A Question for Jehovah's Witnesses

[The Learner]

A Fair View of Fred Franz' Translation Abilities (page 5)

i thought these comments on channel c were fair views of fred franz' translation, not to mention a little surprising. a breath of fresh air. http://www.channelc.org/cgi-bin/eboard30/index2.cgi?frames=no&board=main&mode=current&message=21782.

www.jehovahs-witness.com

Index of Scholars​ William Barclay BDAG Hans-Jürgen Becker Jason BeDuhn Steven T. Byington Vivian Capel Lant Carpenter William D. Chamberlain E.C. Colwell Frederick Danker C.H. Dodd MacLean Gilmour Edgar J. Goodspeed Johannes Greber S.G. Green Ernst Haenchen Phillip B. Harner Murray J. Harris Robert Harvey (Strachen) Herman Heinfetter George Horner (Coptic New Testament) C. Houtman George Howard A.N. Jannaris Felix Just Benjamin Kedar Thomas O. Lambdin William Loader Jon Madsen​ Julius R. Mantey Eilat Mazar Robert M. McCoy John L. McKenzie James Moffatt C.F.D. Moule Archbishop Newcome Andrews Norton AM Perry JD Phillips Charles Francis Potter Joseph Priestley A.T. Robertson Johannes Schneider Siegfried Schulz William Carey Taylor Vincent Taylor Rijkel ten Kate John Thompson Alexander Thomson C.C. Torrey W.E. Vine J. W. Wenham Paul Wernle B.F. Westcott Allen Wikgren Benjamin Wilson Thomas Winter Robert Young​

Scholar​

Quotation Used in Support of NWT​

What the Scholar Really Said​

 

[The Learner]

Nobody with any knowledge says the Father and Jesus are the same person.
Jesus deity
Father deity
Both deity
Both one.
One God.
Always has been one God.
Always Has been more than one person.
Impossible to miss.
But you did.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

 

[The Learner]

Good morning, care you provide any evidence for your claims? Thanks.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

 

[The Learner]

The early church struggled over the God head.

Heaven won the debate.
We now have the bible.
The one you refute

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

“O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever” (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water” (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever” (n. 7; PG 5.988).
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.’ Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

“The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,’ and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . ‘” (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

“If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father” (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

“For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

“Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . ” (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion​

If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

 

[The Learner]

I see you are providing your opinion, but not seeing any scripture. I ask because I have already read the Bible and can't find what you're saying. Thanks.

https://www.calvarychapelboston.com/Biblical%20Basis%20Trinity%20Bowman.pdf

 

[The Learner]

That's correct and Jesus had to ask God to do that.

John 14
16And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

John 17
9I ask on their behalf. I do not ask on behalf of the world, but on behalf of those You have given Me; for they are Yours.

John 20:22

Easy-to-Read Version

​

22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit.

 

[The Learner]

rth

 

[Runningman]

Here we see that John the Baptist's water dunking, didnt cause anyone to receive the Holy Spirit.

What do you think happened at Jesus water baptism? In John 1:31, John the Baptist confirms that one of the primary reasons he was water baptizing in the first place was so that the Messiah be revealed by Jesus' own reception of the Holy Spirit. Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit until his water baptism in which God anointed Jesus with the Spirit and empowered him.

Acts 10
37You yourselves know what has happened throughout Judea, beginning in Galilee with the baptism that John proclaimed: 38how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, and how Jesus went around doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, because God was with Him.

See, "there is one Lord, one Faith, and ONE Baptism"..

the One Lord in Ephesians 4:4-6 is the Father and is also the One God who is over all including Jesus.

Ephesians 4
4There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called to one hope when you were called; 5one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.

Why does the NT verse say "ONE", when there are at least 7 "baptisms, in the BIBLE. ???????????

Its because the ONE that SAVES YOU< is to be baptized into The Spirit of God, by The Holy Spirit.

SALVATiON... .or to become """"a NEW CREATiON.. IN CHRIST.."""

= This is cause by the Holy Spirit., not by water or works.

Baptism, is an IMMERSION. .. its to go INTO it....... So, when the Holy Spirit Baptizes you, that is the "regeneration"< = you are put INTO the Spirit of God, BY the Holy Spirit.

That is what it literally means to be : "BORN.....again".

This doesn't need to be a full blown discussion about water baptism and it's off topic anyway. The matter is that water baptism is a pre-requisite for the reception of the Holy Spirit. Jesus is one example, Acts 2 is another, Acts 19, etc.

Paul said this..

"He that hath not the Spirit of God, is NONE of God's"..

So, if you are a True believer, then you are born again....so, you do have the Spirit, or you are not born again yet.

Being born again, is the only PROOF you are a CHRISTian...

As its the one thing a person can not FAKE....as this new Birth, is GOD caused.

Yes I am a true believer and born again. What's your point exactly? Is this where you begin showing your true colors and condemning your debate opponents? I would urge you to please don't do that. Take a breather, relax, and keep this discussion civil. I think if we want to have these sorts of discussions here then the mods really don't want these to get out of hand. Thank you. God bless you!

 

[Runningman]

Seriously?????

I did pass 1st grade reading and I know when Dick saw Spot chase the ball... Spot was running after the ball.

John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

John 1:14
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Your interpretation raises more questions than it answers. Why is Jesus not God throughout the New Testament and not the word of God either? That's why I am inclined to seek an alternative interpretation or translation of that. There are many valid interpretations and translations that actually mesh well with the entire body of scripture.

Besides, 1 John 1:1-3 is a parallel to some of the key points of John 1. In summary, it says that in the beginning the Word of Life was an it, a thing, that the disciples could see, hear, touch, and it was manifested or revealed in a man. It doesn't described a pre-existent being known as the Word incarnating as a human. The Old Testament doesn't mention anyone called the Word. I believe John 1 contains personification because God's word isn't actually a person.

What does this mean?

Before the Son of God, called Jesus was born.... He WAS from the very beginning called the Word.
It was He who spoke things into existence... He was God... They were God.... They each had their own roles.

Interesting theory.

You are you and your wife is she. You each have your own roles in your marriage. But God calls you one.
Eph 5:31 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and shall be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.

The "one flesh" refers to intercourse to the best of my understanding. There isn't any actually conjoining of the flesh. It's just a nice way of talking about something he didn't really want to describe in detail.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus in fact created all things, and therefore is not Himself created.

John 1:1-17 KJV
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.
3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
6) There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
7) The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
8) He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
9) That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
10) He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
11) He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12) But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13) Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14) And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
15) John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
16) And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
17) For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.

There is no ambiguity in this passage.

The Creator in this passage is God. For example, if you will look at verses 8-9, it says the true Light cometh into the world referring to the present tense and John the Baptist was bearing witness of this. John and Jesus were the same age, give or take a few months, making them both approximately 30 years at the time it was said the true Light was coming into the world. That means Jesus isn't the true Light who gives light to all men coming into the world. When verse 10 says the "world was made by him" then it is referring back to the him mentioned in verse 9, which would be God not Jesus.

Colossians 1:13-16 KJV
13) Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14) In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15) Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16) For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

None here either.

Verse 15 says Jesus is the "image" of the invisible God which would make him not God. The complete context goes to verse 20 where the "all things" in heaven and earth were not reconciled until after Jesus was already born and bled on the cross. The context of the creation refers to the church as the Gospels and Acts confirm. God taught Jesus all of the doctrines, gave him the gospel, and all the words to say to amass a following until ultimately Jesus was sacrificed and bled on the cross.

I'm sure that both John and Paul intended that we would understand Jesus is the Creator God, YHWH of the Old Testament, Jesus in the New.

I don't think they meant to say any differently. Acts 3:13 Jesus is called a servant of God yet again. It means Jesus isn't the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Compare it to Exodus 3:14,15 where the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob is the I AM and called YHWH. That isn't Jesus.

Acts 3
13The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified His servant Jesus.

I've read many long and convoluted arguments over why I shouldn't believe the simple clarity of these passages. Either one believes them, or one finds ways to not.

Much love!

There are many verses that are simple and clear. I recommend you believe this one too:

John 17
3Now this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent

 

[Runningman]

So what, that is a silly skinky thinking on your part.

Why is pointing that out silly?

 

[Runningman]

Colossians 1:16 in the Bible states that Jesus Christ created all things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, through him and for him

Adding "other" is stupid stinkly thinking on the so-called translators of the nwt.

• Four out of the five men on the committee had no Hebrew or Greek training at all. They had only a high school education. Franz studied Greek for two years at the University of Cincinnati, but dropped out after his sophomore year. When asked in a Scotland courtroom if he could translate Genesis 2:4 into Hebrew, Franz replied that he could not. The truth is that Franz was unable to translate Hebrew or Greek.
• What we are left with is a very inexperienced translating committee that twisted Scripture to make it fit the Society's doctrine.

In Acts 4:24-27 Jesus isn't God, the Creator, or the Sovereign Lord. John and Peter prayed together referring to Jesus as a servant. They demonstrated they don't believe Jesus is God. That's why Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as the "image" of the invisible God. An image is not the original but rather a representation. On the point of Jesus being the image of God, we, too, can be in the image of God's Son. Yet, we do not become God afterall. The correct way to interpret Jesus being in the image of God is not that he is God, but like God as a son or daughter of God.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 4
24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

 

[Behold]

What do you think happened at Jesus water baptism? In John 1:31, John the Baptist confirms that one of the primary reasons he was water baptizing in the first place was so that the Messiah be revealed by Jesus' own reception of the Holy Spirit.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit, as "Christ IS That Spirit".

What Spirit?

A.) """"God is A Spirit"""

What Jesus received was an endument for service.. an Anointing for the Ministry that lay ahead.

This is what Peter received as well in Acts 2, as he had already received the Holy Spirit in John 20:22

Jesus did not have the Holy Spirit until his water baptism in which God anointed Jesus with the Spirit and empowered him.

Jesus is the Holy Spirit..>"Christ is that Spirit".

This is why He gave the Holy Spirit to the Apostles in John 20:22

Notice that Jesus told you....>"I have the power to lay my life down and I have the power to take it up again".

Why? Because "Jesus is The Resurrection".. So when Jesus was raised from the dead.. that is "I have the power to take it up again, = His Life... as Jesus "Is the Resurrection".

This is why the Born again are resurrected by Jesus as Jesus who is "the Resurrection" is INSIDE the Born again.

Jesus is "THE Resurrection" Himself.

God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power,

See that?
That is the ANOINTING for the MINISTRY.......that Jesus received when He was water baptized by JOHH the Baptizer.

That is the same that Peter received in Acts 2:38, yet He was not water baptized in Acts 2.

 

[rebuilder 454]

What verse in Scripture says that?

Asking for a friend.

Again.
You read my post...without any understanding.
Another miracle.

 

[rebuilder 454]

In Acts 4:24-27 Jesus isn't God, the Creator, or the Sovereign Lord. John and Peter prayed together referring to Jesus as a servant. They demonstrated they don't believe Jesus is God. That's why Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as the "image" of the invisible God. An image is not the original but rather a representation. On the point of Jesus being the image of God, we, too, can be in the image of God's Son. Yet, we do not become God afterall. The correct way to interpret Jesus being in the image of God is not that he is God, but like God as a son or daughter of God.

Colossians 1
15The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Romans 8
29For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers.

Ephesians 4
24and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Oh yes.
You are 100% correct!!!! But not in your claim!!!!
You have 100% correctly demonstrated how we can leave out the deity verses and convince only watchtowerians and gullible believers that Jesus is not God.

Deny Jesus before men.
He will in turn deny you.

Deadly gamble.

 

[rebuilder 454]

The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:

Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.

“O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever” (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).

Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.

“For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water” (First Apol., LXI).

Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever” (n. 7; PG 5.988).
“We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.’ Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)

Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.

“The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,’ and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . ‘” (Against Heresies X.l)

Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.

“We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.” (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).

Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.

“If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father” (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).

“For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit.” (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)

“Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . ” (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).

Conclusion​

If, as the anti-Trinitarians maintain, the Trinity is not a biblical doctrine and was never taught until the council of Nicea in 325, then why do these quotes exist? The answer is simple: the Trinity is a biblical doctrine, and it was taught before the council of Nicea in 325 A.D.

Yep
Good read

 

[rebuilder 454]

I see you are providing your opinion, but not seeing any scripture. I ask because I have already read the Bible and can't find what you're saying. Thanks.

Pot/kettle.
Oh the irony

 

[rebuilder 454]

Neither Jesus nor I created all things. That's the point I am making

One was not supposed to get the wrong idea that a human being like Jesus created all things. I am sure Paul did not intend for any person to think that.

As Paul pointed out in Colossians 1:15, Jesus isn't the invisible God and Jesus was created. Going forward in this passage, the "all things" refers to the framework for the church in heaven and earth, but not literally all things. Jesus being the creator is demonstrably false using Scripture. The Father, also known as YHWH, is the sole creator. Genesis 2:4-7, Isaiah 44:24, Acts 4:24-27, Acts 17:24,25, etc.

Colossians 1:15 proves Jesus isn't the invisible God and then verses 18-20 prove that the context is about the creation of the church and that the "all things" Jesus accomplished in heaven and earth happened after he was born, when he died, by his blood on the cross.

Colossians 1
20and through Him to reconcile to Himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through the blood of His cross.

side note: Ephesians 2:11-18 is a parallel to Colossians 1:15-20.

Nobody I know of except pentecostal oneness says the Gather and Jesus are the same person.

The debate is NOT that Jesus is the Father.
The debate is that both Jesus and the Father are both one and 2 separate persons.
That truth just kicked out all your verses.
Your verses flow perfectly with the deity of Jesus.
You can NOT reconcile the fact that there was someone with God at creation.
John 1 tells us that not only was that person Jesus, but that He was the creator.
That is the debate.
Not the side diversion that you are creating.
Nobody I know of with any Knowledge thinks Jesus is the Father ( the invisible God)

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes because he is spoken of alone in those spots, but at John 1:1 and 2 Cor 4:4, 2 are being called God and god, thus Ton Theon to the true God, plain Theon to god. Its fact. Trinity bible scholars know its fact, they say nothing because every year billions of dollars would be lost. All those religions would be proved false, and because they know, 2 billion humans would sue all of them for taking their money when they do know.

in no way is that true.Every sentence pure lies.
You 100% made that up.

 

[Wrangler]

Again.
You read my post...without any understanding.
Another miracle.

I understand you are going beyond the r word of God. If there was a verse that said what you claimed, you’d provide it.