A Question About The Restrainer

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BlackManINC

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Phoneman777 said:
You are correct. God is three persons, not one entity. Some claim this is evidence that Christianity is polytheism, but nothing is further from the truth. The three are one in mind, in unity, in purpose, yet they are three separate entities:

When the Second Person in the Godhead (Son) was being baptized in the River Jordan, the First Person in the Godhead (Father) spoke with awesome thundering from where He was in the heavens as the Third Person in the Godhead (Holy Spirit) descended from heaven as a dove down to Jesus where He stood.

Stan's idea that God is one entity, not three, is the Catholic (Jesuit) idea of the "Trinity", which is BS but I'm not surprised that he subscribes to it, seeing he embraces so many other of their ideas.
Exactly, finally, someone who gets it.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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So which "spirit of God" restrains the singular man, the ruler who will come?

Rev 4:5. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

I think we have to allow that God is more complex than we can imagine.
 

BlackManINC

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
So which "spirit of God" restrains the singular man, the ruler who will come?

Rev 4:5. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

I think we have to allow that God is more complex than we can imagine.
I agree, the Bible doesn't tell us what the seven spirits are, but since they are described as being sent into all the ends of the earth, it lends credence to the idea that they are attributes of the holy spirit (which are described in Isaiah 11:2), since the holy spirit was also sent into all the ends of the earth with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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I've been reflecting on this today.

The seven lamp stands are also seven Churches, and a companion chapter in Revelation, each has a star which is an Angel (Rev 1:20) and there are seven Angels that are said to minister before God Almighty:

1 Enoch 20:2- 8, reference is made to seven angels who stand before God and are named Uriel, Raphael, Raguel, Michael, Saraqael, Gabriel (cf. Luke 1:19), and Remiel.
- Expositor's Bible Commentary on Rev 8:2

We are to worship in the spirit and we are the spiritual Israel God desired natural Israel to be.
So there are other spirits in Heaven than the Holy Spirit here in Revelation, and I can go back to 1Kings 22 and find even more spirits, even lying spirits, who can perform God's work here on earth.

I think the important thing is that we recognize that Paul is not indicating the whole Church is taken out as the "one" because he also taught that we would not be rescued until Jesus came, and that is after the man of perdition is revealed. Secondly, I think it is important that we humbly accept that we cannot know for certainty who the one is who is doing the restraining. I favor a spiritual force and that is probable with the neutral/male gender assignment given in the Greek, but while Paul taught it, that information has not been passed down to us, and it may not be necessary for understanding the whole of the end, other than that God is in control.
 

StanJ

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BlackManINC said:
Exactly, finally, someone who gets it.
Really, you're excited that Phoneman get's it...someone who does not GET anything? Avoiding what Deut 6:4-9 says in context of what is revealed in the NT is typical of those that don't want to learn.
 

Phoneman777

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StanJ said:
Really, you're excited that Phoneman get's it...someone who does not GET anything? Avoiding what Deut 6:4-9 says in context of what is revealed in the NT is typical of those that don't want to learn.
Yes, I'm not getting some things...like an answer to the OP question from you Jesuit Futurists because your pathetic devotion to Jesuit Futurism has no answer to it.

BlackManINC said:
I agree, the Bible doesn't tell us what the seven spirits are, but since they are described as being sent into all the ends of the earth, it lends credence to the idea that they are attributes of the holy spirit (which are described in Isaiah 11:2), since the holy spirit was also sent into all the ends of the earth with the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
Paul speaks of the "falling away" apostasy that must occur before the Second Coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians, but Paul, Jesus, and John all spoke of an imminent apostasy that would take place soon after their days, and not 2,000 years later. "Antichrist" literally means "in place of Christ", which which is exactly what Catholicism claims to have done when it joined with sword of the secular state and it was also then that the greatest apostasy to ever strike the church occurred:
  • Idolatry came into the church. (1 John 5:21 KJV)
  • The Papacy claims the Pope to be "another God on Earth". (John 10:33 KJV)
  • The Papacy claims to be the sole provider of forgiveness of sin. (Luke 5:21 KJV)
  • The illegitimate priesthood of the Catholic church robbed Jesus of His rightful High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. (Daniel 8:11-14 KJV)
  • The Papacy claims "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." (Daniel 7:25 KJV)
  • The Papacy slaughtered mercilessly men, women, children, and babies ripped from the wombs of Protestant women to the tune of between 75-150 MILLION. (Daniel 7:21-25 KJV)
To claim that all this is not the apostasy that the Bible writers warns us of is to deny history in favor of Jesuit Futurist ideas.

Marcus O'Reillius said:
.
The Church is not the restrainer which can be shown logically from Paul's second letter to the Thessalonians.

2Th 2:1 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 ...that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed,

6b And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

When you account for the "unless" and "until" the sequence of events Paul lists is as follows:
  • The departure from the law - homosexuality, abortion, euthanasia, drug use, atheism, occult worship, hedonism: i.e., modern society in America.
  • The restrainer is removed from the midst.
  • The man of perdition is revealed.
  • Jesus comes on the Day of Christ (the Day of the Lord)
  • We are gathered to Him
We cannot be removed from the midst and still be around afterward for Jesus to collect us.
___________________________________

However, the restrainer is not the Roman Empire. The King of the North comes from the Roman model; it is the last Kingdom (Daniel chapter 2) having sway over Israel that is smashed by the coming of the 'rock cut out of the mountain without hands' - Jesus is the rock and without hands refers to God the Father/Holy Spirit.

Since the fourth terrible beast, which is the culmination of the Roman Empire over two thousand years, is eliminated by cutting off its head with the capture of the anti-Christ and the false prophet at the final battle of the one 'seven' at Armageddon - it also is logically eliminated from being the restrainer because it must continue onward on the earth.

In other words, the anti-Christ is not restraining himself, indeed, he comes up from within that combination of end-time nations (Rev 13:2). He commands the fourth terrible beast through the one 'seven.' And those component three nations remain after the fourth terrible beast (Dan 7:12) is decapitated for a little while after the one 'seven' (the 30/45 days of Dan 12:11-12).
___________________________________

The rise of Islam is not the anti-Christ's source.

The prince who will come comes from the people who destroy the city and the sanctuary - Daniel 9:26. That was done by the Romans.

Islam is the Kingdom of the South. It has attacked America, Russia, and Europe. It has "mixed" in with the iron of Western-style societies - Daniel 2:45. That word is 'arab in Hebrew: (hint-hint)
___________________________________

It matters little what various commentaries say; what does the Bible say? In this case, we cannot say who the restrainer is; that knowledge has been lost.
Your claim that the "King of the North" is Roman is a complete distortion of prophecy. What was the "King of the North" in Daniel's day which came and totally flattened Jerusalem??? It was not Roman, it was BABYLONIAN. (Jeremiah 4:6-7 KJV)
 

BlackManINC

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Phoneman777:
Paul speaks of the "falling away" apostasy that must occur before the Second Coming of Christ in 2 Thessalonians, but Paul, Jesus, and John all spoke of an imminent apostasy that would take place soon after their days, and not 2,000 years later. "Antichrist" literally means "in place of Christ", which which is exactly what Catholicism claims to have done when it joined with sword of the secular state and it was also then that the greatest apostasy to ever strike the church occurred:
  • Idolatry came into the church. (1 John 5:21 KJV)
  • The Papacy claims the Pope to be "another God on Earth". (John 10:33 KJV)
  • The Papacy claims to be the sole provider of forgiveness of sin. (Luke 5:21 KJV)
  • The illegitimate priesthood of the Catholic church robbed Jesus of His rightful High Priestly ministry in the heavenly sanctuary. (Daniel 8:11-14 KJV)
  • The Papacy claims "The Pope has the power to change times, to abrogate laws, and to dispense with all things, even the precepts of Christ." (Daniel 7:25 KJV)
  • The Papacy slaughtered mercilessly men, women, children, and babies ripped from the wombs of Protestant women to the tune of between 75-150 MILLION. (Daniel 7:21-25 KJV)
To claim that all this is not the apostasy that the Bible writers warns us of is to deny history in favor of Jesuit Futurist ideas.

Wow, there is so much blatantly distorted interpretations of end time’s prophecy that I don’t even know where to begin. Whenever anyone disagrees with these interpretations, you get bull sh!t accusations of being such things as a “Jesuit Futurist”, whatever the hell that’s supposed to mean. The one thing that I’ll address is your interpretation of the book of Daniel, especially chapter seven, because it makes absolutely no sense at all scripturally. Why doesn’t it make sense? Well it’s simple, because it makes no sense scripturally. You can attribute the events recorded in the book of Daniel to later historical accounts about the Papacy as much as you wish, if it doesn't line up with scripture, then it has no basis. I can easily attribute practically all of Daniel 7 almost entirely to end times prophecy in the book of Revelation that has yet to occur. It’s very easy to do, here, I’ll compare scripture from Daniel and Revelation to show you why Daniel regarded the dream King Nebuchadnezzar had as solely a latter day prophecy.


Daniel spake and said, I saw in my vision by night, and, behold, the four winds of the heaven strove upon the great sea.

3 And four great beasts came up from the sea, diverse one from another.
4 The first was like a lion, and had eagle's wings: I beheld till the wings thereof were plucked, and it was lifted up from the earth, and made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it.
5 And behold another beast, a second, like to a bear, and it raised up itself on one side, and it had three ribs in the mouth of it between the teeth of it: and they said thus unto it, Arise, devour much flesh.
6 After this I beheld, and lo another, like a leopard, which had upon the back of it four wings of a fowl; the beast had also four heads; and dominion was given to it.
7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns. - Daniel 7: 2-7


And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.

2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. - Revelation 13: 1-2


8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things. - Daniel 7: 8


And of the ten horns that were in his head, and of the other which came up, and before whom three fell; even of that horn that had eyes, and a mouth that spake very great things, whose look was more stout than his fellows.
21 I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; - Daniel 7: 20-21


23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. -Daniel 7: 23-25




And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. - Revelation 13: 5-8


I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.

10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7: 9-14


And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. - Revelation 19: 11-20
 

Marcus O'Reillius

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Phoneman777 said:
Your claim that the "King of the North" is Roman is a complete distortion of prophecy. What was the "King of the North" in Daniel's day which came and totally flattened Jerusalem??? It was not Roman, it was BABYLONIAN. (Jeremiah 4:6-7 KJV)
You are not to be trusted.

I stand by what I said. The King of the North is the ruler of the united northern half of the northern hemisphere.
 

BlackManINC

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Marcus O'Reillius said:
You are not to be trusted.

I stand by what I said. The King of the North is the ruler of the united northern half of the northern hemisphere.
His word most definitely is not to be trusted, the King of the north obviously has nothing to do with Babylon or Rome smashing Jerusalem. Jerusalem was already destroyed by the time the people of Judah was taken captive, so it makes no sense at all.
 

Phoneman777

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BlackManINC said:
His word most definitely is not to be trusted, the King of the north obviously has nothing to do with Babylon or Rome smashing Jerusalem. Jerusalem was already destroyed by the time the people of Judah was taken captive, so it makes no sense at all.
If we are to correctly understand prophetic symbolism, the Bible, not headlines, must be allowed to interpret it. In the OT, the "king of the North" - literal Babylon - attacked and overcame God's people. In prophecy, the "king of the North" is a symbolic reference to "Spiritual Babylon" , the system of the Papacy, which did the same.

This is not my idea. Many, many millions of Christians have seen both that the Papacy is the Antichrist of prophecy and the the idea of a "one man Antichrist which comes at the end of time" is a Jesuit deception designed to lead people away from the truth.

In speaking of the Papacy, the intrepid warrior for truth John Wycliffe once said over 600 years ago, "Why is it necessary in unbelief to look for another Antichrist?"

It is Jesuit Futurism, Jesuit Preterism, and any variation of these that is not to be trusted.

Marcus O'Reillius said:
You are not to be trusted.

I stand by what I said. The King of the North is the ruler of the united northern half of the northern hemisphere.
No, it is you who are not to be trusted because your interpretations are private, rather than Biblical.

In the OT, the "king of the North" which came against God's people was Babylon. If we let the "holy men of God", and not our private ideas or headlines, interpret prophecy for us (2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV), then the "king of the North" is "Spiritual Babylon" which has "Mystery, Babylon the Great, the Mother (church) of harlots" written on her forehead who was to come against God's people and do the same.
 

Guestman

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Around 31 or 32 C.E., Jesus gave several illustrations concerning the Kingdom of the heavens, as seen at Matthew 13. One of those illustrations was about Christianity being established by him, but later turning apostate or "fall way".(Greek apostasia, meaning "desertion, abandonment or rebellion") In this illustration, Jesus said that "the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left."(Matt 13:24, 25)


Jesus "sowed fine seed" in the "field" of the "world" (Matt 13:38), establishing Christianity and that went into operation on Pentecost 33 C.E. Apostate elements began to form early on, but Jesus apostles restrained them from getting a foothold. But by the end of the 1st century, all the apostles had died.


So Jesus foretold that within the one pure religion of true Christianity "weeds" or counterfeit Christians would crop up and grow among the "wheat" or genuine Christians because after the the death of the apostles (or "while men were sleeping"), "an enemy", Satan the Devil, would increase his planting them.(Matt 13:39)


At Matthew 13:26, it says that "when the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared." Even at the beginning of Christianity, some "weeds" were already appearing. Hence, while the apostles were alive, they acted as a restraint to the coming full-blown apostasy, for the apostle Paul wrote to "let no one lead you astray in any way, because it (the day of Jehovah, 2 Thess 2:2) will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."(2 Thess 2:3)


In the illustration, Jesus now says: "So the slaves of the master (Jesus Christ) of the house came and said to him, ' Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field ? How, then, does it have weeds ? He says to them, ' An enemy, a man, did this.' The slaves said to him, ' Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them ? He said, ' No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them."(Matt 13:27-29)


Thus, following the death of the apostles (the last one, John died about 100 C.E.), with nothing to restrain the apostates from planting more "weeds" or counterfeit Christians, apostasy began to flourish, such as the early "Church Father" Ignatius in about 110 C.E. suggesting a dividing between those considered as "overseers" (Greek episkopos, that became the office of "bishop") as having more authority and different from the "older men" (Greek presbyterous, later known as "priests"). He began the transition towards a hierarchical arrangement, something that Cyprian (200-258 C.E.) developed int0 a monarchical seven-grade hierarchy.


How, though, did this separation come about ? Augustus Neander, in his book The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, explains what happened: “In the second century . . . , the standing office of president of the presbyters must have been formed, to whom, inasmuch as he had especially the oversight of every thing, was the name of [e·pi´sko·pos] given, and he was thereby distinguished from the rest of the presbyters.”


The apostle Paul wrote that "now you know what is acting as a restraint (the apostles), so that he (the man of lawlessness, the clergy of Christendom) will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way".(2 Thess 2:6)


Around the beginning of the 4th century C.E., a clergy class had fully arose, and of which the Catholic church developed this from the Pope all the way down to the laity or passive body of believers.(the name "catholic", meaning "universal", should be a clue as to its content, for it is combination of pagan and so-called Christianity, or "one size fits all" or "universal" religion)


McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia: “From the time of Cyprian [who died about 258 C.E.], the father of the hierarchical system, the distinction of clergy and laity became prominent, and very soon was universally admitted. Indeed, from the third century onward, the term clerus . . . was almost exclusively applied to the ministry to distinguish it from the laity. As the Roman hierarchy was developed, the clergy came to be not merely a distinct order . . . but also to be recognised as the only priesthood.”(1891, subtitle "Clergy", pg 386)


The apostasy that Jesus said would occur, whereby the "wheat", genuine Christians, and the "weeds" of fake Christians would grow side by side, would reach an end. Jesus said in the illustration: "Let both grow together until the harvest (from 1914 onward), and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers (angels, Matt 13:39b): First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse."(Matt 13:30)


In the near future, the "weeds" or counterfeit Christians, will be gathered together along with the rest of false religion in order to be ' bound in bundles to burn them up '. This is seen at Revelation 17, in which the "ten horns" (the political governments) under the direction of the "scarlet-colored wild beast" (the United Nations), will be motivated by Jehovah God to "make her (the "prostitute" called Babylon the Great, Rev 17:1, 5) devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire."(Rev 17:16, 17)
 

Phoneman777

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Guestman said:
Around 31 or 32 C.E., Jesus gave several illustrations concerning the Kingdom of the heavens, as seen at Matthew 13. One of those illustrations was about Christianity being established by him, but later turning apostate or "fall way".(Greek apostasia, meaning "desertion, abandonment or rebellion") In this illustration, Jesus said that "the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left."(Matt 13:24, 25)

Jesus "sowed fine seed" in the "field" of the "world" (Matt 13:38), establishing Christianity and that went into operation on Pentecost 33 C.E. Apostate elements began to form early on, but Jesus apostles restrained them from getting a foothold. But by the end of the 1st century, all the apostles had died.

So Jesus foretold that within the one pure religion of true Christianity "weeds" or counterfeit Christians would crop up and grow among the "wheat" or genuine Christians because after the the death of the apostles (or "while men were sleeping"), "an enemy", Satan the Devil, would increase his planting them.(Matt 13:39)

At Matthew 13:26, it says that "when the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared." Even at the beginning of Christianity, some "weeds" were already appearing. Hence, while the apostles were alive, they acted as a restraint to the coming full-blown apostasy, for the apostle Paul wrote to "let no one lead you astray in any way, because it (the day of Jehovah, 2 Thess 2:2) will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction."(2 Thess 2:3)

In the illustration, Jesus now says: "So the slaves of the master (Jesus Christ) of the house came and said to him, ' Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field ? How, then, does it have weeds ? He says to them, ' An enemy, a man, did this.' The slaves said to him, ' Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them ? He said, ' No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them."(Matt 13:27-29)

Thus, following the death of the apostles (the last one, John died about 100 C.E.), with nothing to restrain the apostates from planting more "weeds" or counterfeit Christians, apostasy began to flourish, such as the early "Church Father" Ignatius in about 110 C.E. suggesting a dividing between those considered as "overseers" (Greek episkopos, that became the office of "bishop") as having more authority and different from the "older men" (Greek presbyterous, later known as "priests"). He began the transition towards a hierarchical arrangement, something that Cyprian (200-258 C.E.) developed int0 a monarchical seven-grade hierarchy.

How, though, did this separation come about ? Augustus Neander, in his book The History of the Christian Religion and Church, During the Three First Centuries, explains what happened: “In the second century . . . , the standing office of president of the presbyters must have been formed, to whom, inasmuch as he had especially the oversight of every thing, was the name of [e·pi´sko·pos] given, and he was thereby distinguished from the rest of the presbyters.”

The apostle Paul wrote that "now you know what is acting as a restraint (the apostles), so that he (the man of lawlessness, the clergy of Christendom) will be revealed in his own due time. True, the mystery of this lawlessness is already at work, but only until the one who is right now acting as a restraint is out of the way".(2 Thess 2:6)

Around the beginning of the 4th century C.E., a clergy class had fully arose, and of which the Catholic church developed this from the Pope all the way down to the laity or passive body of believers.(the name "catholic", meaning "universal", should be a clue as to its content, for it is combination of pagan and so-called Christianity, or "one size fits all" or "universal" religion)

McClintock and Strong’s Cyclopedia: “From the time of Cyprian [who died about 258 C.E.], the father of the hierarchical system, the distinction of clergy and laity became prominent, and very soon was universally admitted. Indeed, from the third century onward, the term clerus . . . was almost exclusively applied to the ministry to distinguish it from the laity. As the Roman hierarchy was developed, the clergy came to be not merely a distinct order . . . but also to be recognised as the only priesthood.”(1891, subtitle "Clergy", pg 386)

The apostasy that Jesus said would occur, whereby the "wheat", genuine Christians, and the "weeds" of fake Christians would grow side by side, would reach an end. Jesus said in the illustration: "Let both grow together until the harvest (from 1914 onward), and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers (angels, Matt 13:39b): First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse."(Matt 13:30)

In the near future, the "weeds" or counterfeit Christians, will be gathered together along with the rest of false religion in order to be ' bound in bundles to burn them up '. This is seen at Revelation 17, in which the "ten horns" (the political governments) under the direction of the "scarlet-colored wild beast" (the United Nations), will be motivated by Jehovah God to "make her (the "prostitute" called Babylon the Great, Rev 17:1, 5) devastated and naked, and they will eat up her flesh and completely burn her with fire."(Rev 17:16, 17)
Paul said that "after my departing (death) grievous wolves would come in" and savage the flock, and John said that the church needed to "keep yourselves from idols", so it is clear that both men expected the apostasy to take place in the distant past not too far removed from their time, not almost 2,000 years later, it seems.
 

n2thelight

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Michael is the restrainer nobody else can fit

The answer to the question of who the restrainer is lies in the Old Testament in a parallel verse to the revealing of the man of sin. Matthew 24:15-22 This event is unparalleled in all of history, so we can define it that way. What is the event in which the removal of the restrainer causes? The abomination of desolation, the revealing of the antichrist. This is the beginning of the great tribulation, “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
 

Phoneman777

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n2thelight said:
Michael is the restrainer nobody else can fit

The answer to the question of who the restrainer is lies in the Old Testament in a parallel verse to the revealing of the man of sin. Matthew 24:15-22 This event is unparalleled in all of history, so we can define it that way. What is the event in which the removal of the restrainer causes? The abomination of desolation, the revealing of the antichrist. This is the beginning of the great tribulation, “such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”
Thanks but there are other threads where the identity of the Restrainer is the focus. The point of this thread is to analyze the question of why Paul did not immortalize the identity of the Restrainer in his letter for all Christians until Jesus' return if indeed it is the Holy Spirit, Michael, or some other Agent of holiness. If the Restrainer was "Michael", then why didn't Paul openly broadcast such encouraging news of this "reigning Champion" to a struggling early church which was hated, oppressed, and persecuted on all sides?

"Though we are beaten, jailed, run off our lands, and martyred for Christ all day long, be of great courage, Thessalonians! The great restrainer MICHAEL yet has a firmly planted foot on the neck of our great enemy Antichrist and yet restrains this vile enemy of truth!!!"

Paul fearlessly declared the one true God from the highest courts of royalty to the lowest among him, though he was beaten, stoned, jailed, condemned to death, shipwrecked, and hated by his own countrymen. Care to take a shot at the question of why he clammed up and zipped his lip when writing to the Thessalonians (and to every follower of Christ thereafter), seeing that no one else has dared to?
 

Cooter

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No one here is anywhere near the truth. All of this conjecture is based on speculation and supposition. History tells us of the sequence of events preceding the Tribulation of Jerusalem in 66-70AD.

It was as follows...

!. First the restrainer had to be removed from Jerusalem. This historically happened on Nissan 8th 66AD. The Shekinah Glory of God was seen by eyewitnesses leaving the temple and going to the top of the Mount of Olives and remaining there for the duration of the war with Rome. The same Identical event happened in the time of Ezekiel just before the destruction of the city and the temple. BTW Jesus was crucified on top of the Mount of Olives. Fifty days later the Heavenly Host also departed the temple and was heard by witnesses. They left on Pentecost of 66AD. Now the restrainer had been removed.

2. Now the seething, fomenting, violence was free to start and snowball into the extreme violence and bloodshed. This was the "rebellion" that Paul was talking about. Some translations say "falling away" which is not the best translation for the context. Today this has been misconstrued as some sort of "Christian" apostasy. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHRISTIANS WHATSOEVER. Now, the war had begun when Eleazar Ben Ananus stopped the daily sacrifice for the emperor and the Roman people. The war began in Jerusalem between the Peace party and the Zealots. The peace party did their best to get the rebellion under control but to no avail. They were unable to restart the sacrifices for Rome and this was seen as an act of war.

3. Ananus Ben Ananus the father of Eleazar Ben Ananus (they were on opposite sides of the war) sent to Agrippa II for reinforcements to put down the rebellion before it became completely out of control. Agrippa II sent three thousand soldiers. They were unable to put down the rebellion and ended up surrendering to The Zealots. The peace party and the Royal troops of Agrippa were allowed to surrender. (They had taken over the Palace of Herod - which was a fortress.) The Roman cohort that had joined them (600 men) was not allowed to surrender. They retreated from the spacious Palace of Herod to the Fortress of Herod in the same area. but in time due to want of food and water they were forced to seek terms of surrender. They were allowed to surrender upon laying down their arms. When they did so - the Zealots slaughtered them all but the commander. The city was still in control of the Zealots.

4. The violence spread all over the area, Judea, Galilee, Samaria, parts of Syria and as far away as Alexandria where 50,000 Jews were slaughtered. All over this area except for about 3 or 4 cities the Jews were being slaughtered.by the thousands. At this point in time the governor of Syria Cestius Gallus, who had been trying to ignore the situation, was forced to take action. To make this story short he came to Jerusalem with an army of an estimated 30 to 40 thousand men to put down the rebellion. He attacked the Zealots who holed up in the temple which was in itself a fortress. This was the very situation that Jesus had warned His followers about. The armies of Cestius was surrounding the city and the Abomination of Desolation was in the Temple. This was the bloody Zealot terrorists who were murderers and thieves and their being there physically was an Abomination. Josephus says that at one point there were 8,500 dead bodies in the Temple complex. One dead body would require a cleansing let alone over 8,000.This was a desecration far worse that Antiochus did in the second century BC.

5. Jesus told His followers that when they saw armies surrounding Jerusalem that they should flee in extreme haste. Why was his warning so urgent? This has to be interpreted you know you just can't skip over it and ignore it. Also this doesn't make any sense - until you find out what actually happened. I would have thought that Jesus would rather have said -when you see armies approaching Jerusalem then flee post haste. But he didn't. He rather said when you see the city surrounded then flee. How would you do that? But what happened was that after a few days Cestius decided to retreat back to Caesarea where he had come from. On Cheshvan 4th 66AD he was planning to burn down the North door of the temple the following day. But the next day he had decided to retreat instead. So his flight began on the 5th.

The Zealots in great numbers followed Cestius's army out of the city attacking them along the way. There was a major slaughter on Cheshvan 8th when they had killed approximately 5,800 of Cestius's army. He tricked them by leaving part of his army behind at night (suicide mission) and drove his remaining men on a forced march night and day to escape. The Zealots abandoned their pursuit of Cestius because he had a great head start on them and they were getting further away from their power center and returned to the battle zone and plundered the Romans who were dead. They took money, weapons, and anything that was of use and value to them. I'm estimating that the Zealots were gone out of the city for about 7-8 days - the record does not say when they returned. This was the window of opportunity that Jesus had told them about and why his warning was so urgent. They only had 8 days to escape. The reason for this is that the zealots were killing anyone who tried to leave the city. They thought of them as traitors who would go over to the Romans. So the Christians could only escape while the terrorists were occupied out of town while pursuing Cestius. For about 8 days there were no Zealots inside the city to kill them and there were no Roman soldiers on the outside to impede their escape.

Revelation chapter 12 is a symbolic history of the Church. It begins with the birth of Jesus and ends with the flight of the Christians to Pella. The 3 ½ years was the duration of the tribulation of Jerusalem. That was the last major historical event up to the time of John when he was writing the book of Revelation. The end of chapter 12 also suggests that the Zealots pursued the Christians for a time after they returned from their victory over Cestius but something happened to make them desist. Perhaps God once again parted the Jordan river at flood time for his people to pass over just like he did in Joshua's time.

6. On Cheshvan 4th the words of Jesus and Daniel were realized. The City was surrounded by armies and the Terrorists (AoD) had taken over the temple. It was on this very day that the time clock of Daniel began to tick. If you count the days from Cheshvan 4th 66AD until the daily sacrifice failed on Tammuz 17th 70AD it is exactly 1,290 days. Daniel also says that if they survive to 1,335 days you would be blessed. Daniel is saying that the war would be over in another 45 days past the failure of the daily sacrifice. Josephus does not give a specific day for the wars end but I use Daniels 45 days. This comes out to Elul 3rd 70AD.

And so you see history fits very well with the prophetic word there is no need to speculate on much of anything. At least the major elements of prophesy. It's all behind us.
 

Phoneman777

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This thread is entitled, "A Question about the Restrainer", not "Who Do You Think Is The Restrainer?". Please answer the question, seeing that in 76 posts, no one has bothered to offer one.

Cooter said:
No one here is anywhere near the truth. All of this conjecture is based on speculation and supposition. History tells us of the sequence of events preceding the Tribulation of Jerusalem in 66-70AD.

It was as follows...

!. First the restrainer had to be removed from Jerusalem. This historically happened on Nissan 8th 66AD. The Shekinah Glory of God was seen by eyewitnesses leaving the temple and going to the top of the Mount of Olives and remaining there for the duration of the war with Rome. The same Identical event happened in the time of Ezekiel just before the destruction of the city and the temple. BTW Jesus was crucified on top of the Mount of Olives. Fifty days later the Heavenly Host also departed the temple and was heard by witnesses. They left on Pentecost of 66AD. Now the restrainer had been removed.

2. Now the seething, fomenting, violence was free to start and snowball into the extreme violence and bloodshed. This was the "rebellion" that Paul was talking about. Some translations say "falling away" which is not the best translation for the context. Today this has been misconstrued as some sort of "Christian" apostasy. IT HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CHRISTIANS WHATSOEVER. Now, the war had begun when Eleazar Ben Ananus stopped the daily sacrifice for the emperor and the Roman people. The war began in Jerusalem between the Peace party and the Zealots. The peace party did their best to get the rebellion under control but to no avail. They were unable to restart the sacrifices for Rome and this was seen as an act of war.

3. Ananus Ben Ananus the father of Eleazar Ben Ananus (they were on opposite sides of the war) sent to Agrippa II for reinforcements to put down the rebellion before it became completely out of control. Agrippa II sent three thousand soldiers. They were unable to put down the rebellion and ended up surrendering to The Zealots. The peace party and the Royal troops of Agrippa were allowed to surrender. (They had taken over the Palace of Herod - which was a fortress.) The Roman cohort that had joined them (600 men) was not allowed to surrender. They retreated from the spacious Palace of Herod to the Fortress of Herod in the same area. but in time due to want of food and water they were forced to seek terms of surrender. They were allowed to surrender upon laying down their arms. When they did so - the Zealots slaughtered them all but the commander. The city was still in control of the Zealots.

4. The violence spread all over the area, Judea, Galilee, Samaria, parts of Syria and as far away as Alexandria where 50,000 Jews were slaughtered. All over this area except for about 3 or 4 cities the Jews were being slaughtered.by the thousands. At this point in time the governor of Syria Cestius Gallus, who had been trying to ignore the situation, was forced to take action. To make this story short he came to Jerusalem with an army of an estimated 30 to 40 thousand men to put down the rebellion. He attacked the Zealots who holed up in the temple which was in itself a fortress. This was the very situation that Jesus had warned His followers about. The armies of Cestius was surrounding the city and the Abomination of Desolation was in the Temple. This was the bloody Zealot terrorists who were murderers and thieves and their being there physically was an Abomination. Josephus says that at one point there were 8,500 dead bodies in the Temple complex. One dead body would require a cleansing let alone over 8,000.This was a desecration far worse that Antiochus did in the second century BC.

5. Jesus told His followers that when they saw armies surrounding Jerusalem that they should flee in extreme haste. Why was his warning so urgent? This has to be interpreted you know you just can't skip over it and ignore it. Also this doesn't make any sense - until you find out what actually happened. I would have thought that Jesus would rather have said -when you see armies approaching Jerusalem then flee post haste. But he didn't. He rather said when you see the city surrounded then flee. How would you do that? But what happened was that after a few days Cestius decided to retreat back to Caesarea where he had come from. On Cheshvan 4th 66AD he was planning to burn down the North door of the temple the following day. But the next day he had decided to retreat instead. So his flight began on the 5th.

The Zealots in great numbers followed Cestius's army out of the city attacking them along the way. There was a major slaughter on Cheshvan 8th when they had killed approximately 5,800 of Cestius's army. He tricked them by leaving part of his army behind at night (suicide mission) and drove his remaining men on a forced march night and day to escape. The Zealots abandoned their pursuit of Cestius because he had a great head start on them and they were getting further away from their power center and returned to the battle zone and plundered the Romans who were dead. They took money, weapons, and anything that was of use and value to them. I'm estimating that the Zealots were gone out of the city for about 7-8 days - the record does not say when they returned. This was the window of opportunity that Jesus had told them about and why his warning was so urgent. They only had 8 days to escape. The reason for this is that the zealots were killing anyone who tried to leave the city. They thought of them as traitors who would go over to the Romans. So the Christians could only escape while the terrorists were occupied out of town while pursuing Cestius. For about 8 days there were no Zealots inside the city to kill them and there were no Roman soldiers on the outside to impede their escape.

Revelation chapter 12 is a symbolic history of the Church. It begins with the birth of Jesus and ends with the flight of the Christians to Pella. The 3 ½ years was the duration of the tribulation of Jerusalem. That was the last major historical event up to the time of John when he was writing the book of Revelation. The end of chapter 12 also suggests that the Zealots pursued the Christians for a time after they returned from their victory over Cestius but something happened to make them desist. Perhaps God once again parted the Jordan river at flood time for his people to pass over just like he did in Joshua's time.

6. On Cheshvan 4th the words of Jesus and Daniel were realized. The City was surrounded by armies and the Terrorists (AoD) had taken over the temple. It was on this very day that the time clock of Daniel began to tick. If you count the days from Cheshvan 4th 66AD until the daily sacrifice failed on Tammuz 17th 70AD it is exactly 1,290 days. Daniel also says that if they survive to 1,335 days you would be blessed. Daniel is saying that the war would be over in another 45 days past the failure of the daily sacrifice. Josephus does not give a specific day for the wars end but I use Daniels 45 days. This comes out to Elul 3rd 70AD.

And so you see history fits very well with the prophetic word there is no need to speculate on much of anything. At least the major elements of prophesy. It's all behind us.

StanJ said:
I figured sooner or later we would get a post like #75, and I won't bother to address all the points but to just post this link to show that it is the heretical view of Preterism and does NOT hold water.

http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/fp_main.html
This thread is entitled, "A Question About The Restrainer", not "Who Do You Think Is The Restrainer?". Please answer the question, seeing that after 76 posts no one has accepted the challenge.
 

Cooter

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StanJ said:
I figured sooner or later we would get a post like #75, and I won't bother to address all the points but to just post this link to show that it is the heretical view of Preterism and does NOT hold water.

http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/fp_main.html
I understand why you cannot address any of the points - because you have no answers no alternative. Tell us why Jesus' warning to his followers was so terribly urgent? Or has this too been exported to the future? Typical Futurist defense - Denial with no scriptural backing whatsoever. Everything I said was historical fact by mostly eyewitnesses. The words of Jesus, Paul, and Daniel were all put together logically and every word can be accounted for. Futurists cannot and never will go through scripture word for word line for line and give a coherent, historically accurate, and common sense interpretation. Instead they back up their belief system with "Proof texts" which are hardly ever consistent with the context from which they were "cherry picked" from.

Case in point: the "Antichrist" - there is no such individual mentioned in scripture. And yet Futurists insist on his (Future) existence. Futurists will never bother to study the complete books of John 1 and 2. Nor are they able or willing to go through the text word for word and line for line because there is NOTHING there to support their sensational and exciting belief system. Lets see you do it! You will not because it is not possible without disproving your standard adopted belief system. John defines the "antichrist" (translated small "a" because it is not a proper noun - it is not a single entity) as those who were once a part of the church (thrown out or having left) who were teaching that Jesus did not come in the flesh and then died for all of humanity. This is the major tenant of Christianity - without this Christianity would not exist.) He calls them liars and deceivers - and they were plural and not singular.These were the Gnostics of the first century and John who was a custodian of the truth of the Gospel according to Jesus was telling his followers to beware of their false doctrines. Nowhere does it say that this "antichrist" is a single person, and nowhere does it say that it is some boogeyman outside of the Christian faith. Nor does it say that this one lone boogeyman will not be manifest until some distant future. There is no entity in the 21st century or beyond that is scripturally defined as "Antichrist."

I am not a Preterist - I am always accused of being one because I recognize that the majority of prophesy has been fulfilled historically. You cannot show me on the web or anywhere else where my post is "Preterist." All of my writing comes out of endless hours of personal Bible study and not out of somebody's video, book. or internet source.
 

Phoneman777

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Cooter said:
I understand why you cannot address any of the points - because you have no answers no alternative. Tell us why Jesus' warning to his followers was so terribly urgent? Or has this too been exported to the future? Typical Futurist defense - Denial with no scriptural backing whatsoever. Everything I said was historical fact by mostly eyewitnesses. The words of Jesus, Paul, and Daniel were all put together logically and every word can be accounted for. Futurists cannot and never will go through scripture word for word line for line and give a coherent, historically accurate, and common sense interpretation. Instead they back up their belief system with "Proof texts" which are hardly ever consistent with the context from which they were "cherry picked" from.

Case in point: the "Antichrist" - there is no such individual mentioned in scripture. And yet Futurists insist on his (Future) existence. Futurists will never bother to study the complete books of John 1 and 2. Nor are they able or willing to go through the text word for word and line for line because there is NOTHING there to support their sensational and exciting belief system. Lets see you do it! You will not because it is not possible without disproving your standard adopted belief system. John defines the "antichrist" (translated small "a" because it is not a proper noun - it is not a single entity) as those who were once a part of the church (thrown out or having left) who were teaching that Jesus did not come in the flesh and then died for all of humanity. This is the major tenant of Christianity - without this Christianity would not exist.) He calls them liars and deceivers - and they were plural and not singular.These were the Gnostics of the first century and John who was a custodian of the truth of the Gospel according to Jesus was telling his followers to beware of their false doctrines. Nowhere does it say that this "antichrist" is a single person, and nowhere does it say that it is some boogeyman outside of the Christian faith. Nor does it say that this one lone boogeyman will not be manifest until some distant future. There is no entity in the 21st century or beyond that is scripturally defined as "Antichrist."

I am not a Preterist - I am always accused of being one because I recognize that the majority of prophesy has been fulfilled historically. You cannot show me on the web or anywhere else where my post is "Preterist." All of my writing comes out of endless hours of personal Bible study and not out of somebody's video, book. or internet source.
Speaking of points not being addressed, the point of this thread is the question of why Paul kept silent about the identity of the Restrainer. What reason could there be for Paul to so uncharacteristcally withhold from us glorious tidings of an "Agent of holiness" Restrainer? Any thoughts?
 

Cooter

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Phoneman777 said:
Speaking of points not being addressed, the point of this thread is the question of why Paul kept silent about the identity of the Restrainer. What reason could there be for Paul to so uncharacteristcally withhold from us glorious tidings of an "Agent of holiness" Restrainer? Any thoughts?
I can't speak for Paul, but the main question that he was intent upon to answer was the false belief that Jesus had already returned a second time. This was his focus - not who the restrainer was. He simply listed a couple of events that had to take place BEFORE Jesus returns. (the war with Rome) Note that he did not identify who would start the "rebellion" either, and we know from history that it was Eleazar Ben Ananus. Nor did he mention who the "Man of Sin" was.

The first item was the restrainer being taken away, which I gave you the actual dates of, after this the "rebellion" (war) was then free to take place, and then the "Man of Sin" was to be revealed. The Man of sin historically was Eleazar Ben Simon - a radical zealot. He was in control of the Temple for three years - up to Passover of 70AD when Titus arrived with 80,000 men and set up the siege. The siege of Jerusalem lasted just 136 days using the numbers given by Daniel. Josephus often remarks in his account about how these terrorists polluted and desecrated the temple during their occupation. The Old and New Covenants actually overlapped by exactly 40 years to the very day - Just like in Ezekiel's day. That is - God gave Israel 40 years to repent/accept the Gospel and those who did not would be punished in the tribulation that came from 66 to 70AD. This 40 year period was from Passover of Jesus' crucifixion to Passover of 70AD right to the day. 2 Thess was written in 52AD and just 14 years later it came to pass. The Old Covenant was decommissioned forever when the Shekinah Glory left the temple and the Mount of Olives. The New Covenant was commissioned on Pentecost of 30AD. Hebrews chapter 8 tells us that the Old Covenant was about to pass away. The heavenly Host abandoned the Temple on Pentecost of 66AD. Hebrews was written in late 64 or early 65 so this prophesy came to pass just 6 years after the book was written.