A Little Season

[WPM]

How is it that 70 AD's destruction of the temple back then was worse than what we see in this generation? Have we not seen much worse tribulations since then? I am curious and not trying to argue. We all have our beliefs and mine have changed over the decades. This is a genuine question, and the verses I quoted only seem to say it will be WORSE than the world has ever seen or ever will see.
Thank you!

Joel 2:2
"a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like the dawn overspreading the mountains a great and strong army appears, such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come." Bigger than the World Wars? Bigger than the genocides of the world?

Matt. 24:21
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Good question.

I am not a Preterist. I am a Posttrib Amil.

“No, Nor Ever Shall Be”

It is not necessary speaking of size or scope; some import that into it. It is speaking of the overwhelming effect and destruction it had upon one particular disobedient people – the Jews; a people that should have known better. The Roman siege in 70 A.D. resulted in the total destruction of the city and of life within the city. Their whole culture, political and religious structure that was intimately tied to Jerusalem was in one foul swoop swiftly and effectively eliminated. Think about this: their religion essentially died. It is impotent without the temple and its sacrifices. The fact is, they still haven’t recovered 2,000 years later. They are the only major religion in the world that still doesn’t own their religious centre. This all resulted from this great tribulation from God. The world would never again witness such a swift, complete and lasting destruction of a whole people/culture and their religious place of worship and associated belief system.

AD 70 not only seen the slaughter of the Jewish people on a mammoth scale, it also seen the removal of their place of worship (and their innate method of worship) and seen the removal of them from their beloved homeland. In this sense AD 70 is unprecedented. Everything they stood for was demolished, including their faith. The only ones that survived complete were the Christians that fled to the Judean mountains as directed by the Lord. It should be remembered, it is not one single element of AD 70 it is the collective depth and impact that it had that caused it to be described like this. Everything sunk at the one time. They have still yet to recover.

The concluding statement in Matthew 24 says, of this heavenly judgment and its aftermath, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).” In these words of the Lord, we see the confirmation of the fact that there would assuredly be a stretch of time following this great tribulation, just as there was a time period preceding it.

 

[Nancy]

Good question.

I am not a Preterist. I am a Posttrib Amil.

“No, Nor Ever Shall Be”

It is not necessary speaking of size or scope; some import that into it. It is speaking of the overwhelming effect and destruction it had upon one particular disobedient people – the Jews; a people that should have known better. The Roman siege in 70 A.D. resulted in the total destruction of the city and of life within the city. Their whole culture, political and religious structure that was intimately tied to Jerusalem was in one foul swoop swiftly and effectively eliminated. Think about this: their religion essentially died. It is impotent without the temple and its sacrifices. The fact is, they still haven’t recovered 2,000 years later. They are the only major religion in the world that still doesn’t own their religious centre. This all resulted from this great tribulation from God. The world would never again witness such a swift, complete and lasting destruction of a whole people/culture and their religious place of worship and associated belief system.

AD 70 not only seen the slaughter of the Jewish people on a mammoth scale, it also seen the removal of their place of worship (and their innate method of worship) and seen the removal of them from their beloved homeland. In this sense AD 70 is unprecedented. Everything they stood for was demolished, including their faith. The only ones that survived complete were the Christians that fled to the Judean mountains as directed by the Lord. It should be remembered, it is not one single element of AD 70 it is the collective depth and impact that it had that caused it to be described like this. Everything sunk at the one time. They have still yet to recover.

The concluding statement in Matthew 24 says, of this heavenly judgment and its aftermath, “For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time (i.e. from creation to AD 70), no, nor ever shall be (speaking of a distinct time-period following this judgment, which manifestly involves various trials only of lesser impact, namely AD 70 till the second coming).” In these words of the Lord, we see the confirmation of the fact that there would assuredly be a stretch of time following this great tribulation, just as there was a time period preceding it.

Thank you for taking the time to give me your interpretation.
Have a lovely day WPM.

 

[David in NJ]

How is it that 70 AD's destruction of the temple back then was worse than what we see in this generation? Have we not seen much worse tribulations since then? I am curious and not trying to argue. We all have our beliefs and mine have changed over the decades. This is a genuine question, and the verses I quoted only seem to say it will be WORSE than the world has ever seen or ever will see.
Thank you!

Joel 2:2
"a day of darkness and gloom, a day of clouds and blackness. Like the dawn overspreading the mountains a great and strong army appears, such as never was of old, nor will ever be in ages to come." Bigger than the World Wars? Bigger than the genocides of the world?

Matt. 24:21
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

JESUS, who last time i checked, ALWAYS Speaks Truth = Said, "As in the days of Noah, so shall the Coming of the Son of Man be"

Noah's days leading up to the Wrath of GOD was a WORLDWIDE Tribulation!!!

Matthew 4:4 "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

 

[WPM]

JESUS, who last time i checked, ALWAYS Speaks Truth = Said, "As in the days of Noah, so shall the Coming of the Son of Man be"

Noah's days leading up to the Wrath of GOD was a WORLDWIDE Tribulation!!!

Matthew 4:4 "Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the Mouth of God"

Noah's day saw the immediate rescue of all the elect and saw the immediate destruction of all the wicked. That is the way it is going to be when Jesus comes. That forbids premillennialism.

 

[David in NJ]

Noah's day saw the immediate rescue of all the elect and saw the immediate destruction of all the wicked. That is the way it is going to be when Jesus comes. That forbids premillennialism.

No, that my brother is the corroboration of Genesis and the Gospel and His 2nd Coming.

 

[TribulationSigns]

How is it that 70 AD's destruction of the temple back then was worse than what we see in this generation? Have we not seen much worse tribulations since then?

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

There is not just normal tribulation, there will be "GREAT" tribulation such as has never been seen before on earth because Satan will be loosed and allowed to overcome "ALL" the Churches as judgment. The light has been put out, the witness or testimony of the saints unto Salvation is ended. That we see this darkness is not progressive revelation, but something we recognize because it is something that has never happened before! Some people claimed it was in 70A.D. are incorrect.

Matt. 24:21
"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Perhaps you should consider with the next verse:

Matthew 24:21-22

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Then shall be great tribulation. For who? For the Saints! God will avenge those who cry out to him day and night because of the abominations that will occur in His house (Church). God's loosing of Satan is judgment (Revelation chapter 20) FOR THAT unfaithfulness. And when Satan is loosed by God as a judgment upon the wicked, unfaithful congregation, obviously that tribulation upon the saints will be greater than ever "because" people will be more at enmity than ever before. I mean, it's not rocket science, if you multiply the number of people causing normal tribulation since Pentecost, then there will be "Great" of the same Tribulation. Thus, because Satan rules the nations as a army from the four quarters of the earth (Revelation 20), then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. "No, nor ever shall be BECAUSE Satan will be loosed and then comes the fall of the church, closely followed by Christ's return. Just as is clearly illustrated by God in Matthew 24:29-31.

The three passage of Matthew 24 that have the word tribulation [thilpsis] in them we have proven without question refer to the CHURCH, and to the end time period. And not one of these threee instances can be shown in Matthew as referring to AD 70! I will go over the three places for you:

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

We've already seen that this is the tribulation of the church. I believe you have confessed as much. So we can scratch that as your proof of a multiple tribulation period in Matthew 24.

The second verse that the word tribulation or [thlipsis] occurs in Matthew chapter 24, is verse 21.

Matthew 24:21-22

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Here again, the word "then" [tote] or at that time, connects this verse 21 to the preceding verses, which in tern connect to preceding verses of 20-10 and 10 connects it to 5-9. There is no gap, it's one period. Look how the word "then" [tote] or at that time makes all these verses flow seamlessly together as at that time. For example:

Matthew 24:16

• "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: "

Matthew 24:15

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

Matthew 24:10

• "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Clearly we see an unbroken connection of passages from verse 21 to 9 declaring that "at this time" all these things will happen. To attempt to look at this narrative as diverse eras from verse to verse is to dabble in Eschatological dementia.

God assures us that this [thlipsis] of Matthew 24:21 is speaking about the same time that the things listed in the previous verses were, by saying, then, or "at this time." No novice Greek can make these scriptures "not" say something that they do say.

This is tribulation that is the worse that the world has ever seen, or will see because Satan has gathered his army from the four quarters of the earth. And that if God didn't intervene to shorten the days, there would not be anyone left on earth to be saved. In other words, there would be no Election. Look at the verses carefully to note it's not saying there wouldn't be anyone left on earth. God says that if not, there wouldn't be anyone left on earth "to be saved." Remember, God has said that he that shall endure to the end shall be saved. Thus the days have to be shortened for the sake of the elect. That's what Matthew 24 says. I didn't make that up. So if these days of these false prophets, deception, and great tribulation were not shortened, then no one would be saved. That means the apostasy would so devastate (desolate) the Church that there wouldn't be any election left to be saved if it were allowed to continue. But for sake of the Elect, God assures us those days shall be shortened. How beautiful is God's Word when it is unadulterated by secular stories, ideas and theories. That is how consistent God's Word is when it is allowed to interpret itself.

The third and final verse tribulation or [thlipsis] occurs in Matthew 24 is in verse 29.

Matthew 24:29

• "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

So here again, God doesn't leave His Word up to Josephus to interpret it's time period, He says immediately after the tribulation "of those days," which is a continuing theme. What days are in view? The very same days of tribulation that He has just been talking about from the start of the chapter. Thus no eschatological gymnastics to introduce another tribulation 2000 years before is necessary.

There are no other verses in Matthew 24 which use the word tribulation or [thlipsis], and so your thinking that we are all theologically ignorant so that we cannot see this other alleged tribulation in this chapter, is clearly without any foundation in fact.

It is talking about the CHURCH, not an unholy Jewish Temple practicing sacrilege in AD 70. The church is the only physical holy place after the Cross that could have abomination stand in it. Those told to flee are the Elect. Those on the housetops are the Elect. Those in the field (at this time) are the Elect. Those with child is a 'figure' of the church. Thus God is saying, Woe to the Church! Why? Because "she" will be judged of God as the great harlot Babylon that she is. And that is why the Elect are commanded to flee to the mountains, that they not be partaker with her (Revelation 18). Again, when we read it in context, and comparing Scripture with Scripture for our interpretation, we have consistency.

 

[TribulationSigns]

And I also like to response to false premillennialist's 7 year of Great Tribulation.

Christ's purpose was to save "ALL" His people. It was His purpose to have all "these" men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 1:21

• "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His People from their sins."

Not all people, but all "His" people. He is the Savior of the world OF ELECT, not the savior of every single person in the world. Keep that in mind.

In addition, one contention that people will have also been converted by the millions to the Gospel of the Kingdom is a contradiction of God's word. There is not one shred of biblical evidence of a conversion of millions to the gospel during the Great Tribulation. God tells us that the Great Tribulation will be a time when the love of God has grown cold, and the believers will be hated and persecuted, and iniquity will abound, and that there are so many false gospels, false Christs, and false prophets deceiving so greatly, that they would even deceive the very Chosen of God "IF THAT WERE POSSIBLE." Does that really sound like a phenomenal worldwide conversion at this time to you, or are you listening of the words of men.

Matthew 24:11-13

• And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
• And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
• But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:21-25

• For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
  beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
  saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
• Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe
  it not.
• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
  great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
  deceive the very elect.
• Behold, I have told you before.

In all seriousness, does this so-called 7 years great tribulation period sound like the converting of millions? Come on! On the contrary! It is tortuous of Scripture to claim that. It sounds like a famine of hearing the word of God, not a great bounty. A deception so great that the gospel is being pinched off, not so preached that it is saving millions. It's a time of apostasy, departing from the faith, and false teachers. That's no revival, that's a desolation. That will occur during the little season when Satan is loosened after the building of the church and the testimony of Two Witnesses are finished. Period.

In fact, that's what is illustrated in those very passages of Matthew 24 as it states that it's such tribulation, that in those days weren't shortened there would be no flesh left on earth that would be SAVED! Totally opposite of what premillennialism doctrine teaches. We can't simply deny this, and boldly claim that it's going to be a time when millions are converted to the gospel. Where is this teaching in Scripture? No where! It is another doctrine of man. The Gospel says it's a time of such persecution of true believers, and of false gospels abounding so strongly that if those days weren't shortened, no flesh would be saved. How does that translate into millions saved, humm?

I'm sure they read Matthew 24 and what Jesus has to say about the Great Tribulation, but have they not received what they have read? They have read it but have they heard it? The Lord will shorten the days and return on the clouds of glory "while" there is still flesh (The Chosen) left on earth to be rapture. He has to or else these false prophets and their evil and iniquity abounding there would have physically killed all the Christians off the face of the Earth. There would be none left for God to catch up in the clouds of glory at His second advent (commonly called the rapture). But there will be a rapture because God will shorten those days of tribulation for this purpose! There will be those caught up in the heavens after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29)!

Matthew 24:29-31

• Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
• And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
  shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
  coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
• And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
  shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven
  to the other."

Immediately after the tribulation of those days (for the Elect) means the Elect no longer suffer great tribulation becasue they have came out of unfaithful church. And they will see the sun darkened, moon not giving out her light, and stars falling and realize that it is the time of God's judgment upon unfaithful whore for one hour. After this, the Son of man appears in sky at the last trump when he will send angels to gather "alive and remain" Elect on Earth.

See, the judgment of the church and the rapture does NOT come until AFTER the great tribulation period. First the judgment of the church, then the rapture. The rapture will occur at the Last Trumpet. THis proves that the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 will be the LAST! The last trump. What this proves is that the last trumpet cannot occur before this trumpet as premillennialists like us to believe! Think about it. ..it's an impossibility for the last trumpet (1st Cor. 15:52) of the rapture (a rapture which they claim is before this Great Tribulation) to occur before the Matthew 24 trumpet. ..else it is not the last trumpet!

Matthew 24 makes it clear these false Christians dominate, they are ruling in the Temple. The question is, why don't these unfaithful Christians in this time of tribulation hear the gospel and reject the false teachings. The answer is because they don't want to hear what God has to say. In all likelihood, those denying God's word are the very ones who it's speaking about as the deceived. Those wresting God's word in order to have their way, those seeking signs and wonders, those attuned to false teachers, those with itching ears, and those bearing false witnesses to the truth. Read what God actually says about this time.

(Continue to next post due to space)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Continue from previous post)

Matthew 24:21-26

• ""for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And EXCEPT those days should be shortened, there should no flesh BE SAVED: but FOR THE CHOSEN'S SAKE those days shall be shortened.
• then if any man shall say unto YOU, lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great Signs and Wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE even the very chosen.
• Behold, I have told you before.
• Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

How much clearer can Jesus say it. It's not a time of great revival of millions, on the CONTRARY, it's a time of great wickedness among those who believe, so much and so cleverly deceiving that it would even deceive the elect/chosen if it were possible. And Jesus tells us they'll hate "YOU," they'll persecute "YOU," they'll seek to deceive "YOU," they'll say to "YOU" here is Christ or there is Christ. And Jesus says to "YOU," don't Believe them! Don't follow them! It's "YOU" (Whom Christ is talking to) who they are after and try to deceive. And Jesus says, Behold, I've already told you about this before. ...And He has, but these people (as demonstrated here) just do not listen. But the Noble Bereans, the humble, the meek WILL listen and will HEAR. And what does Jesus tell "US" the nature of these who come to deceive is:

1.) The False Prophets, false Christs, coming to deceive.
2.) And what does Jesus say is their method of deception?
3.) They come with Signs and Wonders to deceive!

Same as in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2 where God warns the church about this coming apostasy of those in league with Satan coming with all Signs and LYING Wonders. There it is again. The warning to the Church. Because we'll be here! We need to know that Satan comes as a messenger of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (false prophets and christs) so we will not be deceived. And what does the apostle Paul say to the church. The same thing Jesus said.

2nd Thessalonians 2:5

• "Remembering ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things."

Yes, we have been told time and time again, in Matthew, in Timothy, in 2nd Thessalonians, in Revelation, etc., etc. But some are just not listening and so they have no one to blame but themselves when they are deceived by these people come into the Church with their own authorities instead of the Word of God.

None of your teachers or the Dispensational authors have explained 'coherently' HOW Jesus is talking to the church in Matthew 24, telling them (WARNING US) about this coming time and how to endure to the end so that they'll be saved, and yet they teach we'll not even be here at this time of Great Tribulation. It cannot be talking only to Jews of the first century. The Lord is obviously talking to the church, and so why would He be warning those who He's going to take out of the world before this happens, to watch for it and endure? It makes no sense because it's not true.

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake".

That "for Christ's name sake!" Those who take the name of Christ are the body of Christ, the church, and their names are Christians. Not the Jews of 70AD, nor the Jews of 1948AD, nor the post rapture "tribulation saints." There are not two salvation programs, there is only one body of Christ. How then is the Christians still here and being persecuted for His name sake, and yet people continue to insist that this is not true and claim they've been raptured first because the Lord doesn't want His people to suffer through His wrath? Sigh..... Who then are these people if not the lord's people, and how then are they going through this for His namesake? Again, it makes no sense.

Inconsistency of the Preterism and Premillennialism are the hallmark of error. And this isn't the only place God warns the church about this, so it's not subject to claims of it being an obscure reference, or just to the Jews. We will be here during the Tribulation, but "ONLY" those who have strength in Christ will endure to the end and be saved and will be rapture at the sound of the Last Trump. The others (those not TRUSTING in the authority of His word) will be deceived and marked of the beast! behold, He has told us before.

 

[David in NJ]

And I also like to response to false premillennialist's 7 year of Great Tribulation.

Christ's purpose was to save "ALL" His people. It was His purpose to have all "these" men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Matthew 1:21

• "And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His People from their sins."

Not all people, but all "His" people. He is the Savior of the world OF ELECT, not the savior of every single person in the world. Keep that in mind.

In addition, one contention that people will have also been converted by the millions to the Gospel of the Kingdom is a contradiction of God's word. There is not one shred of biblical evidence of a conversion of millions to the gospel during the Great Tribulation. God tells us that the Great Tribulation will be a time when the love of God has grown cold, and the believers will be hated and persecuted, and iniquity will abound, and that there are so many false gospels, false Christs, and false prophets deceiving so greatly, that they would even deceive the very Chosen of God "IF THAT WERE POSSIBLE." Does that really sound like a phenomenal worldwide conversion at this time to you, or are you listening of the words of men.

Matthew 24:11-13

• And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
• And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
• But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Matthew 24:21-25

• For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
  beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be
  saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
• Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe
  it not.
• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew
  great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall
  deceive the very elect.
• Behold, I have told you before.

In all seriousness, does this so-called 7 years great tribulation period sound like the converting of millions? Come on! On the contrary! It is tortuous of Scripture to claim that. It sounds like a famine of hearing the word of God, not a great bounty. A deception so great that the gospel is being pinched off, not so preached that it is saving millions. It's a time of apostasy, departing from the faith, and false teachers. That's no revival, that's a desolation. That will occur during the little season when Satan is loosened after the building of the church and the testimony of Two Witnesses are finished. Period.

In fact, that's what is illustrated in those very passages of Matthew 24 as it states that it's such tribulation, that in those days weren't shortened there would be no flesh left on earth that would be SAVED! Totally opposite of what premillennialism doctrine teaches. We can't simply deny this, and boldly claim that it's going to be a time when millions are converted to the gospel. Where is this teaching in Scripture? No where! It is another doctrine of man. The Gospel says it's a time of such persecution of true believers, and of false gospels abounding so strongly that if those days weren't shortened, no flesh would be saved. How does that translate into millions saved, humm?

I'm sure they read Matthew 24 and what Jesus has to say about the Great Tribulation, but have they not received what they have read? They have read it but have they heard it? The Lord will shorten the days and return on the clouds of glory "while" there is still flesh (The Chosen) left on earth to be rapture. He has to or else these false prophets and their evil and iniquity abounding there would have physically killed all the Christians off the face of the Earth. There would be none left for God to catch up in the clouds of glory at His second advent (commonly called the rapture). But there will be a rapture because God will shorten those days of tribulation for this purpose! There will be those caught up in the heavens after the Tribulation (Matthew 24:29)!

Matthew 24:29-31

• Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
• And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then
  shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man
  coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
• And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they
  shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven
  to the other."

Immediately after the tribulation of those days (for the Elect) means the Elect no longer suffer great tribulation becasue they have came out of unfaithful church. And they will see the sun darkened, moon not giving out her light, and stars falling and realize that it is the time of God's judgment upon unfaithful whore for one hour. After this, the Son of man appears in sky at the last trump when he will send angels to gather "alive and remain" Elect on Earth.

See, the judgment of the church and the rapture does NOT come until AFTER the great tribulation period. First the judgment of the church, then the rapture. The rapture will occur at the Last Trumpet. THis proves that the trumpet of Matthew 24:31 will be the LAST! The last trump. What this proves is that the last trumpet cannot occur before this trumpet as premillennialists like us to believe! Think about it. ..it's an impossibility for the last trumpet (1st Cor. 15:52) of the rapture (a rapture which they claim is before this Great Tribulation) to occur before the Matthew 24 trumpet. ..else it is not the last trumpet!

Matthew 24 makes it clear these false Christians dominate, they are ruling in the Temple. The question is, why don't these unfaithful Christians in this time of tribulation hear the gospel and reject the false teachings. The answer is because they don't want to hear what God has to say. In all likelihood, those denying God's word are the very ones who it's speaking about as the deceived. Those wresting God's word in order to have their way, those seeking signs and wonders, those attuned to false teachers, those with itching ears, and those bearing false witnesses to the truth. Read what God actually says about this time.

(Continue to next post due to space)

i am not a "premiilinialist"

 

[Davidpt]

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

There is not just normal tribulation, there will be "GREAT" tribulation such as has never been seen before on earth because Satan will be loosed and allowed to overcome "ALL" the Churches as judgment. The light has been put out, the witness or testimony of the saints unto Salvation is ended. That we see this darkness is not progressive revelation, but something we recognize because it is something that has never happened before! Some people claimed it was in 70A.D. are incorrect.



Perhaps you should consider with the next verse:

Matthew 24:21-22

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Then shall be great tribulation. For who? For the Saints! God will avenge those who cry out to him day and night because of the abominations that will occur in His house (Church). God's loosing of Satan is judgment (Revelation chapter 20) FOR THAT unfaithfulness. And when Satan is loosed by God as a judgment upon the wicked, unfaithful congregation, obviously that tribulation upon the saints will be greater than ever "because" people will be more at enmity than ever before. I mean, it's not rocket science, if you multiply the number of people causing normal tribulation since Pentecost, then there will be "Great" of the same Tribulation. Thus, because Satan rules the nations as a army from the four quarters of the earth (Revelation 20), then shall be great tribulation such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. "No, nor ever shall be BECAUSE Satan will be loosed and then comes the fall of the church, closely followed by Christ's return. Just as is clearly illustrated by God in Matthew 24:29-31.

The three passage of Matthew 24 that have the word tribulation [thilpsis] in them we have proven without question refer to the CHURCH, and to the end time period. And not one of these threee instances can be shown in Matthew as referring to AD 70! I will go over the three places for you:

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

We've already seen that this is the tribulation of the church. I believe you have confessed as much. So we can scratch that as your proof of a multiple tribulation period in Matthew 24.

The second verse that the word tribulation or [thlipsis] occurs in Matthew chapter 24, is verse 21.

Matthew 24:21-22

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened."

Here again, the word "then" [tote] or at that time, connects this verse 21 to the preceding verses, which in tern connect to preceding verses of 20-10 and 10 connects it to 5-9. There is no gap, it's one period. Look how the word "then" [tote] or at that time makes all these verses flow seamlessly together as at that time. For example:

Matthew 24:16

• "Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: "

Matthew 24:15

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

Matthew 24:10

• "And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another."

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake."

Clearly we see an unbroken connection of passages from verse 21 to 9 declaring that "at this time" all these things will happen. To attempt to look at this narrative as diverse eras from verse to verse is to dabble in Eschatological dementia.

God assures us that this [thlipsis] of Matthew 24:21 is speaking about the same time that the things listed in the previous verses were, by saying, then, or "at this time." No novice Greek can make these scriptures "not" say something that they do say.

This is tribulation that is the worse that the world has ever seen, or will see because Satan has gathered his army from the four quarters of the earth. And that if God didn't intervene to shorten the days, there would not be anyone left on earth to be saved. In other words, there would be no Election. Look at the verses carefully to note it's not saying there wouldn't be anyone left on earth. God says that if not, there wouldn't be anyone left on earth "to be saved." Remember, God has said that he that shall endure to the end shall be saved. Thus the days have to be shortened for the sake of the elect. That's what Matthew 24 says. I didn't make that up. So if these days of these false prophets, deception, and great tribulation were not shortened, then no one would be saved. That means the apostasy would so devastate (desolate) the Church that there wouldn't be any election left to be saved if it were allowed to continue. But for sake of the Elect, God assures us those days shall be shortened. How beautiful is God's Word when it is unadulterated by secular stories, ideas and theories. That is how consistent God's Word is when it is allowed to interpret itself.

The third and final verse tribulation or [thlipsis] occurs in Matthew 24 is in verse 29.

Matthew 24:29

• "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:"

So here again, God doesn't leave His Word up to Josephus to interpret it's time period, He says immediately after the tribulation "of those days," which is a continuing theme. What days are in view? The very same days of tribulation that He has just been talking about from the start of the chapter. Thus no eschatological gymnastics to introduce another tribulation 2000 years before is necessary.

There are no other verses in Matthew 24 which use the word tribulation or [thlipsis], and so your thinking that we are all theologically ignorant so that we cannot see this other alleged tribulation in this chapter, is clearly without any foundation in fact.

It is talking about the CHURCH, not an unholy Jewish Temple practicing sacrilege in AD 70. The church is the only physical holy place after the Cross that could have abomination stand in it. Those told to flee are the Elect. Those on the housetops are the Elect. Those in the field (at this time) are the Elect. Those with child is a 'figure' of the church. Thus God is saying, Woe to the Church! Why? Because "she" will be judged of God as the great harlot Babylon that she is. And that is why the Elect are commanded to flee to the mountains, that they not be partaker with her (Revelation 18). Again, when we read it in context, and comparing Scripture with Scripture for our interpretation, we have consistency.

I have to admit, though this post obviously implies Amil, at least your version anyway, it makes good sense over all.

 

[David in NJ]

Spiritual binding of Satan placing him in a spiritual prison 2000 years ago.

Satan was placed in the Revelation 20:1-3 prison 2,000 years ago?

There is not one scripture that declares this AND you are denouncing the words of Christ and the Apostles including Revelation.

You desperately need to sober UP to Truth

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These are the words of the One who holds the sharp, double-edged sword.

I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits, yet you hold fast to My Name.
You did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of My faithful witness Antipas, who was killed among you where Satan dwells.

 

[WPM]

No, that my brother is the corroboration of Genesis and the Gospel and His 2nd Coming.

This is as clear as mud. What are you trying to say?

 

[WPM]

Satan was placed in the Revelation 20:1-3 prison 2,000 years ago?

There is not one scripture that declares this AND you are denouncing the words of Christ and the Apostles including Revelation.

You desperately need to sober UP to Truth

Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

To the angel of the church in Pergamum write:

These are the words of the One who holds the sharp, double-edged sword.

I know where you live, where the throne of Satan sits, yet you hold fast to My Name.
You did not deny your faith in Me, even in the days of My faithful witness Antipas, who was killed among you where Satan dwells.

My last post addressed and refuted what you are saying here yet you still continue to promote your view. I refer you back.

 

[David in NJ]

This is as clear as mud. What are you trying to say?

Good point - Thank You

In Genesis God used "mud" and CLEARED it UP to make a Man = Adam = and from Adam HE made a woman - Eve his wife

You have heard the saying "two is company and three is a crowd"

Well the Serpent showed up uninvited and from there the waters became very MUDDY with SIN

God SAVED the Day when He came to earth and CLEAR UP the Mud of Sin on the Cross

Adding Blessing upon Blessing JESUS then went back to the FATHER so that the HOLY SPIRIT of TRUTH could come to us.

Because even after our sins are forgiven, there is 6000+ years of Muddy water that needs Clearing UP from our hearts and minds.

 

[WPM]

i am not a "premiilinialist"

What are you?

 

[WPM]

Good point - Thank You

In Genesis God used "mud" and CLEARED it UP to make a Man = Adam = and from Adam HE made a woman - Eve his wife

Be back in a bit

You talk so cryptic. You often sound like you are on something or drunk.

 

[David in NJ]

What are you?

i am who IAM created me to be for His Glory

 

[David in NJ]

You talk so cryptic. You often sound like you are on something or drunk.

Be not drunk with wine but be FILLED with the Holy Spirit

 

[Nancy]

(Continue from previous post)

Matthew 24:21-26

• ""for then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
• And EXCEPT those days should be shortened, there should no flesh BE SAVED: but FOR THE CHOSEN'S SAKE those days shall be shortened.
• then if any man shall say unto YOU, lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
• For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great Signs and Wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall DECEIVE even the very chosen.
• Behold, I have told you before.
• Wherefore if they shall say unto you, behold, He is in the desert; go not forth: behold, He is in the secret chambers; believe it not."

How much clearer can Jesus say it. It's not a time of great revival of millions, on the CONTRARY, it's a time of great wickedness among those who believe, so much and so cleverly deceiving that it would even deceive the elect/chosen if it were possible. And Jesus tells us they'll hate "YOU," they'll persecute "YOU," they'll seek to deceive "YOU," they'll say to "YOU" here is Christ or there is Christ. And Jesus says to "YOU," don't Believe them! Don't follow them! It's "YOU" (Whom Christ is talking to) who they are after and try to deceive. And Jesus says, Behold, I've already told you about this before. ...And He has, but these people (as demonstrated here) just do not listen. But the Noble Bereans, the humble, the meek WILL listen and will HEAR. And what does Jesus tell "US" the nature of these who come to deceive is:

1.) The False Prophets, false Christs, coming to deceive.
2.) And what does Jesus say is their method of deception?
3.) They come with Signs and Wonders to deceive!

Same as in 2nd Thessalonians 2:2 where God warns the church about this coming apostasy of those in league with Satan coming with all Signs and LYING Wonders. There it is again. The warning to the Church. Because we'll be here! We need to know that Satan comes as a messenger of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (false prophets and christs) so we will not be deceived. And what does the apostle Paul say to the church. The same thing Jesus said.

2nd Thessalonians 2:5

• "Remembering ye not, that when I was yet with you, I told you these things."

Yes, we have been told time and time again, in Matthew, in Timothy, in 2nd Thessalonians, in Revelation, etc., etc. But some are just not listening and so they have no one to blame but themselves when they are deceived by these people come into the Church with their own authorities instead of the Word of God.

None of your teachers or the Dispensational authors have explained 'coherently' HOW Jesus is talking to the church in Matthew 24, telling them (WARNING US) about this coming time and how to endure to the end so that they'll be saved, and yet they teach we'll not even be here at this time of Great Tribulation. It cannot be talking only to Jews of the first century. The Lord is obviously talking to the church, and so why would He be warning those who He's going to take out of the world before this happens, to watch for it and endure? It makes no sense because it's not true.

Matthew 24:9

• "Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake".

That "for Christ's name sake!" Those who take the name of Christ are the body of Christ, the church, and their names are Christians. Not the Jews of 70AD, nor the Jews of 1948AD, nor the post rapture "tribulation saints." There are not two salvation programs, there is only one body of Christ. How then is the Christians still here and being persecuted for His name sake, and yet people continue to insist that this is not true and claim they've been raptured first because the Lord doesn't want His people to suffer through His wrath? Sigh..... Who then are these people if not the lord's people, and how then are they going through this for His namesake? Again, it makes no sense.

Inconsistency of the Preterism and Premillennialism are the hallmark of error. And this isn't the only place God warns the church about this, so it's not subject to claims of it being an obscure reference, or just to the Jews. We will be here during the Tribulation, but "ONLY" those who have strength in Christ will endure to the end and be saved and will be rapture at the sound of the Last Trump. The others (those not TRUSTING in the authority of His word) will be deceived and marked of the beast! behold, He has told us before.

Thank you for the replies. I have no comment because this is a lot to digest. Thank you though!

 

[David in NJ]

You talk so cryptic. You often sound like you are on something or drunk.

Short 5 min read

Ancient Pergamon

Ancient Pergamon: Hellenistic powerhouse of science, medicine and imperial cult—yet called “Satan’s throne” in Revelation. Explore its altar, library and legacy.

www.biblicalarchaeology.org