A Moral Framework for Same Sex Unions?

[aspen]

Lepers were also banned from the Temple because of their 'sin'

 

[FHII]

Yep, so were people with crooked noses, backs and "bruised stones".

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Just a small point here. That is what homosexual fundies say to convince us that homosexuality is not a sin. There are no victims they cry, but it could not be further from the truth.

Here are some of the victims and how they are hurt by it.

Young homosexuals are told that their homosexuality is normal so they are hurt by it because it is not so they are believing a lie.


You're arguing against their perspective, not mine. I share the same views on homosexuality as you do in regard to it being a deviation from God's plan and God's law. What I'm trying to explain is their point of view, which never seems to be considered in these discussions. There's a reason they don't believe that a committed same sex union is sinful and it's not because they are thumbing their nose at God.


Homosexuals are told that you are born that way so if they have an unwanted same sex attraction, they have to live with it, they can't get help to lose it.


While it may or may not be true that homosexuals are "born that way" one thing is for certain, they didn't choose same sex attraction. That's a myth passed around by Christian fundamentalists who love to talk about homosexuals but never talk to them. Homosexuals discover their sexual leanings about the same time the rest of us do, at the cusp of puberty. The reason I make issue about this is we can't even begin to have a fruitful discussion on homosexuality if our base of knowledge is riddled with errors.


You are at greater risk of AIDS per head of population if you are a homosexual so your life expectancy is shorter.

STD is greater in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community.

Rejection amongst homosexuals is very high so the preponderance to suicide follows.

Your statements indicate you don't even come close to understanding the issues that affect homosexual. You lump all homosexuals in the same basket, but they aren't the same. Homosexual prostitutes, cross-dressers, and such who live the life of casual sex with multiple parties, drug use, and living a life of debauchery are clearly living a life of sin, according to you and I and also according to homosexuals who attempt to follow God's laws and live in committed, monogamous relationships. If you read the OP, you would see that I approach this from the viewpoint of my friends, two dignified ladies with strong moral values and in a committed relationship with one another. Clearly some homosexuals have abandoned themselves to unbridled depravity and others have not. They can't both be lumped together because they have nothing in common with homosexual libertines any more than you or I have in common with heterosexual libertines.



I doubt that it is making a point as God forgives and forgets our sin, so if I lie (once) and later confess, it is forgiven and forgotten.

Some people have a fixation about sin, which minimises the saving work of Christ as it says his blood covers my sin but I still have to worry about it every day.

The scripture says that the law of the spirit of life sets me free from the law of sin and death. Now, either I am set free from the law of sin and death or I am not. It is not a case of a dollar each way.

I am confident that if I walk in the Spirit which I am called to do, he is quite able to warn me against sin and remind me if I have sinned which I can get forgiveness for and I don't need any priest to confess it to as I have the great High Priest for that purpose.

Are you able to have a conversation on this topic without letting your acrimony toward the Catholic Church seep through your clenched teeth? It's difficult to take you seriously when you steer the conversation pursuant to an ulterior agenda.

 

[Pelaides]

Repentance follows conviction, conviction that we are sinners. And every one of us sinners falls in the category of knowing what it's like to be completely unaware they are sinning until they are brought to that realization. But what's more telling is the fact that we continue to sin and offend God in ways beyond our perception. If we didn't, then our sanctification would be complete, but it's never complete in this vale of tears. It's never complete until Christ glorifies us. In this I'm not offering you anything you didn't already understand.

In regards to the sin of homosexuality, it becomes more difficult to see it as sin precisely because nobody is visibly hurt by it. I don't have to labor long to convince somebody that they sinned when they steal, rape, or murder because the wrong of it is so profound that it's sensed by everyone, Christian or non-Christian, and the laws that govern society are based on those actions that clearly does violence to the rights of the individual.

And bringing this to the issue of homosexuality, I can see somebody who lives a life of casual sex, homosexual orgies in tandem with drug use, and prostitution and crossdressing coming to understand their life is empty and the path they're going down is wrong. A strong case can be made that this was the epidemic that was clearly condemned by Scripture and the reason that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an angel. Gangs of homosexuals roamed the streets finding new victims and destroying all that was decent. In fact, the Bible says that God destroyed the cities because of the outcry of their neighbors, meaning that once the cities were corrupted, they metastasized to outlying population centers. In summary, what was happening was a clear case of harm visited upon people by other people. The sin in this could not be more obvious.

But when we're talking about my two lady friends, it's a far cry from the plunderers, rapists, and oppressors that defined ancient Canaan, whose practices the Israelites were commanded not to imitate. From their point of view, nobody is being hurt, oppressed, or in any way deprived of basic individual rights by their choice to enter into a voluntary union with each other. Without demonstrable harm, the task of compelling them to believe their relationship is sin becomes very steep indeed; particularly because their love for each other is solid, committed, and unshakable, a real thing of substance.

In the Christian community, there's no lack of condemnation for the sin of homosexuality. But while we're rich in judgment, we are niggardly in understanding their point of view because, as I often touted here, we talk about them but not to them. We impose upon them a standard that we hypocritically don't follow ourselves, demanding they be sinless before coming to Christ. But none of us came to Christ that way. We all came with sin and darkened understanding of God's ways and we continue to be adumbrated, seeing in a mirror dimly, our offensive ignorance being covered by a deluge of grace. I suggest that rather than impose an impossible standard, that we embrace everyone who wants seek the love of Christ as brothers and sisters and allow the process of sanctification to work out everything else.

You must be a close friend of former Idaho senator larry craig.

Just a small point here. That is what homosexual fundies say to convince us that homosexuality is not a sin. There are no victims they cry, but it could not be further from the truth.

Here are some of the victims and how they are hurt by it.

Young homosexuals are told that their homosexuality is normal so they are hurt by it because it is not so they are believing a lie.

Homosexuals are told that you are born that way so if they have an unwanted same sex attraction, they have to live with it, they can't get help to lose it.

You are at greater risk of AIDS per head of population if you are a homosexual so your life expectancy is shorter.

STD is greater in the homosexual community than in the heterosexual community.

Rejection amongst homosexuals is very high so the preponderance to suicide follows.

Violence between homosexual partners is higher than otherwise so homosexual relationships can be very dangerous.

Multiple sexual partners are very high in the homosexual community. Research shows some who have had sex with over 500 different men. That is bound to produce emotional dysfunction and instability.

Homosexual relationships are very transient. On average they last two years so anyone wanting a long term relationship is going to be very disappointed.

Whilst the non homosexual community has its problems, it is not as bad as those who are in the homosexual community.


I doubt that it is making a point as God forgives and forgets our sin, so if I lie (once) and later confess, it is forgiven and forgotten.

Some people have a fixation about sin, which minimises the saving work of Christ as it says his blood covers my sin but I still have to worry about it every day.

The scripture says that the law of the spirit of life sets me free from the law of sin and death. Now, either I am set free from the law of sin and death or I am not. It is not a case of a dollar each way.

I am confident that if I walk in the Spirit which I am called to do, he is quite able to warn me against sin and remind me if I have sinned which I can get forgiveness for and I don't need any priest to confess it to as I have the great High Priest for that purpose.

You forgot to mention the gay demon priests,that have infiltrated the church,and are molesting the children.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

This thread reposted here: http://thepoliticsforums.com/threads/9100-A-Moral-Framework-For-Same-Sex-Unions to gain the opinions of another audience.

 

[Wormwood]

Repentance follows conviction, conviction that we are sinners. And every one of us sinners falls in the category of knowing what it's like to be completely unaware they are sinning until they are brought to that realization. But what's more telling is the fact that we continue to sin and offend God in ways beyond our perception. If we didn't, then our sanctification would be complete, but it's never complete in this vale of tears. It's never complete until Christ glorifies us. In this I'm not offering you anything you didn't already understand.

In regards to the sin of homosexuality, it becomes more difficult to see it as sin precisely because nobody is visibly hurt by it. I don't have to labor long to convince somebody that they sinned when they steal, rape, or murder because the wrong of it is so profound that it's sensed by everyone, Christian or non-Christian, and the laws that govern society are based on those actions that clearly does violence to the rights of the individual.

And bringing this to the issue of homosexuality, I can see somebody who lives a life of casual sex, homosexual orgies in tandem with drug use, and prostitution and crossdressing coming to understand their life is empty and the path they're going down is wrong. A strong case can be made that this was the epidemic that was clearly condemned by Scripture and the reason that Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by an angel. Gangs of homosexuals roamed the streets finding new victims and destroying all that was decent. In fact, the Bible says that God destroyed the cities because of the outcry of their neighbors, meaning that once the cities were corrupted, they metastasized to outlying population centers. In summary, what was happening was a clear case of harm visited upon people by other people. The sin in this could not be more obvious.

But when we're talking about my two lady friends, it's a far cry from the plunderers, rapists, and oppressors that defined ancient Canaan, whose practices the Israelites were commanded not to imitate. From their point of view, nobody is being hurt, oppressed, or in any way deprived of basic individual rights by their choice to enter into a voluntary union with each other. Without demonstrable harm, the task of compelling them to believe their relationship is sin becomes very steep indeed; particularly because their love for each other is solid, committed, and unshakable, a real thing of substance.

In the Christian community, there's no lack of condemnation for the sin of homosexuality. But while we're rich in judgment, we are niggardly in understanding their point of view because, as I often touted here, we talk about them but not to them. We impose upon them a standard that we hypocritically don't follow ourselves, demanding they be sinless before coming to Christ. But none of us came to Christ that way. We all came with sin and darkened understanding of God's ways and we continue to be adumbrated, seeing in a mirror dimly, our offensive ignorance being covered by a deluge of grace. I suggest that rather than impose an impossible standard, that we embrace everyone who wants seek the love of Christ as brothers and sisters and allow the process of sanctification to work out everything else.

VOT,

Your logic is so fraught with problems that it is hard to address it all here. I appreciate your heart for your friends. But since when do we classify "serious" sins as those that are "obvious" and hurt others? So can I perform benign witchcraft as long as I don't hurt anyone? Can I indulge in daily doses of pornography as long as I am not touching anyone else and it is no big deal? Can we wink at people having intercourse with animals because no one is really being injured? After all, they aren't roaming the streets looking to hurt people! I think you have been shaped in your thinking much more by our culture than by the actual statements God makes in Scripture about sin. Most of the idol worship Israel was involved in did not include hurting others.

The reality is much of the church is silent on the issue of homosexuality or is embracing it to the point of even allowing church leadership to embrace that lifestyle. Sure, there are radical foolish elements like the crazy Baptist cult in Topeka, and most like to use them as an example of the "church's" brash condemnations on this lifestyle. But that is not really the facts. The reality is most of the major protestant denominations are embracing the lifestyle not only as acceptable, but as permissible for clergy.

In any event, my original point was NO ONE can live a lifestyle that is an abomination to God and claim to be a disciple of Jesus. Whether that is heterosexual promiscuity, indulging in pornography, habitual cheating and lying, violence, sorcery, or whatever else. Saying, "Well if it doesn't hurt anyone" as a means to excuse it as not worthy of our complete condemnation or God's wrath is utter nonsense and completely void of Biblical teaching. "If anyone leads one of these little ones to sin, it would be better if they had a millstone tied around their neck and were tossed into the sea." - Jesus

 

[horsecamp]

confessional lutherans believe after the fall sin has infected even our brains our GENES .. so that some people are now born

with tendencies to be murder's, homosexuals, child molesters and abusers etc etc etc ..

yet born that way or not these things are still sinful in Gods eyes .

sin has caused us to loose Gods image But through faith in Jesus God restores HIS image in us .. And that image no longer wants to be murders homosexuals, thiefs, child molesters or do any other type of sinful behavor.

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.



THIS IS A CATHOLIC SITE
http://angelqueen.org/2013/10/21/frank-the-hippie-pope-a-lutheran-satire-production/

or you can go to the lutheran satire site on you tube and watch "FRANK THE HIPPY POPE" there.

http://www.youtube.com/user/TheLutheranSatire

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

VOT,

Your logic is so fraught with problems that it is hard to address it all here. I appreciate your heart for your friends. But since when do we classify "serious" sins as those that are "obvious" and hurt others? So can I perform benign witchcraft as long as I don't hurt anyone? Can I indulge in daily doses of pornography as long as I am not touching anyone else and it is no big deal? Can we wink at people having intercourse with animals because no one is really being injured? After all, they aren't roaming the streets looking to hurt people! I think you have been shaped in your thinking much more by our culture than by the actual statements God makes in Scripture about sin. Most of the idol worship Israel was involved in did not include hurting others.


It's unfortunate that I've been unsuccessful at keeping from being framed as the originator of this argument. I'm trying to explain a viewpoint that I don't really share but that explains how homosexual Christians approach this issue. It should be noted that while all sins are equal in their capacity to separate us from a holy God, they are unequal in regard to culpability. This was evident, for example, when Jesus told Pilate, "the one who delivered me to you has the greater sin." The Romans were crucifying a politically undesirable person, but the Jews were crucifying the Messiah for which they waited for centuries, they called for the death of their God. Same sin, but different severities of indictment. The same goes for homosexuality. We don't disagree that homosexuality is outside the will of God, but there's a difference between the roving gangs of homosexual sodomites who oppressed their neighbors and by whose actions the cities were destroyed in Genesis and two lesbian ladies entering into a committed relationship with each other that does no harm to anyone else. I believe that one is more sinful than the other, my lady friends don't believe it's sin at all. That's where we differ.


The reality is much of the church is silent on the issue of homosexuality or is embracing it to the point of even allowing church leadership to embrace that lifestyle. Sure, there are radical foolish elements like the crazy Baptist cult in Topeka, and most like to use them as an example of the "church's" brash condemnations on this lifestyle. But that is not really the facts. The reality is most of the major protestant denominations are embracing the lifestyle not only as acceptable, but as permissible for clergy.


This has more to do with the fallacy of sola scriptura by which no one person's interpretation of scripture is more authoritative than another's because everyone is claiming the Bible as their authority and the Holy Spirit as their inspiration. I alluded to some of this on my thread, how the Bible is seen differently when alternate points of context are taken into consideration. The homosexuality as practiced by the ancient Canaanites is not the same as that practiced by my friends. To you it may be a distinction without a difference, but others may disagree. And because the Reformation has divested the church of all authority, your opinion might not prevail against another's.


In any event, my original point was NO ONE can live a lifestyle that is an abomination to God and claim to be a disciple of Jesus. Whether that is heterosexual promiscuity, indulging in pornography, habitual cheating and lying, violence, sorcery, or whatever else. Saying, "Well if it doesn't hurt anyone" as a means to excuse it as not worthy of our complete condemnation or God's wrath is utter nonsense and completely void of Biblical teaching. "If anyone leads one of these little ones to sin, it would be better if they had a millstone tied around their neck and were tossed into the sea." - Jesus

I'm in agreement with you, far more than you may realize. Where we might disagree is that I don't think I've compromised the truth by proposing that even those in a same sex union should be held to a moral standard and not abandon themselves to every lust of the flesh. We hold moral standards among our friends. For instance, if you had a close friend who started cheating on his wife, you would be furious with him and might even break off the friendship in moral outrage. Because these ladies are my friends, I would have the same reaction if one of them wasn't faithful to the other, even if I don't believe that their union is compatible with God's plan. This isn't about whether or not homosexuality is a sin, it's about not letting one fault give license to unbridled depravity.

The answer, I think, for many of you is that you don't have any homosexual friends whatsoever and that, in your conscience, it would be tantamount to approving their lifestyle if you befriended them. I'm not in a position to affirm or to reject this thinking because honestly, I just don't know. But what I do know is that I speak from a perspective of having close friends who are gay and nearly all, if not all, of the respondents here do not. Homosexuals feel shunned by Christians and so they're trying to find their own way to God. What I don't want to be guilty of is standing in their way when God opens the door and welcomes them in. God has a heart and a love for homosexuals that many of his followers lack, and that's just a shame.

confessional lutherans believe after the fall sin has infected even our brains our GENES .. so that some people are now born

with tendencies to be murder's, homosexuals, child molesters and abusers etc etc etc ..

yet born that way or not these things are still sinful in Gods eyes .

sin has caused us to loose Gods image But through faith in Jesus God restores it..

Genesis 5:3
When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.


http://angelqueen.org/2013/10/21/frank-the-hippie-pope-a-lutheran-satire-production/

It's a plausible theory. We see physical defects and deformities at birth, why doesn't it make sense that even our brains are affected by the fall with distortions and disorders that God never intended?

 

[Wormwood]

It's unfortunate that I've been unsuccessful at keeping from being framed as the originator of this argument. I'm trying to explain a viewpoint that I don't really share but that explains how homosexual Christians approach this issue. It should be noted that while all sins are equal in their capacity to separate us from a holy God, they are unequal in regard to culpability. This was evident, for example, when Jesus told Pilate, "the one who delivered me to you has the greater sin." The Romans were crucifying a politically undesirable person, but the Jews were crucifying the Messiah for which they waited for centuries, they called for the death of their God. Same sin, but different severities of indictment. The same goes for homosexuality. We don't disagree that homosexuality is outside the will of God, but there's a difference between the roving gangs of homosexual sodomites who oppressed their neighbors and by whose actions the cities were destroyed in Genesis and two lesbian ladies entering into a committed relationship with each other that does no harm to anyone else. I believe that one is more sinful than the other, my lady friends don't believe it's sin at all. That's where we differ.

It doesn't matter whether or not the argument originates with you in my mind. You are proposing it as a valid argument or at least one that we should give consideration. I find it deplorable and void of any Scriptural validity. I do agree with you that sins are unequal with regard to culpability. Sexual sins are among the most grievous to God and this is heavily attested to in Scripture. Paul claims that sexual sins are greater because they are sins against our own body. They are greater because they join the body of Christ with evil (and we are members of that body). Pornea was one of the few restrictions put on Gentiles for them to enter the church in Acts 15. Paul claims that the sexually immoral "will not enter the kingdom of God." He seems to regularly highlight this particular sin. Homosexuality was to be punished by death in Deuteronomy. Romans 1 gives a list of increasing wickedness due to failure to worship God and homosexuality falls at the worst end of the spectrum. Is it worse for someone to be a homosexual rapist than merely a homosexual who practices through consent? Yes, I suppose so. But the practice in general is an abomination and brings the wrath of God on the world. It should not even be suggested that this lifestyle can be practiced within the body of Christ. A little yeast works through the entire batch of dough.

This has more to do with the fallacy of sola scriptura by which no one person's interpretation of scripture is more authoritative than another's because everyone is claiming the Bible as their authority and the Holy Spirit as their inspiration. I alluded to some of this on my thread, how the Bible is seen differently when alternate points of context are taken into consideration. The homosexuality as practiced by the ancient Canaanites is not the same as that practiced by my friends. To you it may be a distinction without a difference, but others may disagree. And because the Reformation has divested the church of all authority, your opinion might not prevail against another's.

Well this is a bit of a tangent that I don't know necessarily belongs on this thread. Yes there are problems with some of the results of the Reformation. However, lets not pretend that everything was hunky dory prior to Reformation. The problem with the ecclesiology behind Protestantism is that it can lead to a great deal of division over varying opinions on Scripture. The problem with the ecclesiology behind the RCC is that while there may be consensus doctrinally, corruption can infiltrate the church in a way that allows it to go completely unchecked (which is what brought about the Reformation in the first place). However, I do think Sola Fide is a very important aspect of the Reformation. The RCC stances on sacraments and the role of the church leads many to a place of seeking grace by association...which can be very troubling. In any event, I know these are just issues we will never agree on. However, lets not paint the picture like Protestants are the only ones with issues.

As for your claim that the "homosexuality practiced by Caananites" is different than what we see today, I can only shake my head. Show me ONE place in any of Jewish or Christian history that speaks of an acceptable practice of homosexuality. Claiming the only real issue God had with homosexuality is the idolatry attached to it is completely false. There is no such thing as an acceptable practice of homosexuality or a version of homosexuality that God gives approval of in Scripture. The homosexual hermeneutic works very hard at dancing around the texts to excuse a behavior that is very explicitly condemned in Scripture. I could make the same argument that it is okay to be a prostitute because the prostitution God objects to in the OT and NT were related to gods of fertility and idol worship. I would be equally wrong. The wickedness of idolatry is on display through the deplorable practices it encourages. Prostitution, homosexuality and the sacrifice of children are among them.

Because these ladies are my friends, I would have the same reaction if one of them wasn't faithful to the other, even if I don't believe that their union is compatible with God's plan. This isn't about whether or not homosexuality is a sin, it's about not letting one fault give license to unbridled depravity.

The answer, I think, for many of you is that you don't have any homosexual friends whatsoever and that, in your conscience, it would be tantamount to approving their lifestyle if you befriended them. I'm not in a position to affirm or to reject this thinking because honestly, I just don't know. But what I do know is that I speak from a perspective of having close friends who are gay and nearly all, if not all, of the respondents here do not. Homosexuals feel shunned by Christians and so they're trying to find their own way to God. What I don't want to be guilty of is standing in their way when God opens the door and welcomes them in. God has a heart and a love for homosexuals that many of his followers lack, and that's just a shame.

You are very presumptuous in your arguments. I have had and do have homosexual friends. We have had frank and honest discussions about these issues. BECAUSE I love them I tell them the truth. I tell them the truth in a loving an gracious way, but I do TELL them. To do otherwise is not to love them. To condone someone's actions that leads them away from God and causes them to embrace that which God abhors is to be anything but a friend. Lots of people feel "shunned" by Christians, especially if they are living in sin. Some of this may be due to the bad actions of Christians but much of it is due to the searing of their own consciences. I am glad you are there to show them that they perceive Christians wrongly...so long as you do the right thing and tell them the truth in a caring way. Suppose a Mormon began to convince you of their beliefs and you started to turn toward Mormonism. Wouldn't you want a Christian to guide you away from error that could endanger you eternally? Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. Sometimes, I need my friends to be brutally honest with me. I believe Proverbs has a lot to say about the enemy multiplying kisses but wounds from a friend can be trusted.

 

[Suhar]

It's a plausible theory. We see physical defects and deformities at birth, why doesn't it make sense that even our brains are affected by the fall with distortions and disorders that God never intended?

[SIZE=medium]Deprived mind is not a birth defect. It is an acquired condition and sounds like you are well on the way of acquiring it.[/SIZE]

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

It doesn't matter whether or not the argument originates with you in my mind. You are proposing it as a valid argument or at least one that we should give consideration. I find it deplorable and void of any Scriptural validity. I do agree with you that sins are unequal with regard to culpability. Sexual sins are among the most grievous to God and this is heavily attested to in Scripture. Paul claims that sexual sins are greater because they are sins against our own body. They are greater because they join the body of Christ with evil (and we are members of that body). Pornea was one of the few restrictions put on Gentiles for them to enter the church in Acts 15. Paul claims that the sexually immoral "will not enter the kingdom of God." He seems to regularly highlight this particular sin. Homosexuality was to be punished by death in Deuteronomy. Romans 1 gives a list of increasing wickedness due to failure to worship God and homosexuality falls at the worst end of the spectrum. Is it worse for someone to be a homosexual rapist than merely a homosexual who practices through consent? Yes, I suppose so. But the practice in general is an abomination and brings the wrath of God on the world. It should not even be suggested that this lifestyle can be practiced within the body of Christ. A little yeast works through the entire batch of dough.

The question of whether or not homosexuality is sin is not in dispute here. What I'm saying is that some practicing homosexuals show traces of grace in their lives, demonstrating through commendable personal conduct that they are in a pursuit of righteousness. A practicing homosexual who enters into a committed relationship, goes to church weekly, and maintains high moral standards and a perpetuates kindness to their fellow man is not the same as a sodomite living the party life, having sex with multiple partners, and doing drugs and booze. Yet you seem to lump them into one basket. I've seen how God works in people's lives to woo them to full epiphany and conversion of heart and it often doesn't happen in one grand gesture, but rather in gradual steps. Some, by their actions, demonstrate they are on a journey to know God and others aren't. They aren't all the same and I'm confident won't be judged the same.




As for your claim that the "homosexuality practiced by Caananites" is different than what we see today, I can only shake my head. Show me ONE place in any of Jewish or Christian history that speaks of an acceptable practice of homosexuality. Claiming the only real issue God had with homosexuality is the idolatry attached to it is completely false. There is no such thing as an acceptable practice of homosexuality or a version of homosexuality that God gives approval of in Scripture. The homosexual hermeneutic works very hard at dancing around the texts to excuse a behavior that is very explicitly condemned in Scripture. I could make the same argument that it is okay to be a prostitute because the prostitution God objects to in the OT and NT were related to gods of fertility and idol worship. I would be equally wrong. The wickedness of idolatry is on display through the deplorable practices it encourages. Prostitution, homosexuality and the sacrifice of children are among them.

Funny. I never once mentioned idolatry unless my Canaanite reference alluded to that because they also worshipped idols; I'll assume that's what you meant. I also never claimed that there's a version of homosexuality that's free from iniquity. What I am saying is that some forms of homosexuality show a misguided pursuit of God's righteousness and others make no attempt at it. What consigns us to perdition is the deliberate rejection of God's love and somebody who's in a committed same sex union isn't necessarily doing that. I've seen the fruits and evidence of God's work in the lives of these women; that they love God and are trying to follow him.

You are very presumptuous in your arguments. I have had and do have homosexual friends. We have had frank and honest discussions about these issues. BECAUSE I love them I tell them the truth. I tell them the truth in a loving an gracious way, but I do TELL them. To do otherwise is not to love them. To condone someone's actions that leads them away from God and causes them to embrace that which God abhors is to be anything but a friend. Lots of people feel "shunned" by Christians, especially if they are living in sin. Some of this may be due to the bad actions of Christians but much of it is due to the searing of their own consciences. I am glad you are there to show them that they perceive Christians wrongly...so long as you do the right thing and tell them the truth in a caring way. Suppose a Mormon began to convince you of their beliefs and you started to turn toward Mormonism. Wouldn't you want a Christian to guide you away from error that could endanger you eternally? Do unto others what you would have them do unto you. Sometimes, I need my friends to be brutally honest with me. I believe Proverbs has a lot to say about the enemy multiplying kisses but wounds from a friend can be trusted.

I'm glad you're honest with your homosexual friends. I've also expressed my beliefs and reservations about the lifestyle of my lesbian friends. What I'm not doing is imposing a standard upon them that I might not meet myself, the standard of perfection in my Christian walk with no shadow of deception. St. Paul informs us that we see in a mirror dimly, our understanding diminished. If we are deceived in one area of our lives but are otherwise trying to seek the face of God, can any of us be saved? Where is there room for grace that covers the shortfalls in our search for salvation? What if you're wrong in that the Catholic Church is the only pathway to salvation and you're outside of it? What if I'm wrong in that it's faith alone that saves and I've been trusting my works? Selene offered some profound and abbreviated advice that God will be the one to judge us and we should reserve that judgment to him.

You mentioned Mormonism with a clear inference that Mormon are on an errant path leading to eternal reprobation. I don't believe that any Mormon who is sincerely following Christ will be lost because of errors in their denomination's teaching because we embark on a dangerous path if we start divining what level of deception will make vain our hope for eternal life. Conveniently enough, it's those we perceive to be more deceived than us that are in jeopardy. This is very impious speculation, the kind of vain speech that Jesus cautioned us against. (Mt 12:36) I would wish upon Mormons the same ocean of grace I hope is accorded to me, that nobody who seeks God in sincerity of heart will be lost over misguided belief.

It's my firm and unshakable belief that grace covers a lot more than we think, that God is in passionate pursuit of every human being, that they may receive his love and live forever with him, and that mercy will have the final word.

[SIZE=medium]Deprived mind is not a birth defect. It is an acquired condition and sounds like you are well on the way of acquiring it.[/SIZE]

Your Care Bear Stare is no match for my entrenched indifference!

(and I think you meant depraved)

 

[Suhar]

Your Care Bear Stare is no match for my entrenched indifference!

(and I think you meant depraved)

[SIZE=medium]Entrenched indifference is the proof of depraved mind. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Indifference toward will of God, word of God and wrath of God, which is coming onto those with entrenched indifference. Somebody delusional enough to look for moral network for same sex unions thinks that he will be facing Care Bear?!?!?!…….[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I would not want to be you when you stand before God![/SIZE]

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

[SIZE=medium]Entrenched indifference is the proof of depraved mind. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]Indifference toward will of God, word of God and wrath of God, which is coming onto those with entrenched indifference. Somebody delusional enough to look for moral network for same sex unions thinks that he will be facing Care Bear?!?!?!…….[/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]I would not want to be you when you stand before God![/SIZE]

Not to worry, my friend. I got a great defense attorney.

 

[Suhar]

Not to worry, my friend. I got a great defense attorney.

[SIZE=medium] [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]His name must be Care Bear because God clearly condemned what you are advocating. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Good luck with that attorney of yours![/SIZE]

[SIZE=medium]It is not nice to insult somebody by calling him your friend. Christians are not allowed to be friends, to be unequally yoked with those of depraved mind. Something that you do not know.[/SIZE]

 

[FHII]

Seriously?????

 

[marksman]

So what if you lie a hundred times a day and later confess, or what if you forget to confess? What if you forgot all the lies you told?

I don't lie a hundred times a day because I am autistic and autistic people find it very hard to lie.

 

[FHII]

I don't lie a hundred times a day because I am autistic and autistic people find it very hard to lie.

It was a general question, and I work in special education, so don't think you are going to get over on me. I've dealt with plenty of autistic folks. You have your own set of sins, which you still need grace for.

And yes, I've found that autistic folks are very capable of lying.

 

[Suhar]

Seriously?????

Seriously what?

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

It was a general question, and I work in special education, so don't think you are going to get over on me. I've dealt with plenty of autistic folks. You have your own set of sins, which you still need grace for.

And yes, I've found that autistic folks are very capable of lying.

You betcha! You especially gotta be on guard for those high functioning types that pass for normal and blend in with the rest of us!

 

[iticus]

This is my first post!!!

As we sit around Vale ready to condemn him as Job was condemned, I would just like to ask, if the person in question was in a heterosexual relationship and not married, would we feel the same way about them?

Don't get me wrong, I think it important to call sin a sin. I don't think anyone here disputes homosexual acts as a sin, or at least, if they do admit to it.. The question then becomes, how do we treat the sinner?

Jesus had a tendency not to lash out at sinners EXCEPT for the religious leaders who were suppose to represent him. Therefore, the approach should be to proclaim the good news that we need not live in sin, that is, by the power of Christ and leave it at that.

I have to admit, bringing children into the equation sure complicates things. That is a whole other thread by itself.