A Biblical Lesson on Spiritual Discernment

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rwb

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By whose opinion is the capitalization in 1611 erratic?
Here is all of Dan 9, please point out where this erratic capitalization occurs.

Da 9:1 ¶ In the first yeere of Darius the sonne of Ahasuerus, of the seede of the Medes, which was made King ouer the realme of the Caldeans,
Da 9:2 In the first yeere of his reigne, I Daniel vnderstood by bookes the number of the yeeres, whereof the word of the Lord came to Ieremiah the Prophet, that he would accomplish seuentie yeeres in the desolations of Ierusalem.
Da 9:3 And I set my face vnto the Lord God to seeke by prayer, and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.
Da 9:4 ¶ And I prayed vnto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said; O Lord, the great and dreadfull God, keeping the couenant, and mercy to them that loue him, and to them that keepe his Commandements:
Da 9:5 We haue sinned, and haue committed iniquitie, and haue done wickedly, and haue rebelled, euen by departing from thy precepts, and from thy iudgements.
Da 9:6 Neither haue we hearkened vnto thy seruants the Prophets, which spake in thy Name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
Da 9:7 O Lord, righteousnes belongeth vnto thee, but vnto vs confusion of faces, as at this day: to the men of Iudah, and to the inhabitants of Ierusalem, and vnto all Israel that are neere, and that are farre off, through all the countreys whither thou hast driuen them, because of their trespasse, that they haue trespassed against thee.
Da 9:8 O Lord, to vs belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers; because we haue sinned against thee.
Da 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgiuenesses, though we haue rebelled against him.
Da 9:10 Neither haue we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walke in his Lawes which he set before vs, by his seruants the Prophets.
Da 9:11 Yea, all Israel haue transgressed thy Law, euen by departing, that they might not obey thy voice, therefore the curse is powred vpon vs, and the othe that is written in the Law of Moses the seruant of God, because we haue sinned against him.
Da 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words which he spake against vs, and against our Iudges that iudged vs, by bringing vpon vs a great euill: for vnder the whole heauen hath not bene done, as hath bene done vpon Ierusalem.
Da 9:13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this euill is come vpon vs: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turne from our iniquities, and vnderstand thy trueth.
Da 9:14 Therefore hath the Lord watched vpon the euil, and brought it vpon vs: for the Lord our God is righteous in all his workes, which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Da 9:15 And now O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renowne, as at this day, wee haue sinned, wee haue done wickedly.
Da 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousnes, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy furie bee turned away from thy citie Ierusalem, thy holy Mountaine: because for our sinnes, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Ierusalem and thy people are become a reproch to all that are about vs.
Da 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, heare the prayer of thy seruant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine vpon thy Sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lords sake.
Da 9:18 O my God, encline thine eare and heare: open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, & the city, which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
Da 9:19 O Lord heare, O Lord forgiue, O Lord hearken and doe: deferre not for thine owne sake, O my God: for thy citie, & thy people are called by thy Name.
Da 9:20 ¶ And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sinne, and the sinne of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God, for the holy Mountaine of my God:
Da 9:21 Yea whiles I was speaking in praier, euen the man Gabriel, whom I had seene in the vision at the beginning, being caused to flie swiftly, touched me about the time of the euening oblation.
Da 9:22 And he informed mee, and talked with mee, and said; O Daniel, I am now come foorth to giue thee skill and vnderstanding.
Da 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandement came forth, and I am come to shew thee: for thou art greatly beloued: therefore vnderstand the matter, & consider the vision.
Da 9:24 Seuentie weekes are determined vpon thy people, and vpon thy holy citie, to finish the transgression, and to make an ende of sinnes, and to make reconciliation for iniquitie, and to bring in euerlasting righteousnes, and to seale vp the vision and prophecie, and to anoynt the most Holy.
Da 9:25 Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
Da 9:27 And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation, & that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.
 

IndianaRob

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The timeline points not only to re-building, but also to the advent of Christ coming to earth in mortal, human flesh.

The pivotal moment for the rebuilding of the Temple is the decree issued by Cyrus, King of Persia. This decree is recorded in Ezra 1:1-4:
The way I see it, the timeline does not point to rebuilding the earthly city or temple. It begins with the command to restore and to build Jerusalem. The question is: restore what?

What was the purpose of Elijah, who came in the form of John the Baptist? To restore all things. Why did Jesus come? To establish the heavenly Jerusalem.

I understand that you do not agree with my overall interpretation, but would you agree that God did decree John the Baptist to come in the spirit and power of Elijah to restore all things, and that Jesus came to establish the heavenly Jerusalem?
 

covenantee

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In 17th-century English, there were no strict standardized rules for capitalization. Typesetters often capitalized nouns simply to give them emphasis, to break up the text, or purely based on personal preference. If you read Daniel 9 in the 1611 edition, you will see words like "Weeks," "Street," "Wall," and "Covenant" capitalized.
Not erratic if it is used; entirely intentional to convey emphasis and uniqueness.

There is only one unique interval of 70 Weeks in Scripture.
There was only one unique Jerusalem Street ("the Street") being rebuilt.
There was only one unique Jerusalem Wall ("the Wall") being rebuilt.
There is only one unique New Covenant in Scripture.
 
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rwb

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The way I see it, the timeline does not point to rebuilding the earthly city or temple. It begins with the command to restore and to build Jerusalem. The question is: restore what?

What was the purpose of Elijah, who came in the form of John the Baptist? To restore all things. Why did Jesus come? To establish the heavenly Jerusalem.

I understand that you do not agree with my overall interpretation, but would you agree that God did decree John the Baptist to come in the spirit and power of Elijah to restore all things, and that Jesus came to establish the heavenly Jerusalem?

Of course, I agree with John the Baptist coming before Christ in the spirit and power of Elijah. Not to restore all things but to prepare the way for Christ by preaching repentance from sin for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3:1-3 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Christ came with the Kingdom of God from heaven to build His Church. As I've already said when man is born again we both know and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God, for Christ tells us the Kingdom of God is within us.

Yes, the timeline does point to rebuilding the earthly city and temple, and that began when the King gave a decree, but it was not built without much hostility and persecution from those who did not want Jerusalem to be built again.
 

Davidpt

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Here is all of Dan 9, please point out where this erratic capitalization occurs.

Da 9:1 ¶ In the first yeere of Darius the sonne of Ahasuerus, of the seede of the Medes, which was made King ouer the realme of the Caldeans,
Da 9:2 In the first yeere of his reigne, I Daniel vnderstood by bookes the number of the yeeres, whereof the word of the Lord came to Ieremiah the Prophet, that he would accomplish seuentie yeeres in the desolations of Ierusalem.
Da 9:3 And I set my face vnto the Lord God to seeke by prayer, and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes.
Da 9:4 ¶ And I prayed vnto the Lord my God, and made my confession, and said; O Lord, the great and dreadfull God, keeping the couenant, and mercy to them that loue him, and to them that keepe his Commandements:
Da 9:5 We haue sinned, and haue committed iniquitie, and haue done wickedly, and haue rebelled, euen by departing from thy precepts, and from thy iudgements.
Da 9:6 Neither haue we hearkened vnto thy seruants the Prophets, which spake in thy Name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
Da 9:7 O Lord, righteousnes belongeth vnto thee, but vnto vs confusion of faces, as at this day: to the men of Iudah, and to the inhabitants of Ierusalem, and vnto all Israel that are neere, and that are farre off, through all the countreys whither thou hast driuen them, because of their trespasse, that they haue trespassed against thee.
Da 9:8 O Lord, to vs belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers; because we haue sinned against thee.
Da 9:9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgiuenesses, though we haue rebelled against him.
Da 9:10 Neither haue we obeyed the voice of the Lord our God, to walke in his Lawes which he set before vs, by his seruants the Prophets.
Da 9:11 Yea, all Israel haue transgressed thy Law, euen by departing, that they might not obey thy voice, therefore the curse is powred vpon vs, and the othe that is written in the Law of Moses the seruant of God, because we haue sinned against him.
Da 9:12 And he hath confirmed his words which he spake against vs, and against our Iudges that iudged vs, by bringing vpon vs a great euill: for vnder the whole heauen hath not bene done, as hath bene done vpon Ierusalem.
Da 9:13 As it is written in the Law of Moses, all this euill is come vpon vs: yet made we not our prayer before the Lord our God, that we might turne from our iniquities, and vnderstand thy trueth.
Da 9:14 Therefore hath the Lord watched vpon the euil, and brought it vpon vs: for the Lord our God is righteous in all his workes, which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
Da 9:15 And now O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renowne, as at this day, wee haue sinned, wee haue done wickedly.
Da 9:16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousnes, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy furie bee turned away from thy citie Ierusalem, thy holy Mountaine: because for our sinnes, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Ierusalem and thy people are become a reproch to all that are about vs.
Da 9:17 Now therefore, O our God, heare the prayer of thy seruant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine vpon thy Sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lords sake.
Da 9:18 O my God, encline thine eare and heare: open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, & the city, which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
Da 9:19 O Lord heare, O Lord forgiue, O Lord hearken and doe: deferre not for thine owne sake, O my God: for thy citie, & thy people are called by thy Name.
Da 9:20 ¶ And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sinne, and the sinne of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God, for the holy Mountaine of my God:
Da 9:21 Yea whiles I was speaking in praier, euen the man Gabriel, whom I had seene in the vision at the beginning, being caused to flie swiftly, touched me about the time of the euening oblation.
Da 9:22 And he informed mee, and talked with mee, and said; O Daniel, I am now come foorth to giue thee skill and vnderstanding.
Da 9:23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandement came forth, and I am come to shew thee: for thou art greatly beloued: therefore vnderstand the matter, & consider the vision.
Da 9:24 Seuentie weekes are determined vpon thy people, and vpon thy holy citie, to finish the transgression, and to make an ende of sinnes, and to make reconciliation for iniquitie, and to bring in euerlasting righteousnes, and to seale vp the vision and prophecie, and to anoynt the most Holy.
Da 9:25 Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times.
Da 9:26 And after threescore and two weekes, shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himselfe, and the people of the Prince that shall come, shall destroy the citie, and the Sanctuarie, and the ende thereof shall be with a flood, and vnto the ende of the warre desolations are determined.
Da 9:27 And hee shall confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the midst of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of abominations hee shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation, & that determined, shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

In verse 4 why did Commandements need to be capitalized?

In verse 6 why did Prophets need to be capitalized? Also in verse 6, why was 'Name' capitalized?

In verse 10 why did Lawes and Prophets needs to be capitalized?

in verse 11 why did Law need to be capitalized?

In verse 12 why did Judges need to be capitalized?

In verse 26 why did Sanctuarie need to be capitalized?

I could go on and on since there is even more. And when comparing the the KJV I currently use, none of those things are capitalized..
 

Truth7t7

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Did Jesus return in all power and great glory at the resurrection?
You're not going to take the future visible, literal, second coming of Jesus Christ seen in Matthew 24:29-31 and remove, ain't gonna happen "Next"!
.
Jesus Is The Lord
 

rwb

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In verse 4 why did Commandements need to be capitalized?

In verse 6 why did Prophets need to be capitalized? Also in verse 6, why was 'Name' capitalized?

In verse 10 why did Lawes and Prophets needs to be capitalized?

in verse 11 why did Law need to be capitalized?

In verse 12 why did Judges need to be capitalized?

In verse 26 why did Sanctuarie need to be capitalized?

I could go on and on since there is even more. And when comparing the the KJV I currently use, none of those things are capitalized..

What do you find erratic about these things being capitalized? They are all things and people set apart/sanctified by God.

Sanctified - a primitive root; to be (causatively, make, pronounce or observe as) clean (ceremonially or morally):—appoint, bid, consecrate, dedicate, defile, hallow, (be, keep) holy(-er, place), keep, prepare, proclaim, purify, sanctify(-ied one, self), × wholly

You don't find them capitalized in your KJB because you're not using 1611 translation. I would be surprised to learn that anyone today is using the 1611 KJB version.
 

IndianaRob

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Of course, I agree with John the Baptist coming before Christ in the spirit and power of Elijah. Not to restore all things but to prepare the way for Christ by preaching repentance from sin for the Kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Matthew 3:1-3 (KJV) In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea, And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

Christ came with the Kingdom of God from heaven to build His Church. As I've already said when man is born again we both know and spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God, for Christ tells us the Kingdom of God is within us.

Yes, the timeline does point to rebuilding the earthly city and temple, and that began when the King gave a decree, but it was not build without much hostility and persecution from those who did not want Jerusalem to be built again.
I agree that John came preaching repentance and preparing the way for Christ. My point is that this preparation was itself part of the restoration work that was prophesied.

Jesus Himself said, "Elias truly shall first come, and restore all things" (Matthew 17:11). Then He explained that Elijah had already come, and the disciples understood that He was speaking of John the Baptist (Matthew 17:12-13). So when John came in the spirit and power of Elijah, his mission was not only to preach repentance, but to restore all things and prepare a people for the Lord.

As far as the timeline based on the rebuilding of the earthly temple, I believe there are several assumptions involved that make it difficult to use as the foundation of the interpretation. Which decree is being referred to? Is it the decree to rebuild the temple, or the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? And where exactly does the timeline end. Is it Christ's birth, the beginning of His ministry, His triumphal entry, His death, or His resurrection? Even the dating of those events is debated.

Also, those details can't be established from the Bible alone, they require extra-biblical historical sources to arrive at that timeline.
 

IndianaRob

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You're not going to take the future visible, literal, second coming of Jesus Christ seen in Matthew 24:29-31 and remove, ain't gonna happen "Next"!
.
Jesus Is The Lord
But I asked if Jesus returned in all power and glory at the resurrection. You know that phrase is one of the keys of understanding when Christ returns.