A heretical teaching dismantled with the help of Paul the Evangelist.

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Illuminator

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Perfect example of YOUR GASLIGHTING…

Why do ONLY YOUR WORDS appear?
Because I'm not going to search this entire thread for YOUR WORDS, that you repeat over and over again. Your position is quite clear. You think Catholics worship statues. You have no intelligent reply to my numerous posts. The readers can see for themselves your polemical dishonesty.
WHY DO YOU NOT ONCE SHOW MY WORDS MAKING THAT ACCUSATION?

Do you really think your devilish behavior deserves respect, honor, or consideration?

No way!

Your words:
Cunning trickery speaking of “material” the statue is constructed with.

Do you really require God to list;
Wood, plaster, stone, plastic, concrete, baked dirt, paper, on and on to comprehend the point is to Not Bow down unto it?

:rolleyes:
Ignorance
A continunation of the same false accusation by misrepresentation, that you claim you didn't say. What a liar.
YET…you quote me not once, saying what you speak For me.
You plainly say, disagreeing with a Catholic on particular topics, amounts to cheap shots.
I have proven in detail, why your unbiblical obession with bowing and false accusations of statue worship are nothing but cheap shots, and you run from my posts, only to reply with more insults.
Post #463, your words, that you deny making because I didn't quote you direct;y.
~ Kneeling before statues and praying, no
~ Believing every person Because they sit in a pastoral, or other power seat, or are head of a household, no.
~ Need to have home loaded with statues, supposed religious artworks, trinkets, to Remember the Lord God, or appear sanctimonious to guests, no.
You are so neck deep in anti-Catholic rhetoric you can't think straight, so you ignore all my posts claiming you never said this or that. What a liar. So they made you a staff member?

Parents are tasked with the rearing of their own children from the moment they are born.
It’s a daily, continual teaching of God appointed unto the Parents.

You imply that once a week, maybe for an hour, a baby laying in a church nursery, is all a parent is called to KNOW and DO…
Laughable!
Another stupid baseless insult to BofL, as if Catholics teach their children by osmosis once a week. What a liar. post #440:
Catholics teach the same. Sin repeatedly, confess repeatedly and repeatedly ask for Forgiveness. Even establishing little closet type booths to continue the charade.
A sick, perverted description gleaned from watching too much TV. Post #342, that you claim you never said
I just don’t get it. Statues, bowing, beads, trinkets, born without sin, forever virgin…
After all that has been explained, you still don't get it. Post #331:
When you go to your church DO YOU BOW down before any statues?
Rarely, but when I do, I bow to the prototype, not to a statue. Grow up. Your words:
Those are specific. And have been asked numerous times to numerous Catholics, and not once has anyone given a scriptural passage to support those beliefs and acts.
What a liar.
 

Illuminator

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Stop deflecting. Every Catholic ONLY recognizes A CATHOLIC CHURCH as THE ONLY Church. That IS the Christian History of the Catholic Church..
AS IF Christ Yielded His Church, to a handful of self-counseling ideas of men whose pretense IS Christ’s Church membership IS ONLY effected BY an individual pledging to A CREED, devised by the Catholic church’s handful of men.




PART ONE
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
SECTION TWO
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH

CHAPTER THREE
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT

ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"

Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic

811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."256 These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,257 indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.

Christ’s CHURCH is not a Building. Has no Name. Christ called His Church “MY Church”.
Possessively, Christ’s Church IS HIS.
He Alone, By His Power, According to His WAY, PUTS HIS CHURCH, IN a man.
His Church was Never called, catholic, protestant, buddhist, or whatever men devise.

Marymog keeping it real without real facts…
Funny.
Recently, two Protestants (originally on my Facebook page) vigorously and vociferously condemned this doctrine (or more specifically, particularly objected to any Christian saying that their own church was the one true Church: as if this is fundamentally different from what Catholics and Orthodox believe about ecclesiology). In fairness to them, this is not bigotry or sheer anti-Catholicism (at least not necessarily). I would contend that it flows logically from Protestant first principles. They are simply consistently and sincerely following their own system, which does not allow this belief to be included, period. I shall explain how and why I think that is.

Sola Scriptura is the belief that there is one and only one final, infallible authority in Christianity: Holy Scripture. It follows by necessary logical exclusion that sacred tradition and the Church are not infallible; therefore, neither the Catholic Church, nor Orthodoxy, nor any Protestant sect can be considered “the one true Church.” Such a category is ultimately meaningless in Protestant ecclesiology.

It was the contra-Catholic mentality (some things never change) that compelled Luther to dissent against the received rule of faith. By logical and/or practical necessity, in order to advance his agenda, and backed into a corner in this debate, he had to reject ecclesial infallibility. Once that was ejected from ecclesiology, then the default or fall-back position was sola Sciptura: a thing that is neither taught in the Bible anywhere, nor by any major Church father. The three-legged stool, on the other hand, is all over Scripture. For example:

1. In the prerogatives of Peter: the leader of the apostles, commissioned by Jesus to head the Church.
2. In apostolic succession (particularly, the election of Matthias to succeed Judas).
3. In episcopal government (bishops and hierarchy).
4. In frequent and solemn biblical condemnations of denominations and sects and assertions of one Church, one faith, one truth, etc.
5. In the Jerusalem Council, which issued a binding decree, guided by the Holy Spirit, which Paul then proclaimed for observance (Acts 16:4) throughout Asia Minor and elsewhere.
6. In the implications of 1 Timothy 3:15 (Church as the pillar and foundation of the truth).
7. In how the Bible describes the nature of the Church.
8. In Jesus’ expressed opinions on tradition; e.g., concerning Moses’ Seat.
9. In the biblical espousal of positive, apostolic tradition.
10. The “problem” of the determination of the biblical canon: to which Protestants have no coherent solution.

All of this (and its strongly biblical and patristic basis) must be rejected (or minimized or ignored, as the case may be) by the Protestant in order to adopt the self-defeating, relentlessly incoherent slop of sola Scriptura, which is never taught in the Bible (as I have demonstrated I think, in a book critiquing it and a second critiquing the two leading historical defenders of the doctrine).

Once sola Scriptura is firmly in place, any final or authoritative notion of a visible, institutional Church bolstered by apostolic succession, whose teachings are authoritative and binding, has to go. And we see that in a document like The Westminster Confession...

Thus, we see that Protestants today consistently follow these unbiblical and arbitrary traditions of men. They’re perfectly sincere and well-intentioned. The problem lies not in character or some supposed serious moral defect. Rather, it is in the adoption of false premises, and lack of understanding as to how they began, and how hostile they were to all of previous Christian history and to the Bible.

This is why Protestants not infrequently say that it is “condescending” or unecumenical (most “intolerant”!) for anyone to believe in one true Church. It’s because the arbitrary category restrictions that they have accepted, do not allow these categories and this opinion at all.

In fact, Catholics are (as we see it) simply following biblical, apostolic, and patristic teaching in a consistent fashion, whereas it is our considered opinion that the Protestant view on this score is contrary to the Bible, the apostles, the fathers, and is logically self-defeating.

They’re making their points out of love and concern for the Catholic to adopt the “truth” (i.e., their principles). Our motive is precisely the same. If one believes in an identifiable, demonstrable one true Church, it is their duty to proclaim this with others, so that they can share in the fullness and joy and contentment of such a view (i.e., so they can join such a Church and partake of its unique benefits). The message and messenger are too often scorned for doing so. It’s a very unfashionable belief: especially in these crazy times where there are less and less absolute truths believed in, all the time.

But if even the gospel itself was widely rejected; if Jesus and Paul and the early Christians were hated and rejected and martyred, we should fully expect our Catholic message to be hated, misrepresented, and rejected as well. This is, nevertheless, no reason to not proclaim it. We (especially apologists / evangelist like myself) will do so, and let the gratuitous insults fly if they must. I haven’t judged anyone’s character; quite the opposite. I’ve merely asserted that Protestantism contains some serious falsehoods, and I back up my contentions with massive argumentation at every turn (in my 2000+ articles and 48 apologetics books).

For an excellent treatment of this question of the “true Church,” see Joe Heschmeyer’s article, “What Are the Marks of the True Church?” (Shameless Popery, 10-27-11)
source
 

Taken

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Because I'm not going to search this entire thread for YOUR WORDS, that you repeat over and over again. Your position is quite clear. You think Catholics worship statues.

You know my thoughts?
How so?

I know you are NOT God.
So, are you promoting yourself as some sort of wizard or psychic?
 

Taken

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Recently, two Protestants (originally on my Facebook page) vigorously and vociferously condemned this doctrine (or more specifically, particularly objected to any Christian saying that their own church was the one true Church: as if this is fundamentally different from what Catholics and Orthodox believe about ecclesiology). In fairness to them, this is not bigotry or sheer anti-Catholicism (at least not necessarily). I would contend that it flows logically from Protestant first principles. They are simply consistently and sincerely following their own system, which does not allow this belief to be included, period. I shall explain how and why I think that is.

Sola Scriptura is the belief that there is one and only one final, infallible authority in Christianity: Holy Scripture. It follows by necessary logical exclusion that sacred tradition and the Church are not infallible; therefore, neither the Catholic Church, nor Orthodoxy, nor any Protestant sect can be considered “the one true Church.” Such a category is ultimately meaningless in Protestant ecclesiology.

It was the contra-Catholic mentality (some things never change) that compelled Luther to dissent against the received rule of faith. By logical and/or practical necessity, in order to advance his agenda, and backed into a corner in this debate, he had to reject ecclesial infallibility. Once that was ejected from ecclesiology, then the default or fall-back position was sola Sciptura: a thing that is neither taught in the Bible anywhere, nor by any major Church father. The three-legged stool, on the other hand, is all over Scripture. For example:




All of this (and its strongly biblical and patristic basis) must be rejected (or minimized or ignored, as the case may be) by the Protestant in order to adopt the self-defeating, relentlessly incoherent slop of sola Scriptura, which is never taught in the Bible (as I have demonstrated I think, in a book critiquing it and a second critiquing the two leading historical defenders of the doctrine).

Once sola Scriptura is firmly in place, any final or authoritative notion of a visible, institutional Church bolstered by apostolic succession, whose teachings are authoritative and binding, has to go. And we see that in a document like The Westminster Confession...

Thus, we see that Protestants today consistently follow these unbiblical and arbitrary traditions of men. They’re perfectly sincere and well-intentioned. The problem lies not in character or some supposed serious moral defect. Rather, it is in the adoption of false premises, and lack of understanding as to how they began, and how hostile they were to all of previous Christian history and to the Bible.

This is why Protestants not infrequently say that it is “condescending” or unecumenical (most “intolerant”!) for anyone to believe in one true Church. It’s because the arbitrary category restrictions that they have accepted, do not allow these categories and this opinion at all.

In fact, Catholics are (as we see it) simply following biblical, apostolic, and patristic teaching in a consistent fashion, whereas it is our considered opinion that the Protestant view on this score is contrary to the Bible, the apostles, the fathers, and is logically self-defeating.

They’re making their points out of love and concern for the Catholic to adopt the “truth” (i.e., their principles). Our motive is precisely the same. If one believes in an identifiable, demonstrable one true Church, it is their duty to proclaim this with others, so that they can share in the fullness and joy and contentment of such a view (i.e., so they can join such a Church and partake of its unique benefits). The message and messenger are too often scorned for doing so. It’s a very unfashionable belief: especially in these crazy times where there are less and less absolute truths believed in, all the time.

But if even the gospel itself was widely rejected; if Jesus and Paul and the early Christians were hated and rejected and martyred, we should fully expect our Catholic message to be hated, misrepresented, and rejected as well. This is, nevertheless, no reason to not proclaim it. We (especially apologists / evangelist like myself) will do so, and let the gratuitous insults fly if they must. I haven’t judged anyone’s character; quite the opposite. I’ve merely asserted that Protestantism contains some serious falsehoods, and I back up my contentions with massive argumentation at every turn (in my 2000+ articles and 48 apologetics books).

For an excellent treatment of this question of the “true Church,” see Joe Heschmeyer’s article, “What Are the Marks of the True Church?” (Shameless Popery, 10-27-11)
source

This is a load of irrelevant gobbledygook between men trying to explain “Christ’s Spiritual Church” from the Logic of human mens minds.

The True Church is not a mystery.
It’s called: Christ Jesus’ Church…

Speaker: (I)
Christ Jesus

Quote: (my church)
Matt 16:
[18] And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Christ’s Church is not a man-built tangible structure.

Christ Jesus’ True Church Is:
Men Converted IN Christ Jesus,
And it IS those men WHO ARE the Temple of Christ’s Church.

Sola Scriptura is not complicated…
Scripture alone FOR WHAT?

A mans Profit…

“for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”

If ANY man chooses to IGNORE what God has provided and seek and find PROFIT from men…THAT is THAT mans choice.

Jesus EXPRESSLY revealed “His doctrine”…

Mark 4:
[2] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine…

(And BTW, just to note; not once do I see Jesus’ Doctrine by Word, by Teaching, by an example of Doing….
bowing down to graven images…
nor praying TO Mary…
nor searching papers outside of scripture…)

Every man is accountable for his own choices.
 

Marymog

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@Iluminator
@BreadOfLife
@Marymog

Nothing interesting, Nothing new.


You have repeatedly SAID, I have repeatedly charged Catholics with Statue Worship….

Where is YOUR EVIDENCE ?
YOUR EVIDENCE should be clearly Available for ALL TO SEE….IN MY OWN WORDS, IN MY OWN POSTS….
(Conveniently missing!)
Quotes From Taken:

IS that, erecting statues, bowing down to them, Praying TO whatever the statue is supposed to represent? Is that Calling out a name and repeating over and over the same empty words while counting beads, to be sure of how many times you have called their name and repeated your Prayer TO them? Is that Kissing statues? Is that elevating and parading a statue around in what is supposed to be A HOUSE DEDICATED to God? Is that laying trinkets and flowers at the feel of a statue? Bowing, Praying to, are express acts reserved for Worship and Requests unto the Lord God. And the Statutes…expressly Not to Gods liking.

It is very disturbing to SEE, statues of what is “supposedly” a likeness of Mary in Gods House of Prayer, being bowed down to, prayed to, kissed, trinkets offered to the statue, and in competition with the Reverence of Gods sanctuary.

It’s a curious thing, Catholics are taught to place statues (supposedly of Mary’s likeness) in what is presumed (a building erected and dedicated to God as a House of Prayer unto God), bow dow to such statues (supposedly likenesses of Mary) pray TO her,

I think Mary will be horrified of people bowing to supposed statues of her .........

@Illuminator and @BreadOfLife look forward to your public retraction of that statement!!

Mary
 

Marymog

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Perfect example of YOUR GASLIGHTING…

Why do ONLY YOUR WORDS appear?

WHY DO YOU NOT ONCE SHOW MY WORDS MAKING THAT ACCUSATION?

Do you really think your devilish behavior deserves respect, honor, or consideration?

No way!
YOUR WORDS IN POST #528

Lev 26:
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Does Your Catholic Church, set up images?
Yes.
Does Your Catholic Church, clerics teach by word and example and expect, its Church members to do as they do?
Yes.
Does Your Catholic Church clerics, bow down unto statues?
Yes.
Do Catholic Church members, bow down unto statues?
Yes.
 

Marymog

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You make zero sense man . all to defend THE HARLOT .
you gotta know by now , i had rather be throwed in prison .
Beaten with whips and a fierce cat of nine tails
and daily had salt poured into my wounds , THAN to sit under THE HARLOT . but you go and learn what that means .
Who in your life fulfills Hebrews 13:17?
 
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Taken

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Quotes From Taken:

IS that, erecting statues, bowing down to them, Praying TO whatever the statue is supposed to represent? Is that Calling out a name and repeating over and over the same empty words while counting beads, to be sure of how many times you have called their name and repeated your Prayer TO them? Is that Kissing statues? Is that elevating and parading a statue around in what is supposed to be A HOUSE DEDICATED to God? Is that laying trinkets and flowers at the feel of a statue? Bowing, Praying to, are express acts reserved for Worship and Requests unto the Lord God. And the Statutes…expressly Not to Gods liking.

It is very disturbing to SEE, statues of what is “supposedly” a likeness of Mary in Gods House of Prayer, being bowed down to, prayed to, kissed, trinkets offered to the statue, and in competition with the Reverence of Gods sanctuary.

It’s a curious thing, Catholics are taught to place statues (supposedly of Mary’s likeness) in what is presumed (a building erected and dedicated to God as a House of Prayer unto God), bow dow to such statues (supposedly likenesses of Mary) pray TO her,

I think Mary will be horrified of people bowing to supposed statues of her .........

@Illuminator and @BreadOfLife look forward to your public retraction of that statement!!

Mary

So? Answer the questions if you want or not.
No. I will not retract my statement.
 
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Taken

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YOUR WORDS IN POST #528

Lev 26:
[1] Ye shall make you no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land, to bow down unto it: for I am the LORD your God.

Does Your Catholic Church, set up images?
Yes.
Does Your Catholic Church, clerics teach by word and example and expect, its Church members to do as they do?
Yes.
Does Your Catholic Church clerics, bow down unto statues?
Yes.
Do Catholic Church members, bow down unto statues?
Yes.

So? Disagree with Scripture if you want or not.
So ? Disagree with my answers to questions if you want or not.
 
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amigo de christo

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Who in your life fulfills Hebrews 13:17?
Those who actually are seasoned and mature and speak the truth of GOD .
many false leaders are all about and roaming through christendom they do ........
THOSE WONT be sat under . True seasoned men of GOD who actually preach the WORD .
Many do not . Now many make the CLAIM they do and many make the claim
we the , fill in the blank , watchtower , mormon , RCC , hold the keys and our men
our intitutions are the MOUTH PIECE OF GOD . THEY WRONG as can be and this lamb
wont be sitting under them . MEN have always made claims .
Though not all cliams be false , many are .
This lamb will not , shall not and by Grace may i never sit under such .
Those who act as though they are in the seat of CHRIST and yet they teach blapshemies .
These sit not in the seat of Christ , but rather ...........................anti .
for any man , no matter his claims of his authority or the authority
of his institution , IF THAT MAN or HIS INSTITUION teaches mega falsehoods , IS no man or institution
that a lamb will ever sit under .
You probably have zero problem with me telling you WHY i wont sit under the watchtower JW
or the MORMON ,and yet you cannot see your institution , has done the same to you all .
TOUCH NOT GODS ANNOINTED they cry and in order for you to know the TRUTH ye must sit under US to do so .
NOPE . I NEED TO HEED THE VOICE OF THE GREAT SHEPARD JESUS CHRIST .
now true leaders i will heed and hear , for true leaders would have spoke the words of Truth and not fables .
 
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Marymog

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Those who actually are seasoned and mature and speak the truth of GOD .
many false leaders are all about and roaming through christendom they do ........
THOSE WONT be sat under . True seasoned men of GOD who actually preach the WORD .
Many do not . Now many make the CLAIM they do and many make the claim
we the , fill in the blank , watchtower , mormon , RCC , hold the keys and our men
our intitutions are the MOUTH PIECE OF GOD . THEY WRONG as can be and this lamb
wont be sitting under them . MEN have always made claims .
Though not all cliams be false , many are .
This lamb will not , shall not and by Grace may i never sit under such .
Those who act as though they are in the seat of CHRIST and yet they teach blapshemies .
These sit not in the seat of Christ , but rather ...........................anti .
for any man , no matter his claims of his authority or the authority
of his institution , IF THAT MAN or HIS INSTITUION teaches mega falsehoods , IS no man or institution
that a lamb will ever sit under .
You probably have zero problem with me telling you WHY i wont sit under the watchtower JW
or the MORMON ,and yet you cannot see your institution , has done the same to you all .
TOUCH NOT GODS ANNOINTED they cry and in order for you to know the TRUTH ye must sit under US to do so .
NOPE . I NEED TO HEED THE VOICE OF THE GREAT SHEPARD JESUS CHRIST .
now true leaders i will heed and hear , for true leaders would have spoke the words of Truth and not fables .
Who in your life fulfills Hebrews 13:17?
 

Marymog

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So? Disagree with Scripture if you want or not.
So ? Disagree with my answers to questions if you want or not.
I don't disagree with Scripture. I disagree with YOU. YOU clearly LIED!
 

Marymog

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Because I'm not going to search this entire thread for YOUR WORDS, that you repeat over and over again. Your position is quite clear. You think Catholics worship statues. You have no intelligent reply to my numerous posts. The readers can see for themselves your polemical dishonesty.




What a liar.
Hey Illuminator,

I searched this entire thread and exposed @Taken lie in posts #545 and 546.

He's not going to apologize and will deflect and gaslight.......but that is his problem, not ours. It's fascinating that Christianity Board made him a staff member and part of their Encounter Team. My only encounters with him have been negative. Not a good look for this forum!!

Mary
 

Marymog

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I said no such thing.
You said it, you explain it.

Gaslighter.
You have lied once again Taken.

Bread of Life said: Then explain your position on this issue.

If Jesus teaches you personally how to interpret Scripture…


Post #288 From YOU

I have expressly said Jesus is my Teacher.

You owe @BreadOfLife a public apology
 
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