice taking place "literally" upon this earth "Yes" and this event has absolutely nothing to do with the Cross of Calvary and the New Covenant in the Lord's blood.

A Literal Sacrifice Taken Away, A Literal Sanctuary Cast Down "On This Earth"

Daniel 8:9-11KJV
9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.

This very same (Little Horn) is the "He" in Daniel 9:27 that stops the daily sacrifice, the very same sacrifice in "Parallel Teachings" in Daniel 8:9-11 & Daniel 9:26-27

Daniel 9:27KJV
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Truth7t7]

Sure. You may have noticed that I said nothing otherwise. But, the context of scripture is what determines how the word is being used.


You don't have to convince me of this. I never said otherwise and I'm fully aware that most words have multiple meanings.


It could, if that was the context of what the passage is talking about. But, it's not. Jesus specifically said that the city and the temple would be physically destroyed in passages like Luke 19:41-44, Luke 21:6-7, Luke 21:20-24, Matthew 22:7, Matthew 24:1-2, Matthew 24:15-22, Mark 13:1-2 and Mark 13:14-20. And He referred to that in relation to a prophecy in Daniel. It should be easy to see that He was referring to Daniel 9:26-27 in those passages since that passage also refers to the destruction of the city of Jerusalem and the sanctuary.

Yes Jesus was referring to Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15, this starts the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 as the inhabitants of Jerusalem flee to the mountains

Yes Matthew 24:29-31 shows that the second coming literally takes place "Immediately After" the tribulation, and this AOD, Great Tribulation, And Second Coming are future events unfulfilled

If Daniel 9:26-27 doesn't prophesy the physical destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD, then what prophecy does? None? That's not a reasonable conclusion.

Daniel 9:26-27 is future as you've been shown several times, the (Little Horn) will be present on this earth until the Consummation/Ultimate End

Jesus Is The Lord

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes Jesus was referring to Daniel's AOD in Matthew 24:15, this starts the great tribulation seen in Matthew 24:21 as the inhabitants of Jerusalem flee to the mountains

Yes Matthew 24:29-31 shows that the second coming literally takes place "Immediately After" the tribulation, and this AOD, Great Tribulation, And Second Coming are future events unfulfilled

Daniel 9:26-27 is future as you've been shown several times, the (Little Horn) will be present on this earth until the Consummation/Ultimate End

You've been shown the truth of the matter many times and you still deny it. That means continuing to show you the truth is pointless. Anyone who denies that Daniel 9:24-27 has anything at all to do with Jesus, as you do, has no discernment whatsoever and no one can get through to such a person.

 

[IndianaRob]

Yes the (Little Horn) took away the daily sacrifice in Daniel 8:9-11KJV, and this very same sacrifice being taken away in its parallel teaching is seen in Daniel 9:27, the "He" in 9:27 is Daniel's (Little Horn) not Jesus Christ as many falsely cliam

I disagree obviously, but out of curiosity, do you believe the death of Jesus ended God’s requirement for a daily sacrifice?

 

[Truth7t7]

You've been shown the truth of the matter many times and you still deny it. That means continuing to show you the truth is pointless. Anyone who denies that Daniel 9:24-27 has anything at all to do with Jesus, as you do, has no discernment whatsoever and no one can get through to such a person.

Your claim is 100% False, my teaching and belief is (Messiah Cut Off) represents a future (Israel/Jerusalem) building the wall and street to Messiah The Prince, and when future armies surround Jerusalem in fulfilling the gentiles and they stop the building (Messiah Is Cutoff) and building to Messiah stops

On the other hand you believe and teach (Messiah Cut Off) means Jesus dying on the Cross Of Calvary, and I Strongly Disagree