Jesus already came, but you did not see him - explained Daniel 7

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Clown

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The prophecy (Matthew 24, Mark 13) begins with the destruction of temple:
Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.

Jesus tells, that many false messiahs will come in this age (Simon Magus, Theudas and more...).
For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.

Next there will be many conflicts: Uprising of brothers Jacob and Simon, Jewish-Roman war, Samaritan conflicts and many smaller revolts.
You will hear of wars and rumors of wars.

Jesus's followers and apostles (John, Peter, James...) were persecuted.
Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death.

Destruction of Judea by Vespasian and his legion.
So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation.

Christians under the leadership of Simon, Jesus's brother left Jerusalem to area around Pella (Decapolis), but this Simon was not the same (Simon, church leader) that was later crucified.
Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Many curious astronomical signs were documented just before the destruction of Jerusalem by Josephus and Tacitus, including heavenly army with Jesus covered in clouds.
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

Jesus came for his only believers .
And they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left.


All these things already happened, within the generation Jesus lived in.
Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

It is supported by Matthew 16:28 (Mark 9:1), it tells that some of the followers will not die until Son of Man comes.
Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.


Daniel 7 supports this:
The four great beasts are four kings that will rise from the earth.
First Beast with human heart was Babylon. Second Beast was Achaemenid empire. Third Beast was divided empire of Alexander with 4 heads (Seleucids, Ptolemy, Macedon and kingdom in Anatolia). The last Beast was Rome.

The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom.
Horns are emperors of the Roman Empire. The tenth emperor was Emperor Vespasian.

As I watched, this horn was waging war against the holy people and defeating them - it was Jewish-Roman war in 66-73 AD.

There before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them..., After them another king will arise, different from the earlier ones; he will subdue three kings
- this little horn would mean his son, emperor Titus who destroyed Jerusalem in that war (he was not emperor at that time). He defeated 3 tyrannical rulers, who were fighting over control of Jerusalem (Eleazar ben Simon, Simon bar Giora, John of Gischala).

But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.
Vespasian and Titus are mysteriously dying 2 years apart each other. Then mount Vesuvius explodes in year 79: A river of fire was flowing, coming out from before him.

Remember Nebuchadnezzar prophecy in Daniel 2?
Gold empire was Babylon, Silver empire was Achaemenid empire, Bronze empire was Alexander's empire and Iron empire was Rome. God's kingdom will be like rock that destroys these other kingdoms and will stand forever.

After all, God's kingdom is not just in the future, but it is already.
But about the resurrection of the dead - have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living. (Matthew 22:31-32).

- Clown
 
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grafted branch

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After all, God's kingdom is not just in the future, but it is already.
But about the resurrection of the dead - have you not read what God said to you, I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living. (Matthew 22:31-32).
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I don’t judge others but those who think the kingdom has not yet been realized and is still only to take place in the future are in need of our prayers.

Welcome to the forum, it’s nice to see someone else who holds the preterist view.
 

ewq1938

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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I don’t judge others but those who think the kingdom has not yet been realized and is still only to take place in the future are in need of our prayers.

That's still a form of judging others. They are correct and don't need any look-down-on-them prayers. The kingdom here is currently spiritual, not literal. It's inside of believers but not in the world ruling all governments and people yet. That's future. The way heaven is ruled will be how the Earth will be ruled and that clearly hasn't happened yet.

Never pray down to people you believe are wrong. It's just a form of insult using prayer as the medium which is terrible behavior.
 

covenantee

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The ten horns are ten kings who will come from this kingdom.
Who were the ten horns?


Daniel 7
8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

The little horn plucked up three horns.

If the little horn is Titus, what three horns did he pluck up?
 
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Douggg

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Many curious astronomical signs were documented just before the destruction of Jerusalem by Josephus and Tacitus, including heavenly army with Jesus covered in clouds.
Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.
The sign of the Son of Man is still future. To be right before Jesus's return down to earth. It is the sixth seal event in Revelation 6:12-17.


The sign of the son of man in heaven.jpg
 

ewq1938

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The sign of the Son of Man is still future. To be right before Jesus's return down to earth. It is the sixth seal event in Revelation 6:12-17.

The 6th seal actually gives a preview of what happens during the 7th trump which is the time of the second coming.
 

Douggg

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The 6th seal actually gives a preview of what happens during the 7th trump which is the time of the second coming.
I suggest start a new thread to discuss that matter.
 

grafted branch

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That's still a form of judging others. They are correct and don't need any look-down-on-them prayers.
You are making a judgment call yourself in this statement. Not only that, but you are assuming my prayers are formed in a way that looks down on others.

My prayers go something like this … Lord in this debate I’m having, you know what’s right. May you give us the ability to see and understand where the truth is that we need to come to.

There are some people who emphatically state they are not currently in the kingdom of God in any way shape or form but will be in the future. To me, these people are making a statement that contradicts the acknowledgment of salvation itself. I pray for these people because I too didn’t know salvation in the past. Actually I pray for everyone I have a conversation with on the forum, and like it or not I have said a prayer about this post I’m making right now and the conversation we are having.
 
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Timtofly

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If the little horn is Titus, what three horns did he pluck up?
Not Titus. His Father took over when 3 horns were plucked off in one year.

Don't you accept that God placed the Ceasars of Rome, and took them away like Paul wrote? Romans 13:1-3

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

Vespasian was the 10th Ceasar.
 

covenantee

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Not Titus. His Father took over when 3 horns were plucked off in one year.

Don't you accept that God placed the Ceasars of Rome, and took them away like Paul wrote? Romans 13:1-3

"Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil."

Vespasian was the 10th Ceasar.
Daniel 7:7,8,20

Ten horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the fourth beast/kingdom of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553.

These horns/beasts/kings/kingdoms were subsequently recognized as the early prophetic precedents and fulfillments leading to the eventual Protestant Reformation.
 
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Windmill Charge

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"Jesus already came, but you did not see him"
Jesus came for his only believers .
And they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Acts1
10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

I'm bemused, if Jesus has already returned for " his only believers ", what are you and what are all those like myself who say they are believers in Jesus?

Also how was it possible for Jesus to return and that every eye did not see him?

I think you are sadly mistaken in your believes.
May I suggest that you seek out Christians for counselling.
 
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Timtofly

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John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

I don’t judge others but those who think the kingdom has not yet been realized and is still only to take place in the future are in need of our prayers.

Welcome to the forum, it’s nice to see someone else who holds the preterist view.
The point is not about the future. The point is being narrow minded about the past. The kingdom of heaven was set up and available since the Babylonian captivity. It will never go away until creation is no more.

The kingdom of heaven will still be in heaven, and unnecessary on the earth after the Second Coming. The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God. This kingdom is not the kingdom of Jesus over the kingdoms of the earth. That is an earthly kingdom, and not the heavenly kingdom of God.

People who are born again of the second birth do not stay on the earth. They move on from the earth into that heavenly kingdom, and they serve God day and night in the heavenly Temple. That has already been an ongoing phenomenon since Resurrection Sunday. They are not ever coming back to the earth during this current creation.

That should be obvious as we cannot see that kingdom on earth, because it only resides in heaven. That did not change in the first century at any point.

The preterist view denies that the kingdom of God, the kingdom of heaven is still where it has always been, in heaven. They claim all is in the past and that all there is to life is just birth and death, as the kingdom of heaven was accomplished and fulfilled in 70AD.

The Second Coming is Jesus returning to earth with the intention of never leaving until this creation is over. That has not happened, as Jesus is currently not on the earth, nor has been on the earth, since 70AD.

Jesus is not bringing the kingdom of heaven, the kingdom of God to the earth. Jesus is going to remove the punishment handed to Adam and sin and death will be removed from creation. That is what the Second Coming is for. Not to force people to change, but remove the need to have change from conception. No one will be born with Adam's death sentence upon them.


The kingdom of heaven has been going strong so those made alive could keep enjoying all creation has to offer, but that is currently life in Paradise. Since Adam was to fill up Paradise with all of his descendants, that is what Jesus accomplished through the means of the second birth, by His death, burial, and resurrection. Many of those born on the earth, now fill Paradise in Christ, as being in Adam only produced death, and sheol.

That does not mean the resurrection was in the past according to Preterist's teaching. That means humans are constantly being made alive, and constantly entering the kingdom of God non stop for over 1994 years. And they are physically enjoying that heavenly kingdom of God.
 

grafted branch

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The kingdom of heaven is the kingdom of God. This kingdom is not the kingdom of Jesus over the kingdoms of the earth. That is an earthly kingdom, and not the heavenly kingdom of God.
Ok, so are you saying none of verses that refer to the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God are referring to the millennial kingdom?
 

Timtofly

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Daniel 7:7,8,20

Ten horns (kingdoms) which arose out of the fourth beast/kingdom of the Roman empire, and their first or early kings:

Heruli - Anthyrius I
Suevi - Hermeric
Burgundians - Gjúki
Huns - Attila
Ostrogoths - Theodoric
Visigoths - Alaric I
Vandals - Genseric
Lombards - Lethuc
Franks - Ascaric
Anglo-Saxons - Alfred the Great

Little horn (kingdom) and king: The Roman papacy, governed by pope Gelasius I when the first of the three kings in Daniel 7:8,20,24, Odoacer of the Heruli, was overthrown in 493.

The three kings overthrown ("subdued"): Odoacer of the Heruli in 493, Gelimer of the Vandals in 534, Teia of the Ostrogoths in 553.

These horns/beasts/kings/kingdoms were subsequently recognized as the early prophetic precedents and fulfillments leading to the eventual Protestant Reformation.
That is your erroneous imagination, along with many early church fathers.

Horns are not kingdoms. Horns are human individuals.

Try to interpret Scripture correctly for a change.

Daniel 7:

"And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise."

Daniel 8:

"The great horn that is between his eyes is the first king."

Revelation 17:

"And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet;"

Now a horn, an individual king, can form a kingdom, which represents that king as a horn, but the kingdom is an individual first, not that the horn is a kingdom and then individual kings.

Daniel 8:

"Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power. And in the latter time of their kingdom."

This is not saying the horns were kingdoms, but the 4 horns started 4 different kingdoms, and each kingdom had several kings.

The ten horns in Daniel 7 did not start ten different kingdoms. These 10 horns represent the Ceasars of the first century, when Jesus came as the Messiah, to establish the NT church.

Now the papacy is mentioned in Daniel 2 as part of the 5th kingdom after Rome was over as the 4th kingdom. The 5th kingdom is the iron and clay feet and the ten toes are your ten kingdoms. But the ten toes are not the ten horns in Daniel 7. In Daniel 7, the ten horns are individual kings of the 4th kingdom. In Daniel 2, the ten toes are your ten kingdoms making up the 5th kingdom from the 5th century to the 15th century, and the image of Daniel 2 was destroyed with the Reformation. The 6th kingdom has been in a mortal state for the last 500 years.

Jesus is the 7th Kingdom per the sounding of the 7th Trumpet in Revelation 11.


Satan may be the 8th kingdom since Nebuchadnezzar was the head of gold. Satan has had a part in all the 6 other earthly kingdoms. One beast per the dragon in Revelation 12, the sea beast in Revelation 13, and the scarlet colored beast in Revelation 17. The same historical government including the 5 kingdoms in Daniel 2. 5 have been fallen since the Reformation.

Your ten kingdoms belong in the 5th kingdom as part of the papacy, false church. The ten horns in Daniel 7 are the Ceasars of the 4th kingdom, Rome, just as the 4 horns in Daniel 8 were the 4 kingdoms that made up the 3rd kingdom of Greece, by 4 different Greek generals who took over after Alexander died. The four horns, the generals, started 4 individual kingdoms each having multiple kings for several hundred years.

Your ten toes were only announced in Daniel 2. Daniel never wrote about 10 horns who made up those ten toes, that became 10 different kingdoms. He may have had dreams concerning those 10 toes, but those dreams were never divulged, nor explained by the angel.

Daniel 7 was about Rome, and the 4th kingdom only. Then Daniel went back and dreamt about the third kingdom in the next chapter. Then chapter 9 was about Jesus. Chapters 10 through 12 are too vague to say which point of history was being covered. Nor did an angel ever explain in explicit detail who was who, but Daniel was told to seal up the prophecy at that point. Daniel 11 is either only about the third kingdom Greece, or a view of history all the way past the Second Coming, but you cannot say it includes the papacy and Reformation, any more than some claim a future AC, which you seem to reject. The angel covers history after Daniel's time, and all the way to the GWT Judgment. But no time frame was given other than 3500 years, but most reject that as well.

Many want to say Daniel 2 only covers 4 kingdoms and not 5. Rome was a kingdom before Daniel was alive, and still part of human government 2000 years later. But that is not the point of Daniel. In Scripture the 4th kingdom was the two legs, and the 5th kingdom was the two feet and ten toes. The kingdoms changed and was defined by the makeup of the metal content.

1. Gold.
2. Silver.
3. Bronze.
4. Iron.
5. Iron / clay.

Yes Rome existed during the history of the other 4 defined kingdoms. But Daniel speaks of Rome as only a certain period of this nation's existence. Technically the eastern half was the Roman continuation with the capital in Constantinople, modern day Istanbul, Turkey. The western half was made up of those ten toes, the 5th kingdom, centered in Rome, the city.

I am not sure why posters confuse the 4th and 5th kingdoms as a single kingdom. That is not even historically correct because while the church at Rome stayed there, Constantine moved the capital of the Roman Empire. That is probably the only reason why the papacy is of the 5th kingdom, and not the 4th. The 4th kingdom ended, because a 5th kingdom took over, while the Roman Empire absorbed back into Greek eastern orthodox, instead of the Latin church of the 5th kingdom. Unless you are going to deny what Constantine did, and change history, the 4th kingdom is not the legs and feet both. The 5th kingdom happened because it became the ten different nations. The mixture of iron and clay, proved it was no longer the 4th kingdom of only iron.
 

Timtofly

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Ok, so are you saying none of verses that refer to the kingdom of heaven/kingdom of God are referring to the millennial kingdom?
Correct. They refer to what God had already established when Daniel was alive, not some future kingdom a thousand+ years later.

Some have stated Revelation 20 ended when Jesus came the first time.

Even Jesus in His parables explained that the heavenly kingdom had been around a long time before His then current earthly ministry.

Paul expressed that any earthly kingdom would not happen until the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. That fulness was for the heavenly kingdom of God, not an earthly kingdom at the Second Coming of Jesus.

No one was living for a future kingdom and rewards on earth, but the kingdom that was already established in heaven.

Now Jesus did occasionally state His own kingdom would be on the earth, because that was an OT prophecy, that has yet to be fulfilled. But those that inherit the earth would be those alive at the time of His Second Coming. That should be obvious after 2,000 years. All those alive in the first century are either dead in the grave, or already translated out of death into that heavenly kingdom of God.

It is not carnal to expect an earthly kingdom. Because that future kingdom will be made perfect in Christ, not a continuation of Adam's dead corruptible flesh.


Why would the heavenly kingdom be necessary now, if there was no sin and death in existence?

It would seem that God allowed equal time for the Gentiles to figure out their relationship with God after the Cross, compared to time given to Jacob who was renamed Israel and his descendants, prior to the Cross.

It was during the Babylonian captivity, that God established the heavenly kingdom for both Israel and the Gentiles.

But the earth post the Second Coming will be as drastic a change as when Adam disobeyed God, and plunged creation into sin and death. Because creation will be changed back to the way it was before Adam disobeyed. That is why Jesus is King on the earth over all the nations of the world, for a thousand years per Revelation 20.

That is why the promised return never happened in 70AD.
 

covenantee

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That is your erroneous imagination, along with many early church fathers.

Horns are not kingdoms. Horns are human individuals.

Try to interpret Scripture correctly for a change.
And dispensational hallucinations are not horns or kingdoms or human individuals or anything recognizable.

I won't tell you to try to interpret Scripture correctly, as that would be an utter impossibility.

The verified fulfilled historical prophetic information that I've presented is for those capable of understanding it.

Leave it for them. :laughing:
 
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grafted branch

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People who are born again of the second birth do not stay on the earth. They move on from the earth into that heavenly kingdom, and they serve God day and night in the heavenly Temple. That has already been an ongoing phenomenon since Resurrection Sunday. They are not ever coming back to the earth during this current creation.
In Matthew 13:24-30 is the parable of the weeds, which is speaking of the kingdom of heaven. In Matthew 13:36-43 Jesus explains the parable.

Matthew 13:41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

You said “People who are born again of the second birth do not stay on the earth. They move on from the earth into that heavenly kingdom”. Why are there people which do iniquity in the kingdom in the first place, prior to the angels gathering them out?
 

ewq1938

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There are some people who emphatically state they are not currently in the kingdom of God in any way shape or form but will be in the future.

Wrong. Everyone agrees the kingdom is in believers in a spiritual way. The kingdom is not here in a literal way because when it comes, Jesus will be the ruler of the world not satan through his many proxies.
 

grafted branch

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Wrong. Everyone agrees the kingdom is in believers in a spiritual way. The kingdom is not here in a literal way because when it comes, Jesus will be the ruler of the world not satan through his many proxies.
Ok, so there’s nobody on the entire planet that believes we are not in the kingdom in a spiritual way?

Why then would some people try to interpret verses such as Luke 17:21, which says the kingdom of God is within you, as the kingdom of God is in the midst of you? And why would people argue that we can only enter the kingdom after mortal is changed into immortal at the second coming?

Try doing a search for if we have entered the kingdom or not and you will see there are people who deny the kingdom is in believers.
 

Timtofly

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And dispensational hallucinations are not horns or kingdoms or human individuals or anything recognizable.

I won't tell you to try to interpret Scripture correctly, as that would be an utter impossibility.

The verified fulfilled historical prophetic information that I've presented is for those capable of understanding it.

Leave it for them. :laughing:
Ok. The blind can keep leading the blind in that ditch of yours.