A hypothetical question...

[Stranger]

sorry i posted in red so i could hit your points. i still don't know how to separate the quote yet

God bless

I'm sorry too. Till you separate your words from mine I have no interest. Much of what you said, which looks like what I said was not in red.

Stranger

 

[shnarkle]

I'm sorry too. Till you separate your words from mine I have no interest. Much of what you said, which looks like what I said was not in red.

Much of what was said which was said in red wasn't what was said that wasn't said in red. I really have no interest in what was said until it is clear what I said.

Stranger

?

 

[7angels]

I'm sorry too. Till you separate your words from mine I have no interest. Much of what you said, which looks like what I said was not in red.

Stranger

it was similar verses with the exception of 2 different view points of those same scriptures. you use them as proof that they show that those people were never saved. i use them to show that they reveal fruit of the spirit and the bible tells use to judge things according to their fruit. fruit of the spirit is a fruit of salvation showing that these people could of been saved at one point in time.

i would love to hear your fruit of your christian walk with Christ. do all or most of your prayers get answered by God? are you baptized in the Holy Spirit? are you a tongue talker? how many people have you brought to Christ? what were the signs, miracles, and wonders that took place that are to follow the Word to confirm its truth? do you live a supernatural life? How much time do you spend a day with God? what is God telling you to work on in your life? can you hear the audible voice of God? i look forward to your replies.

God bless

 

[Stranger]

This isn't a "once saved always saved" question. This has to do with someone who is not omniscient. This is a question aimed at someone who does not have foreknowledge of all future events. Evidently, from what you're claiming; this really isn't a question for you.

Oh. Your question didn't obtain your desired results. Sorry. Better luck with others.

Stranger

 

[7angels]

I don't know how to use the quotes either. I'm not all that concerned with who said what, but rather what is being said. Having said that, what follows is probably not in regards to what you've posted so far.

One of the issues that seems to rear it's head almost immediately is that of "once saved always saved" This isn't the immediate point of my question. While it can have some relevance, it usually just serves as a reason for people to respond that my question is impossible. The fact is that Paul points out, albeit not all that clearly; that even if this were the case, it would not make God unjust. This is what people can't seem to see.

The point of my question is dealing with a different aspect of Paul's question, i.e. "what would you do under these circumstances?" Instead of answering the question as presented, the vast majority of people choose to respond to the question as if this isn't the situation at all. They would rather answer the question as if I'd asked what they would do if they were actually the elect and this happened. I'm not asking that question. Yet they seem overwhelmed with a sense of duty to inform me that I don't know the question I actually asked. Go figure.

The insolence of some people is astounding. I presented a given hypothetical situation, e.g. You are damned to hell; a vessel fitted for destruction. What do I get in response? I get the churlish and indignant cry of some infant that has just been told that they need a bath, or to finish their homework, or that they need to go to bed as it is way past their bedtime. I get this: "NO, I'm not damned to hell" Again, evidently it can't be emphasized enough that this is a hypothetical question. Perhaps on second thought what needs to be emphasized is that some people just need to work on their reading comprehension skills a little more...

i don't mind talking about these issues as long as we are both open minded. also some times there comes a time that you just need to concede an issue because if people are not willing to talk things out then all that happens is debate(arguments). so if both sides are not willing to listen and try and understand the other then nothing will come of it. have you ever called a person an idiot and even if it were true the other person hardly ever agree but will resist immensely. so pushing someone into a corner is no good for either party. so if they don't want to respond then leave it alone. i found out that is the best way but it is not human nature to do it this way though.

God bless

 

[Stranger]

it was similar verses with the exception of 2 different view points of those same scriptures. you use them as proof that they show that those people were never saved. i use them to show that they reveal fruit of the spirit and the bible tells use to judge things according to their fruit. fruit of the spirit is a fruit of salvation showing that these people could of been saved at one point in time.

i would love to hear your fruit of your christian walk with Christ. do all or most of your prayers get answered by God? are you baptized in the Holy Spirit? are you a tongue talker? how many people have you brought to Christ? what were the signs, miracles, and wonders that took place that are to follow the Word to confirm its truth? do you live a supernatural life? How much time do you spend a day with God? what is God telling you to work on in your life? can you hear the audible voice of God? i look forward to your replies.

God bless

Remember (7:23) "I never knew you". That means 'never'. Means they were never saved to begin with.

Stranger

 

[7angels]

Remember (7:23) "I never knew you". That means 'never'. Means they were never saved to begin with.

Stranger

read the parable of the virgins. the same wording is used. Jesus says He does not know the 5 virgins who ran out of oil when they return. yet all 10 of them from the story know Jesus. i could do a teaching on this but let me say that i checked several commentaries for the meaning to see if you were right and the word is correct but you have taken it as too literal. all the commentators said the same thing concerning this verse. I never knew you - That is, I never approved of your conduct; never loved you; never regarded you as my friends. See Psalm 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Corinthians 8:3. This proves that, with all their pretensions, they had never been true followers of Christ. Jesus will not then say to false prophets and false professors of religion that he had once known them and then rejected them; that they had been once Christians and then had fallen away; that they had been pardoned and then had apostatized but that he had never known them - they had never been true christians. Whatever might have been their pretended joys, their raptures, their hopes, their self-confidence, their visions, their zeal, they had never been regarded by the Saviour as his true friends. I do not know of a more decided proof that Christians do not fall from grace than this text. It settles the question; and proves that whatever else such people had, they never had any true religion. See 1 John 2:19.

i hope this helps to clear up the misunderstandings

God bless

 

[shnarkle]

read the parable of the virgins. the same wording is used. Jesus says He does not know the 5 virgins who ran out of oil when they return. yet all 10 of them from the story know Jesus. i could do a teaching on this but let me say that i checked several commentaries for the meaning to see if you were right and the word is correct but you have taken it as too literal. all the commentators said the same thing concerning this verse. [background=#fdfeff]I never knew you - That is, I never approved of your conduct; never loved you; never regarded you as my friends. See [/background]

Psalm 1:6[background=#fdfeff]; [/background]2 Timothy 2:19[background=#fdfeff]; [/background]1 Corinthians 8:3[background=#fdfeff]. This proves that, with all their pretensions, they had never been true followers of Christ. Jesus will not then say to false prophets and false professors of religion that he had once known them and then rejected them; that they had been once Christians and then had fallen away; that they had been pardoned and then had apostatized but that he had never known them - they had never been true christians. Whatever might have been their pretended joys, their raptures, their hopes, their self-confidence, their visions, their zeal, they had never been regarded by the Saviour as his true friends. I do not know of a more decided proof that Christians do not fall from grace than this text. It settles the question; and proves that whatever else such people had, they never had any true religion. See [/background]1 John 2:19[background=#fdfeff].[/background]

i hope this helps to clear up the misunderstandings

[background=#fdfeff]God bless[/background]
[/quote]

I must have messed with this post for a good half hour trying to get it to post correctly. This is insane! I put the quote in but it won't post correctly. what am I doing wrong here? I must have removed the quote from the end of this post a dozen times, and every time I hit "save changed" it comes back. There must be some sort of software demon lurking in there somewhere trying to make people go crazy or something. Too late, I'm already insane.

What you say makes a lot of sense. The scripture you've quoted is quite persuasive. My only confusion is how to then reconcile this with the idea of predestined foreknowledge of those who are supposed to be conformed to the image of Christ. Unlike most people I don't seem to have a problem seeing that God can create beings with free will who are also predestined to heaven or hell. This isn't really the point of my confusion though.

There's a part of me that see's what you're seeing; it makes perfect sense. There's also another part of me that see's God giving his Son His inheritance that cannot be snatched out of his hands; think of it as a private property issue. The Son takes His inheritance because He paid for it; it's His. So, for me it's kinda like looking at one of those pictures that shift depending on how you look at it. I'd just like to see it resolve into one coherent picture. Any suggestions would be appreciated.


[/QUOTE]

 

[7angels]

shnarkle says
I must have messed with this post for a good half hour trying to get it to post correctly. This is insane! I put the quote in but it won't post correctly. what am I doing wrong here? I must have removed the quote from the end of this post a dozen times, and every time I hit "save changed" it comes back. There must be some sort of software demon lurking in there somewhere trying to make people go crazy or something. Too late, I'm already insane.
What you say makes a lot of sense. The scripture you've quoted is quite persuasive. My only confusion is how to then reconcile this with the idea of predestined foreknowledge of those who are supposed to be conformed to the image of Christ. Unlike most people I don't seem to have a problem seeing that God can create beings with free will who are also predestined to heaven or hell. This isn't really the point of my confusion though.

There's a part of me that see's what you're seeing; it makes perfect sense. There's also another part of me that see's God giving his Son His inheritance that cannot be snatched out of his hands; think of it as a private property issue. The Son takes His inheritance because He paid for it; it's His. So, for me it's kinda like looking at one of those pictures that shift depending on how you look at it. I'd just like to see it resolve into one coherent picture. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

if i misunderstand you or answer the wrong question then feel free to tell me. first let me say i don't believe in God predestining anyone to hell with the exception of satan and his angels but that is already described in scripture. if anything God is trying to predestine us to heaven so we do not need to die in hell. as the scriptures say all have sinned and thus deserve death. but God in His mercy has given us a way out if we are willing to accept it.

when the bible speaks of the broad and narrow path i do not believe it is actually narrow like in a ledge on a mountain. the way i see it is that it is broad like kansas is wide open and is the path we all start walking on in life. and narrow like a road going through the mountains. plenty of space to walk on both paths no matter which is chosen. the broad road represents everything we are used to. our lifestyles, attitudes, and ect. the narrow road represents who God wants us to be. the broad road is much more pleasant for most because it is a lifestyle you are familiar with. but the narrow road requires things that are not necessary on the broad road like learning to love everyone friend and foe alike, blessing those that do you harm, helping those in need, and ect. many even though they try walking the narrow path for one reason or another decide that it is too hard or they step into pride and it becomes all about them or one of many other reasons they leave the narrow trail and head for the broad path once again. so the question comes that asks if you desire to step off the broad path for the narrow path that legend says leads to the city of Gold(God)/heaven). are you willing to take a leap of faith and follow it to the end no matter what you come up against? just like in the stories of hidden treasures and their maps there are many who look but few actually ever find them. will you be a successful treasure hunter or not?

God bless

 

[shnarkle]

[background=#fcfcfc]shnarkle says[/background]

[background=#fcfcfc]I must have messed with this post for a good half hour trying to get it to post correctly. This is insane! I put the quote in but it won't post correctly. what am I doing wrong here? I must have removed the quote from the end of this post a dozen times, and every time I hit "save changed" it comes back. There must be some sort of software demon lurking in there somewhere trying to make people go crazy or something. Too late, I'm already insane.[/background]
[background=#fcfcfc]What you say makes a lot of sense. The scripture you've quoted is quite persuasive. My only confusion is how to then reconcile this with the idea of predestined foreknowledge of those who are supposed to be conformed to the image of Christ. Unlike most people I don't seem to have a problem seeing that God can create beings with free will who are also predestined to heaven or hell. This isn't really the point of my confusion though.[/background]

[background=#fcfcfc]There's a part of me that see's what you're seeing; it makes perfect sense. There's also another part of me that see's God giving his Son His inheritance that cannot be snatched out of his hands; think of it as a private property issue. The Son takes His inheritance because He paid for it; it's His. So, for me it's kinda like looking at one of those pictures that shift depending on how you look at it. I'd just like to see it resolve into one coherent picture. Any suggestions would be appreciated.[/background]

if i misunderstand you or answer the wrong question then feel free to tell me. first let me say i don't believe in God predestining anyone to hell with the exception of satan and his angels but that is already described in scripture. if anything God is trying to predestine us to heaven so we do not need to die in hell. as the scriptures say all have sinned and thus deserve death. but God in His mercy has given us a way out if we are willing to accept it.

when the bible speaks of the broad and narrow path i do not believe it is actually narrow like in a ledge on a mountain. the way i see it is that it is broad like kansas is wide open and is the path we all start walking on in life. and narrow like a road going through the mountains. plenty of space to walk on both paths no matter which is chosen. the broad road represents everything we are used to. our lifestyles, attitudes, and ect. the narrow road represents who God wants us to be. the broad road is much more pleasant for most because it is a lifestyle you are familiar with. but the narrow road requires things that are not necessary on the broad road like learning to love everyone friend and foe alike, blessing those that do you harm, helping those in need, and ect. many even though they try walking the narrow path for one reason or another decide that it is too hard or they step into pride and it becomes all about them or one of many other reasons they leave the narrow trail and head for the broad path once again. so the question comes that asks if you desire to step off the broad path for the narrow path that legend says leads to the city of Gold(God)/heaven). are you willing to take a leap of faith and follow it to the end no matter what you come up against? just like in the stories of hidden treasures and their maps there are many who look but few actually ever find them. will you be a successful treasure hunter or not?

God bless
Here again, my success isn't dependent upon my "will or effort". "The Spirit goes where HE WILLS...". Jesus tells his parables so only those who the Father draws to him hear his words. The dead can't be successful because they're dead. Those who the Spirit calls have to be given the ears to hear in order to hear the gospel in the first place. For them, I would think it's a no-brainer.