A question for mormons.

[Jane_Doe22]

I would say that all of these are responses to the drawing of the Holy Spirit to Christ.

Not necessarily an action that we take, in the sense of something that we initiate.

Initiating is an action.

Of course, God loved us first and moved first.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is more that I can do after I have surrendered to the Lord.

Therefore surrender in itself is not "all that ye can do"...there is more that can be done (in the way of works).

 

[Jane_Doe22]

There is more that I can do after I have surrendered to the Lord.

Therefore surrender in itself is not "all that ye can do"...there is more that can be done.

Giving your whole self is really the only thing you can do, and the only thing that remotely matters.

 

[justbyfaith]

I can do works in order to try and save myself. Of course that won't fly with the Lord.

But those works are done after surrender; and it seems to me that I cannot be a recipient of grace until I have done all the works that I can possibly do, according to the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon).

Nevertheless, John 5:24 teaches me that I am saved by grace upon the first moment that I have believed...and shall not come into condemnation, but have passed from death unto everlasting life.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I can do works in order to try and save myself. Of course that won't fly with the Lord.

But those works are done after surrender; and it seems to me that I cannot be a recipient of grace until I have done all the works that I can possibly do, according to the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon).

Ag

I can do works in order to try and save myself. Of course that won't fly with the Lord.

But those works are done after surrender; and it seems to me that I cannot be a recipient of grace until I have done all the works that I can possibly do, according to the verse in question (in the Book of Mormon).

Again: the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that surrendering becoming a disciple of Christ is the only thing you can do and the only that remotely matters. It is the core of everything.

 

[justbyfaith]

Ag

Again: the belief of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints is that surrendering becoming a disciple of Christ is the only thing you can do and the only that remotely matters. It is the core of everything.

But you must accomplish the ultimum of works in order to be a recipient of grace, according to your verse in the Book of Mormon.

Are you saying that that verse is ignorable by your standards?

Again: there is always more that I can do after I have surrendered to Christ; and the verse in question teaches that I cannot have grace until I have done all that I can do. Since we can do good works after surrendering to Christ, all that I can do is not just my act of surrender; but also includes subsequent works. This is the clear meaning of that scripture to anyone who takes it at face value.

So, in adding the teaching that you have added, you have colored the verse only for those who have heard that teaching so that it appears to be more in conjunction with grace.

It's all good if you can put your trust in the grace of the Lord as a Mormon, that is one heresy down.

The next one has to do with what @Preacher4Truth mentioned: that y'all believe that Jesus isn't God but the spirit-brother of Lucifer; and that this puts you out of the kingdom when you take John 8:24 into account.

 

[justbyfaith]

Also, clearly, John 5:24 teaches us that salvation by grace begins at the moment of first faith.

However, the verse in question in the Book of Mormon teaches that I must do all that I can do before I will become a recipient of grace.

And again, there is more that I can do after I have surrendered to Christ in faith, in the way of works that I can accomplish.

This means that your verse in the Book of Mormon is telling us that we do not have salvation by grace at the moment of first faith; but that rather I have to live a lifetime of many good works and can only receive grace after I have exerted the utmost effort to accomplish all that I can accomplish.

What happens if I missed a work here or there?

I didn't then accomplish all that I can accomplish, I fell short of all the works that I can do.

I would not then become a recipient of grace.

Out of luck.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

But you must accomplish the ultimum of works in order to be a recipient of grace, according to your verse in the Book of Mormon.

Not true.

justbyfaith, LDS Christians believing in living & acting faith. Not shallow "oh yeah I believe" dead faith. Yes, living faith is acting and moving faith. LDS Christians acknowledge this, as does Evangelical theology when you actually get down to it.

Again: there is always more that I can do after I have surrendered to Christ

When you surrendered to Christ, did you not give your entire self to Him? Your heart, mind, might and soul?
What more have you to give than that?

The next one has to do with what @Preacher4Truth mentioned: that y'all believe that Jesus isn't God but the spirit-brother of Lucifer; and that this puts you out of the kingdom when you take John 8:24 into account.

@Preacher4Truth has horrible bad information.

If you honestly want just the facts: just ask me.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Also, clearly, John 5:24 teaches us that salvation by grace begins at the moment of first faith.

Just like I said about the person new to faith.

However, the verse in question in the Book of Mormon teaches that I must do all that I can do before I will become a recipient of grace.

And again, there is more that I can do after I have surrendered to Christ in faith, in the way of works that I can accomplish.

This means that your verse in the Book of Mormon is telling us that we do not have salvation by grace at the moment of first faith; but that rather I have to live a lifetime of many good works and can only receive grace after I have exerted the utmost effort to accomplish all that I can accomplish.

What happens if I missed a work here or there?

I didn't then accomplish all that I can accomplish, I fell short of all the works that I can do.

I would not then become a recipient of grace.

Out of luck.

This was addressed in posts #6 and #15.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm Christ's disciple, not another persons.

What you are telling us that you do not really hold to the beliefs of your own church. Which is hard to believe. And one cannot sincerely be a disciple of Christ and remain in the Mormon cult.

Here is what an ex-Mormon has said publicly:
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.

Indeed everyone should check out the 33 things Mormons won't tell you. Facts Mormons won't tell you

Now JD will turn around and say that all of this is lies, but anyone can read the Mormon *sacred books* and other Mormon writings and confirm this to be true.

 

[aspen]

@Jane_Doe22

Consider John 5:24:

Jhn 5:24, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The words of Jesus, in which He says that He is speaking "verily, verily" and tells us that, in effect, everlasting life begins at the moment of faith; i.e. the moment you have faith, you have passed from death unto life: you are saved by grace.

How then do you reconcile this with what is written in the Book of Mormon, from which they greatly derive their doctrine of salvation, that "ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do"?

It seems to me that the Book of Mormon and its doctrines are not compatible with biblical Christianity.

But if you can answer this question, I may consider mormonism a little bit further.

Yes, Luther believed in faith alone, which lead him to add the word “alone” to Romans 3:28; however, Protestants, Evangelicals, and Catholics today agree that salvation is by God’s Grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not true.

justbyfaith, LDS Christians believing in living & acting faith. Not shallow "oh yeah I believe" dead faith. Yes, living faith is acting and moving faith. LDS Christians acknowledge this, as does Evangelical theology when you actually get down to it.

"ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do"

vs.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is therefore a matter of what you are saying Mormons believe vs. what the Book of Mormon teaches. If Mormons are in agreement with Ephesians 2:8-9, then they ought to publicly denounce the Book of Mormon. Because the verse in the Book of Mormon is in contradiction to it.

For is it not true that "all that ye can do" is more than surrender? It consists of the things that you do after you surrender.

It is not true that I can do nothing more after I have surrendered my life to Christ. There is much more that I can do, in the way of works.

Therefore, you are not a recipient of grace until you do all that you can do, in the way of works, after you surrender; and this means that you do not have the enabling power of the Lord to help you to do those works; because you will not receive that enabling power (grace) until after you have done them all.

To disagree with this is to disagree with the Book of Mormon.

You can do that if you wish; but I just find it interesting that Mormons don't want to follow their own documents that they tout as inspired scripture.

When you surrendered to Christ, did you not give your entire self to Him? Your heart, mind, might and soul?
What more have you to give than that?

Is giving my entire self to Him all that I can do? Can I not give money to the poor, for example, after I have surrendered my life to Christ? And is this not something that I should do if I have surrendered my life? And is this not something that I can do? It will not save me; but it will justify me before man (James 2:24, Romans 4:2).

If you can do it, then it applies under the catergory of "all that ye can do."

 

[Prayer Warrior]

Not true.

justbyfaith, LDS Christians believing in living & acting faith. Not shallow "oh yeah I believe" dead faith. Yes, living faith is acting and moving faith. LDS Christians acknowledge this, as does Evangelical theology when you actually get down to it.

When you surrendered to Christ, did you not give your entire self to Him? Your heart, mind, might and soul?
What more have you to give than that?

@Preacher4Truth has horrible bad information.

If you honestly want just the facts: just ask me.

Hi, Jane, I would like to see you support what you're saying and refute what JBF is saying based on the Book of Mormon, since it contains the idea JBF is challenging in this thread. Just a request.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes.

Ever looked into why they don't use Joseph Smith's bible "version?"

My wife grew up in the RLDS church (similar to LDS church) and her church used Joseph Smith's so called "Inspired Version" of the Bible. In his Inspired Version, Joseph made additions, deletions and revisions to the King James Version numbering well over 2,000. He made approximately 693 changes in the Old Testament, 1,453 changes in the New, and totally deleted the Song of Solomon! In Genesis alone, he added over 150 verses. - Joseph Smith's Inspired Version of the Bible - LifeLine Ministries to RLDS

 

[mailmandan]

"ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do"

vs.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is therefore a matter of what you are saying Mormons believe vs. what the Book of Mormon teaches. If Mormons are in agreement with Ephesians 2:8-9, then they ought to publicly denounce the Book of Mormon. Because the verse in the Book of Mormon is in contradiction to it.

"Saved by grace, after all you can do?" - In other words, do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you/salvation by works.

Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) - Thus saith the Lord.

*Contradiction indeed.*

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What you are telling us that you do not really hold to the beliefs of your own church. .

Being a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints in about being a disciple Christ.
He alone is the Savior and He alone I follow. He is the foundation & center of my world.
All of other people are flawed sinners, even those that God uses as His servants.

Here is what an ex-Mormon has said publicly:
MORMONS WON'T TELL YOU that all their so- called scriptures such as the Book of Mormon, Pearl of Great Price, Doctrine and Covenants, and even their official "Mormon Doctrine" statements contradict each other on MAJOR doctrinal points. The King James Bible is likewise contradicted.

Indeed everyone should check out the 33 things Mormons won't tell you. Facts Mormons won't tell you

Now JD will turn around and say that all of this is lies, but anyone can read the Mormon *sacred books* and other Mormon writings and confirm this to be true.

Ah. blind bashers going to bash
Enoch111 if you or anyone else wants to discuss things and come to a better understanding each other (including these so called "33 facts people won't tell you"), just ask.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes, Luther believed in faith alone, which lead him to add the word “alone” to Romans 3:28; however, Protestants, Evangelicals, and Catholics today agree that salvation is by God’s Grace through faith, Ephesians 2:8-9.

And LDS Christians also add voice to that choir

 

[Jane_Doe22]

"ye are saved by grace, after all that ye can do"

vs.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.

It is therefore a matter of what you are saying Mormons believe vs. what the Book of Mormon teaches. If Mormons are in agreement with Ephesians 2:8-9, then they ought to publicly denounce the Book of Mormon. Because the verse in the Book of Mormon is in contradiction to it.

For is it not true that "all that ye can do" is more than surrender? It consists of the things that you do after you surrender.

It is not true that I can do nothing more after I have surrendered my life to Christ. There is much more that I can do, in the way of works.

Therefore, you are not a recipient of grace until you do all that you can do, in the way of works, after you surrender; and this means that you do not have the enabling power of the Lord to help you to do those works; because you will not receive that enabling power (grace) until after you have done them all.

To disagree with this is to disagree with the Book of Mormon.

You can do that if you wish; but I just find it interesting that Mormons don't want to follow their own documents that they tout as inspired scripture.



Is giving my entire self to Him all that I can do? Can I not give money to the poor, for example, after I have surrendered my life to Christ? And is this not something that I should do if I have surrendered my life? And is this not something that I can do? It will not save me; but it will justify me before man (James 2:24, Romans 4:2).

If you can do it, then it applies under the catergory of "all that ye can do."

"Saved by grace, after all you can do?" - In other words, do all you can or else the Lord will not be able to save you/salvation by works.

Saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) - Thus saith the Lord.

*Contradiction indeed.*

Hi, Jane, I would like to see you support what you're saying and refute what JBF is saying based on the Book of Mormon, since it contains the idea JBF is challenging in this thread. Just a request.

Should I likewise denounce the Book of James it's downright blatant declaration "Faith without works is dead"? Should I declare the Bible to be a contradiction to itself? Should I do as Martin Luther did and refer to the Book fo James as an "epistle of straw"?

NO!!

JBF, no one's should indulge in one-verse-founded theology. Rather, we need to look the world of scripture, and understand things as a whole. Ephesians 2:8-9 are great verses, but we must not also forget all of the verses which urge actions as a huge part of the believer's life.

Neither you nor I belief in cheap grace. We each give our entire selfs to Christ - that's all that can be given. The Gospel is all about the contrite spirit and a broken heart.

Everything a person does after that accepting of Christ (such as studying scripture, giving alms, serving each other, ministering to one another, etc), are fantastic. And a disciple of Christ should indeed do these things. But those actions aren't what's doing the saving. And your very ability to do them and walk with Christ is empowered by God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

My wife grew up in the RLDS church (similar to LDS church) and her church used Joseph Smith's so called "Inspired Version" of the Bible. In his Inspired Version, Joseph made additions, deletions and revisions to the King James Version numbering well over 2,000. He made approximately 693 changes in the Old Testament, 1,453 changes in the New, and totally deleted the Song of Solomon! In Genesis alone, he added over 150 verses. - Joseph Smith's Inspired Version of the Bible - LifeLine Ministries to RLDS

RLDS and the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints are two different things.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints uses the King James Version of the Bible (links here if you want to see yourself: Old Testament, New Testament). Yes, it has the Song of Solomon, and yes I have studied that every time I do a cover-to-cover study of the Bible and it's verses included in topical studies.

The Joseph Smith writings are viewed as being commentary (not scripture) and are literally a foot notes linked in the text.

 

[mailmandan]

Should I likewise denounce the Book of James it's downright blatant declaration "Faith without works is dead"? Should I declare the Bible to be a contradiction to itself? Should I do as Martin Luther did and refer to the Book fo James as an "epistle of straw"?

NO!!

JBF, no one's should indulge in one-verse-founded theology. Rather, we need to look the world of scripture, and understand things as a whole. Ephesians 2:8-9 are great verses, but we must not also forget all of the verses which urge actions as a huge part of the believer's life.

Neither you nor I belief in cheap grace. We each give our entire selfs to Christ - that's all that can be given. The Gospel is all about the contrite spirit and a broken heart.

Everything a person does after that accepting of Christ (such as studying scripture, giving alms, serving each other, ministering to one another, etc), are fantastic. And a disciple of Christ should indeed do these things. But those actions aren't what's doing the saving. And your very ability to do them and walk with Christ is empowered by God.

I would not denounce the book of James and James does not teach that we are saved "by" works (as certain people erroneously teach). James’ concern is to show the reality of the faith professed by the individual (James 2:18) and demonstrate that the faith claimed (James 2:14) by the individual is genuine. Simple!

“Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith (which is like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree). James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it’s dead. If someone merely says-claims they have faith, but lack resulting evidential works, then they have an empty profession of faith/dead faith and not authentic faith.

James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).