A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[St. SteVen]

In harmony with other verses of Scripture I believe that death is an unconscious state, like a deep sleep. Jesus described the dead as being asleep and that he had the power to wake them from that sleep - to raise them to life again.

Thanks for your detailed response.

What do you make of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?
Certainly a description of a conscious state in the afterlife.

Luke 16:22-28 NIV
“The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side.
The rich man also died and was buried.
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away,
with Lazarus by his side.
24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham,
have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue,
because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things,
while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony.
26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place,
so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family,
28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them,
so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’

 

[The Learner]

I did search about it before I posted. Wikipedia states the structure of Ecclesiastes as:

• Title (1:1)
• Initial poem (1:2–11)
• I: Kohelet's investigation of life (1:12–6:9)
• II: Kohelet's conclusions (6:10–11:6)
  • Introduction (6:10–12)
  • A: Man cannot discover what is good for him to do (7:1–8:17)
  • B: Man does not know what will come after him (9:1–11:6)
• Concluding poem (11:7–12:8)
• Epilogue (12:9–14)

So 22 of the 222 verses are part of a poem, meaning that 90% of it is not a poem, and Ecclesiastes 9:5 is not part of a poem.

Hebrew was my first language it is all a poem format. Also, I posted links and quotes to that effect. Anyone can post an uneducated opinion on wickedPedia.

"Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist."

CJB
So I considered the dead happier, because they were already dead, than the living, who must still live their lives;

NIV
And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive.

Ecclesiastes 4:2 VULGATE;NIV - et laudavi magis mortuos quam - Bible Gateway

et laudavi magis mortuos quam viventes;

www.biblegateway.com

NIVUK
And I declared that the dead, who had already died, are happier than the living, who are still alive

ISV
So I commended the dead who had already died as being happier than the living who are still alive.

NIRV
Then I announced that those who have already died are happier than those who are still alive.

Those translations farther from the Hebrew have "better off" or "more fortunate". The outdated is not based on the Hebrew, but is based on the Latin Vulgate:"Wherefore I praised the dead which are already dead more than the living which are yet alive." http://bibleglot.com/pair/Vulgate/KJV/Eccl.4/http://bibleglot.com/pair/Vulgate/KJV/Eccl.4/

 

[The Learner]

Ecclesiastes 9:5 reads, “For the living know that they will die, / but the dead know nothing; / they have no further reward, / and even their name is forgotten.” This verse is sometimes used as a proof text for annihilationism, but that concept is not what is being communicated here. The “dead know nothing,” but in what way?

First, it is clear from other places in the Bible that this verse cannot mean the dead have absolutely no knowledge. For example, Matthew 25:46 speaks of everlasting consciousness: “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Every person will spend eternity with God in heaven or apart from Him in hell. Each person will have feelings, thoughts, and abilities that exist in eternity.

In fact, Luke 16:19–31 offers an example of human capabilities in the afterlife. Lazarus is in paradise in eternal joy, while the rich man is in torment in hell (called “Hades”). The rich man has feelings, can talk, and has the ability to remember, think, and reason.

Second, Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist.

The key to understanding the statement “the dead know nothing” is found in the theme of the book of Ecclesiastes. Ecclesiastes is written specifically from an earthly perspective. The key phrase, repeated throughout the book, is under the sun, used about thirty times. Solomon is commenting on an earth-bound life, “under the sun,” without God. His conclusion, also repeated throughout the book, is that everything from that perspective is “vanity” or emptiness (Ecclesiastes 1:2).

When a person dies “under the sun,” the earthly perspective, without God, is that it’s over. He is no longer under the sun. There is no more knowledge to give or be given, just a grave to mark his remains. Those who have died have “no further reward” in this life; they no longer have the ability to enjoy life like those who are living. Eventually, “even their name is forgotten” (Ecclesiastes 9:5).

Ecclesiastes 9:5 displays a chiastic structure (ABBA format) like this:

A “For the living know that they will die,
B but the dead know nothing;
B they have no further reward,
A and even their name is forgotten.”

Lines 1 and 4 are parallel thoughts in the sense that the living know death is coming while those who remain after a person dies quickly forget those who have died. The second and third lines lay down associated ideas in parallel: the dead know nothing, and the dead can no longer enjoy or be rewarded for their activities in this life.

The saying “the dead know nothing” seems to be a negative sentiment, but it is not without a positive message. Solomon encourages his readers to live life to its fullest, knowing life is short. In the end, the fullest life is one that honors God and keeps His ways (Ecclesiastes 12:13–14).

What does it mean that the dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5)? | GotQuestions.org

What does it mean that the dead know nothing? What is the meaning of Ecclesiastes 9:5?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[The Learner]

The antithetical parallelism in Ecclesiastes 10:2 is quite apparent:

“The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.”

...

Much of the Bible was originally written in poetic form. Psalms, Proverbs, the Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, and Lamentations are almost entirely poetic. Most of the prophets also wrote in poetry, some of them exclusively so. Because poetry is so pervasive in the Hebrew writings, it is beneficial for the student of the Bible to study the structure and forms of parallelism.

What is antithetical parallelism in Hebrew poetry? | GotQuestions.org

What is antithetical parallelism in Hebrew poetry? How can I understand the parallelism used in Psalms and Proverbs?

www.gotquestions.org

 

[The Learner]

1. SYNONYMOUS PARALLELISM
As the name implies, this type has the second or parallel line saying about the same thing as the first—for emphasis. Proverbs is especially full of these:

In the way of righteousness is life,
And in its pathway there is no death (Prov. 12:28).

I am the rose of Sharon,
And the lily of the valleys (Song 2:1).

2. ANTITHETIC PARALLELISM
This type puts two lines “against” each other that form a contrast:

For the LORD knows the way of the righteous,
But the way of the ungodly shall perish (Ps. 1:6).

Hatred stirs up strife,
But love covers all sins (Prov. 10:12).

3. FORMAL PARALLELISM
This type is parallel in form only; the two (or more) lines don’t contrast, expand, or emphasize. It is just two lines of poetry put together to express a thought or theme:

Yet I have set My King
On My holy hill of Zion (Ps. 2:6).

4. SYNTHETIC PARALLELISM
The second line of poetry builds up (synthesis is Greek for “putting together”) the thought in the first line:

The LORD is my shepherd;
I shall not want (Ps. 23:1).

Keep your heart with all diligence,
For out of it spring the issues of life (Prov. 4:23).

5. EMBLEMATIC PARALLELISM
A figure of speech in the first line of poetry illustrates the content of the second line:

As the deer pants for the water brooks,
So pants my soul for You, O God (Ps. 42:1).

As a ring of gold in a swine’s snout,
So is a lovely woman who lacks discretion (Prov. 11:22).

Poetry in the Bible: Parallelism

This content on parallelism and poetry in the Bible is from the Believer's Bible Commentary. WHAT IS PARALLELISM? Bible poetry’s greatest technique is not

www.olivetree.com

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/devotionals/parallelism

The following types of parallel structure are attempts to organize this feature of Hebrew poetic writing as an aid to reading and study. It should be kept in mind that Old Testament writers were very creative, and a great number of variations and combinations of these basic types occur in the biblical text.

Parallelism in Hebrew Writing

 

[The Learner]

Ecc 9:5 itself is a parallelism. those on earth's surface, those in the grave

"When dealing with religious and sapiential poetry, chronology need not be the overfiding consideration."

https://www.jstor.org/stable/1453300

 

[The Learner]

This article will provide a survey of the nature of Hebrew poetry and provide examples of the various forms of parallelism exhibited in the six poetic books of the Bible: Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Song of Solomon, and Lamentations. ... Proverbs and Ecclesiastes take the form of a teacher passing on instructions to his readers. Despite their differences, these books are primarily written as poetry, and, as such, contain a great deal of parallelism. ...
Because of laziness the building decays,
And through the idleness of hands the house leaks (Ecclesiastes 10:18).

Antithetic parallelism is also utilized throughout the book, seemingly to a higher degree than the synonymous kind. This is often done to contrast the wise man and the fool. ... Parsons, G. W. 2003. Guidelines for understanding and proclaiming the book of Ecclesiastes, Part I. Bibliotheca Sacra 160:159–173.

Major Error in Hermeneutic Many Old-Earth Creationists

This article will provide a survey of the nature of Hebrew poetry and provide examples of the various forms of parallelism exhibited in the six poetic books of the Bible.

answersresearchjournal.org

 

[The Learner]

I suggest you stick with well known scholars, not fictional sources like wickedpedia.

 

[The Learner]

Well if you're not interested in finding out what God's Word to us actually means, that's your choice. As for me, I want to learn and understand the truth.

2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 (WEB):

(8) Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming;​

(9) even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,​

(10) and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.​

(11) Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie;​

(12) that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.​

2 Timothy 2:15
KJV:

(15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

ESV:

(15) Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.​

So do you believe that that verse means that hell will be destroyed and no longer exist, or do you think that hell will live forever in burning fire and be tormented, or something else?

Stop your nonsense of calling others non-believers. Doing child like stuff like that tells us you do not even understand our simple statements.

 

[St. SteVen]

Hebrew was my first language...

Tell us more about that. Thanks.

 

[St. SteVen]

The antithetical parallelism in Ecclesiastes 10:2 is quite apparent:

“The heart of the wise inclines to the right,
but the heart of the fool to the left.”

...

Much of the Bible was originally written in poetic form. Psalms, Proverbs, the Song of Solomon, Ecclesiastes, and Lamentations are almost entirely poetic. Most of the prophets also wrote in poetry, some of them exclusively so. Because poetry is so pervasive in the Hebrew writings, it is beneficial for the student of the Bible to study the structure and forms of parallelism.

What is antithetical parallelism in Hebrew poetry? | GotQuestions.org

What is antithetical parallelism in Hebrew poetry? How can I understand the parallelism used in Psalms and Proverbs?

www.gotquestions.org

This deserves a topic.

 

[keithr]

The 2nd Death, is eternal, and its not physical......and it never ends.

If dying never ends then it is not death - it's still eternal life! If the death is eternal then it means you can never become alive again. Life is life; physical or not is not relevant to whether you are alive or dead, and conscious or not.

Its literally the eternal life of the "damned"., because God's wrath REMAINS on them......

Its these.

John 3:36

John 3:36

(36) He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.​

That simply means that without believing in Jesus you are condemned by God and will suffer the second death. As always, the contrast is eternal life or eternal death. Romans 6:23 (WEB):

(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.​

 

[keithr]

"Ecclesiastes 9:5 cannot contradict Ecclesiastes 4:2. There, Solomon states that the dead are “happier than the living.” However, when a person is dead, the opportunities to enjoy things on earth no longer exist."

Taken in context, Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 (WEB):

(1) Then I returned and saw all the oppressions that are done under the sun: and behold, the tears of those who were oppressed, and they had no comforter; and on the side of their oppressors there was power; but they had no comforter.​

(2) Therefore I praised the dead who have been long dead more than the living who are yet alive.​

(3) Yes, better than them both is him who has not yet been, who has not seen the evil work that is done under the sun.​

Solomon is obviously saying that those alive suffer a lot and have no comforter, therefore those that have died no longer have to suffer and are at peace (unconscious, no thoughts). He therefore considers to be dead is more peaceful and happier than to be alive (put him on suicide watch! ). He then says better still are those who have not yet even been born, because they won't have experienced any suffering nor seen the evil in the world. So being dead is similar to not having been born. I don't see any contradiction with 9:5 ("the dead don’t know anything").

 

[keithr]

Thanks for your detailed response.

What do you make of the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus?

See Why Hell is not a place of eternal conscious torment.

 

[keithr]

Stop your nonsense of calling others non-believers. Doing child like stuff like that tells us you do not even understand our simple statements.

I don't understand how you could think that what I wrote meant that I was calling you an unbeliever. Such a thought never entered my head when I wrote that post. All I wrote was:

Well if you're not interested in finding out what God's Word to us actually means, that's your choice. As for me, I want to learn and understand the truth.​

So I meant that as a believer you, like me, should want to find out what God's Word truly means, and not rely on what we may have been told - we should want to be sure that what we believe is actually true (as Paul wrote to Timothy, we should "rightly handle the word of truth", 2 Timothy 2:15). Many people when reading the Bible make assumptions and deductions based on our modern experiences and what we've been told, and don't bother to study in detail what the written words actually mean. Gehenna is such a word. Rather than relying on a translator who decided to translate it as hell, the same word he/they used for other different Hebrew and Greek words, and therefore misleading people into thinking that Jesus was referring to something different to what he was actually referring to, we should want to know what Jesus actually meant. That means understanding that Jesus was referring to a deep narrow valley right outside the walls of Jerusalem that was used as a garbage dump, and where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It was also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, would be dumped. It also became a place of public executions. Hence, for example, Jesus said, Matthew 5:27-29 (WEB):

(27) “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery;’​

(28) but I tell you that everyone who gazes at a woman to lust after her has committed adultery with her already in his heart.​

(29) If your right eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.​

meaning, that rather than gazing at and lusting after a woman, which could lead to you eventually commiting adultery (your "eye causes you to stumble") resulting in you being executed and your dead body being thrown into the fires in the Valley of Hinnom, it would be better for you to pluck out your own eye to avoid that. Jesus is pointing out the source of our sins is our thoughts, and we therefore need to work to purify our thoughts (in the same passage he had said earlier, 5:8 - "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God").

I also asked you what you understood the verse "Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire" to mean, since you quoted it:

​

So do you believe that that verse means that hell will be destroyed and no longer exist, or do you think that hell will live forever in burning fire and be tormented, or something else?​

but you haven't answered. How does your understanding of it harmonise with Jesus saying, John 3:14-17 (WEB):

(14) As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,​

(15) that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.​

(17) For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.​

Twice Jesus says that those who don't believe in him would perish (Greek apollumi, meaning "to destroy fully" - Strong's), not that they would be forever tormented in fire. Those that believe in him will have eternal life, those that don't will not have eternal life - not even an eternal life of torment. Note that Jesus didn't come into the world to judge or punish the world, but to save mankind (Greek krinō, meaning "to distinguish, that is, decide (mentally or judicially); by implication to try, condemn, punish" - Strong's).