A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

[keithr]

Matthew 22:32
God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”

Note: they are not totally asleep in the grave.

What translation is that from? Is it the ERV (Easy To Read Version)? Of the 62 English translations listed by the Bible Gateway website, the ERV is the only one to have added the words "So they were not still dead". You shouldn't trust a translation that adds to the Word of God!

Those added words are clearly wrong. The dead are still dead, and will remain so until the resurrection (a still future event).

Act 2:29 (WEB):

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

John 5:28-29 (MKJV):

(28) Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,​

(29) and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.​

Note: they are still asleep in death. Daniel 12 (WB):

(1) “At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book.​

(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

 

[The Learner]

What translation is that from? Is it the ERV (Easy To Read Version)? Of the 62 English translations listed by the Bible Gateway website, the ERV is the only one to have added the words "So they were not still dead". You shouldn't trust a translation that adds to the Word of God!

Those added words are clearly wrong. The dead are still dead, and will remain so until the resurrection (a still future event).

Act 2:29 (WEB):

(29) “Brothers, I may tell you freely of the patriarch David, that he both died and was buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.​

John 5:28-29 (MKJV):

(28) Do not marvel at this, for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves shall hear His voice,​

(29) and shall come forth, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have practiced evil to the resurrection of condemnation.​

Note: they are still asleep in death. Daniel 12 (WB):

(1) “At that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who stands for the children of your people; and there will be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time. At that time your people will be delivered, everyone who is found written in the book.​

(2) Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.​

The passage I posted says otherwise, I am the God of the living

ERV did not add Note: they are not totally asleep in the grave.

 

[The Learner]

Huh? I just quoted two verses of Scripture. What's that got to do with gnosticism?

That is easy friend, John was writing against the Gnostics. Those are two key texts to use with modern day science of mind people.

 

[keithr]

The passage I posted says otherwise, I am the God of the living

You didn't quote a passage, you just quoted a verse, Matthew 22:32, which is only part of a sentence. To quote all of Jesus' sentence, Matthew 22:31-32 (WEB):

(31) But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven’t you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,​

(32) ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”​

Jesus was telling the Sadduces, who didn't believe in the resurrection (Acts 23:8, "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess all of these"), that God is not the God of people that do not exist, but that the souls of the dead still exist and will be resurrected to life again (awakened from sleep). As Jesus also said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

ERV did not add Note: they are not totally asleep in the grave.

As I said, I wouldn't trust the translators if they added to the Scriptures. If I won't trust their translation then I'm definitely not going to trust their glaringly wrong notes! [Edit: Sorry, I must have misread that and missed the word "not"!]

Jesus said of Lazarus, who was dead and in grave/tomb, John 11 (WEB):

(11) He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”​

(13) Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep.​

Isaiah 26:19 (MKJV):

(19) Your dead ones shall live, together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of lights, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

 

[The Learner]

You didn't quote a passage, you just quoted a verse, Matthew 22:32, which is only part of a sentence. To quote all of Jesus' sentence, Matthew 22:31-32 (WEB):

(31) But concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven’t you read that which was spoken to you by God, saying,​

(32) ‘I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?’ God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.”​

Jesus was telling the Sadduces, who didn't believe in the resurrection (Acts 23:8, "For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, nor angel, nor spirit; but the Pharisees confess all of these"), that God is not the God of people that do not exist, but that the souls of the dead still exist and will be resurrected to life again (awakened from sleep). As Jesus also said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):

(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.​

As I said, I wouldn't trust the translators if they added to the Scriptures. If I won't trust their translation then I'm definitely not going to trust their glaringly wrong notes! [Edit: Sorry, I must have misread that and missed the word "not"!]

Jesus said of Lazarus, who was dead and in grave/tomb, John 11 (WEB):

(11) He said these things, and after that, he said to them, “Our friend, Lazarus, has fallen asleep, but I am going so that I may awake him out of sleep.”​

(13) Now Jesus had spoken of his death, but they thought that he spoke of taking rest in sleep.​

Isaiah 26:19 (MKJV):

(19) Your dead ones shall live, together with my dead body they shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is as the dew of lights, and the earth shall cast out the dead.​

Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus
23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”

29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”

33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.

Which Command Is the Most Important?
34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”

37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”

Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?
41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”

The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”

43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,

Show everyone the text that says they already rose from the Dead?

 

[The Learner]

Matthew 27:51-53
Easy-to-Read Version
51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.

The O.T. saints did not physically raise from the dead until a few chapters after what he said about them. Thus, he knew they were alive in Sheol.

Isaiah 14:1-11
Easy-to-Read Version
Israel Will Return Home
14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.

A Song About the King of Babylon
4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:

The king was cruel when he ruled us,
but now his rule is finished.
5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;
he takes away their power.
6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.
He never stopped beating them.
He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.
He never stopped hurting people.
7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.
Now the people begin to celebrate.
8 You were an evil king,
and now you are finished.
Even the pine trees are happy.
The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.
They say, “The king chopped us down,
but now the king has fallen,
and he will never stand again.”
9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

Me: the text cleary says the dead in the grave are alive like us. They are awake and asleep like we on earth are. They do not know what is going on on the surface of the earth. Ecc 9

 

[The Learner]

Isaiah 26

19 But the Lord says,
“Your people have died,
but they will live again.
The bodies of my people
will rise from death.
Dead people in the ground,
stand and be happy!
The dew covering you is like
the dew sparkling in the light of a new day.
It shows that a new time is coming,
when the earth will give birth to the dead who are in it.”

Me: Thanks for bringing this text to my attention~! It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.

 

[keithr]

29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”

Show everyone the text that says they already rose from the Dead?

You're just repeating yourself and quoting the same Scripture from the same translation, which I've already pointed out is the only translation which has added "So they were not still dead"!

Young's Literal Translation says, "God is not a God of dead men, but of living". Adding "so they were not still dead" is a severe corruption of the original Scripture.

 

[keithr]

9 The place of death is excited
that you are coming.
Sheol is waking the spirits
of all the leaders of the earth for you.
Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”
11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.
The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.
Maggots will be the bed you lie on,
and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.

Me: the text cleary says the dead in the grave are alive like us. They are awake and asleep like we on earth are. They do not know what is going on on the surface of the earth. Ecc 9

This is poetic writing - a song. It should not be taken literally, unlike literal verses such as:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (WEB):

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.​

Psalm 146:3-4 (WEB):

(3) Don’t put your trust in princes, each a son of man in whom there is no help.​

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

Sheol (the grave, hell) is not an intelligent living being that can be excited and can wake up dead previous kings, and those dead kings have no thoughts so they can't mock the king of Babylon and say "Now you are weak like us". (Note - the ERV mistranlstes it - again! - the Hebrew word chalah does not mean dead.)

You seem to think that the dead kings didn't know what was going on in the earth, and that is correct, but the poetic writing implies that the kings did know about the king of Babylon and how great a king he was, and how proud and arrogant he was.

 

[keithr]

Isaiah 26

19 But the Lord says,
“Your people have died,
but they will live again.
The bodies of my people
will rise from death.
Dead people in the ground,
stand and be happy!
The dew covering you is like
the dew sparkling in the light of a new day.
It shows that a new time is coming,
when the earth will give birth to the dead who are in it.”

Me: Thanks for bringing this text to my attention~! It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.

No it doesn't show that dead people are alive! As Jesus said, John 5:28-29 (WEB):

(28) Don’t marvel at this, for the hour comes, in which all that are in the tombs will hear his voice,​

(29) and will come out; those who have done good, to the resurrection of life; and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.​

The dead will only hear and become conscious again when they are resurrected. Isaiah 26:19 is describing the future resurrection:

(19) Your dead shall live. My dead bodies shall arise. Awake and sing, you who dwell in the dust; for your dew is like the dew of herbs, and the earth will cast out the departed spirits.​

 

[The Learner]

This is poetic writing - a song. It should not be taken literally, unlike literal verses such as:

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (WEB):

(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.​

Psalm 146:3-4 (WEB):

(3) Don’t put your trust in princes, each a son of man in whom there is no help.​

(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.​

Sheol (the grave, hell) is not an intelligent living being that can be excited and can wake up dead previous kings, and those dead kings have no thoughts so they can't mock the king of Babylon and say "Now you are weak like us". (Note - the ERV mistranlstes it - again! - the Hebrew word chalah does not mean dead.)

You seem to think that the dead kings didn't know what was going on in the earth, and that is correct, but the poetic writing implies that the kings did know about the king of Babylon and how great a king he was, and how proud and arrogant he was.

Those texts are poetic writings too. Thus your rule goes against you too. lol

 

[The Learner]

Isaiah 14:1-11 and 26 shows that those in the grave are alive.



Some Sadducees Try to Trick Jesus

23 That same day some Sadducees came to Jesus. (Sadducees believe that no one will rise from death.) The Sadducees asked Jesus a question. 24 They said, “Teacher, Moses told us that if a married man dies and had no children, his brother must marry the woman. Then they will have children for the dead brother.[a] 25 There were seven brothers among us. The first brother married but died. He had no children. So his brother married the woman. 26 Then the second brother also died. The same thing happened to the third brother and all the other brothers. 27 The woman was the last to die. 28 But all seven men had married her. So when people rise from death, whose wife will she be?”



29 Jesus answered, “You are so wrong! You don’t know what the Scriptures say. And you don’t know anything about God’s power. 30 At the time when people rise from death, there will be no marriage. People will not be married to each other. Everyone will be like the angels in heaven. 31 Surely you have read what God said to you about people rising from death. 32 God said, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.’ So they were not still dead, because he is the God only of living people.”



33 When the people heard this, they were amazed at Jesus’ teaching.



Which Command Is the Most Important?

34 The Pharisees learned that Jesus had made the Sadducees look so foolish that they stopped trying to argue with him. So the Pharisees had a meeting. 35 Then one of them, an expert in the Law of Moses, asked Jesus a question to test him. 36 He said, “Teacher, which command in the law is the most important?”



37 Jesus answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, and all your mind.’[c] 38 This is the first and most important command. 39 And the second command is like the first: ‘Love your neighbor[d] the same as you love yourself.’[e] 40 All of the law and the writings of the prophets take their meaning from these two commands.”



Is the Messiah David’s Son or David’s Lord?

41 So while the Pharisees were together, Jesus asked them a question. 42 He said, “What do you think about the Messiah? Whose son is he?”



The Pharisees answered, “The Messiah is the Son of David.”



43 Jesus said to them, “Then why did David call him ‘Lord’? David was speaking by the power of the Spirit. He said,



Show everyone the text that says they already rose from the Dead?



Matthew 27:51-53

Easy-to-Read Version

51 When Jesus died, the curtain in the Temple was torn into two pieces. The tear started at the top and tore all the way to the bottom. Also, the earth shook and rocks were broken. 52 The graves opened, and many of God’s people who had died were raised from death. 53 They came out of the graves. And after Jesus was raised from death, they went into the holy city, and many people saw them.



The O.T. saints did not physically raise from the dead until a few chapters after what he said about them. Thus, he knew they were alive in Sheol.



Isaiah 14:1-11

Easy-to-Read Version

Israel Will Return Home

14 The Lord will again show his love to Jacob. He will again choose the people of Israel. He will give them their land. Then the non-Israelites[a] will join the Israelites, and both will become one family—Jacob’s family. 2 Those nations will bring the Israelites back to their land. The men and women from the other nations will become slaves to Israel. In the past, those people forced the Israelites to become their slaves. But in the future the Israelites will defeat those nations, and Israel will then rule over them in the Lord’s land. 3 In the past, you were slaves. People forced you to work hard. But the Lord will take away the hard work you were forced to do.



A Song About the King of Babylon

4 At that time you will begin to sing this song about the king of Babylon:



The king was cruel when he ruled us,

but now his rule is finished.

5 The Lord breaks the scepter of evil rulers;

he takes away their power.

6 In anger, the king of Babylon beat the people.

He never stopped beating them.

He was an evil ruler who ruled in anger.

He never stopped hurting people.

7 But now, the whole country rests and is quiet.

Now the people begin to celebrate.

8 You were an evil king,

and now you are finished.

Even the pine trees are happy.

The cedar trees of Lebanon rejoice.

They say, “The king chopped us down,

but now the king has fallen,

and he will never stand again.”

9 The place of death is excited

that you are coming.

Sheol is waking the spirits

of all the leaders of the earth for you.

Sheol is making the kings stand up
from their thrones to meet you.
10 They will make fun of you, saying,
“Now you are as dead as we are.
Now you are just like us.”

11 Your pride has been sent down to Sheol.

The music from your harps announces the coming of your proud spirit.

Maggots will be the bed you lie on,

and other worms will cover your body like a blanket.



Me: the text cleary says the dead in the grave are alive like us. They are awake and asleep like we on earth are. They do not know what is going on on the surface of the earth. Ecc 9





Isaiah 26

19 But the Lord says,
“Your people have died,
but they will live again.
The bodies of my people
will rise from death.
Dead people in the ground,
stand and be happy!
The dew covering you is like
the dew sparkling in the light of a new day.
It shows that a new time is coming,
when the earth will give birth to the dead who are in it.”


Me: Thanks for bringing this text to my attention~! It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.

 

[The Learner]

Because the book of Isaiah consists largely of poetry, understanding its poetic structures is essential for interpretation. The basic poetic unit is the line. Although single lines occur occasionally, most lines are grouped into couplets or triplets by parallelism or enjambment; these couplets or triplets are then connected to form whole poems. Structural devices at every level involve both repetition and variation. Most of the poems in Isaiah are loosely organized by a variety of devices, and no two poems are exactly alike. Large sections of the book are joined by similar kinds of devices, so that the book as a whole displays a poetic structure.

https://academic.oup.com/edited-volume/38588/chapter-abstract/334631309?redirectedFrom=fulltext

The Art of Biblical Poetry Revised Updated 2011 by Robert Alter
[MS: Isaiah 14:4 - Calling out tyrants in mashal, songs of mockery, and in the language of poetry in prophetic satire from Isaiah to contemporary tyrants, Stalin, Hitler and others. See below: Russian poet Osip Mandelstam wrote his famous “Stalin Epigram,” like an Isaiah.]

Robert Alter - The Art of Biblical Poetry - Isaiah - Calling Out Tyrants Then and Now - Poems of Mockery and Satire | Sefaria

Robert Alter.The Art of Biblical Poetry, updated 2011, Isaiah, the language of satire in poetry. Calling out tyrants in poetic satire.

www.sefaria.org

 

[The Learner]

Encounter Baptist Church : The Poetry and Puns of Isaiah

Stonnington Baptist Church website

www.encounterbaptist.org.au

https://www.jstor.org/stable/43715321

Isaiah Poems | Examples of Poems about Isaiah

Isaiah Poems - Popular examples of all types of isaiah poetry to share and read. View a list of new poems for ISAIAH by modern poets.

www.poetrysoup.com

Isaiah 11:1–9: The King of Peace (a poem) - Faith in grey places

Governance and graciousness, The sceptre of fragrance and fellowship.

faith.workthegreymatter.com

His blood and his body (a poem reflecting on when Pilate washed his hands) - Faith in grey places

And who would have thought the man Had so much blood in him?

faith.workthegreymatter.com

Is Matthew 27:51-53 historical? | Evidence Unseen

www.evidenceunseen.com

Bible In Poetry: Gospel Of St. Matthew (Chapter 27) - Bible In Poetry: Gospel Of St. Matthew (Chapter 27) Poem by Dr John Celes

Read Bible In Poetry: Gospel Of St. Matthew (Chapter 27) poem by Dr John Celes written. Bible In Poetry: Gospel Of St. Matthew (Chapter 27) poem is from Dr John Celes poems. Bible In Poetry: Gospel Of St. Matthew (Chapter 27) poem summary, analysis and comments.

www.poemhunter.com

https://www.etsjets.org/files/JETS-PDFs/59/59-2/JETS_59-2_271-286_Quarles.pdf

Matthew 27:51-54 Revisited: A Narratological Re-Appropriation — Southern Equip

Resources for Church Leaders

equip.sbts.edu

 

[The Learner]

Poems Distill Wisdom and Truth
Poetry is something to make us wiser and better, by continually revealing these types of beauty and truth which God has set in all men's souls.

– James Russell Lowell
American Romantic poet, critic, editor, and diplomat

Poetry is simply the most beautiful, impressive, and widely effective mode of saying things.

– Matthew Arnold
English poet and cultural critic

Poetry: the best words in the best order.

– Samuel Taylor Coleridge
English poet and a founder of the Romantic Movement

Poems Expose the Reader to New Ideas
Poetry is what we do to break bread with the dead.

– Seamus Heaney
Irish poet, playwright and translator

Poems Provoke Thought and Critical Thinking
Poetry is the opening and closing of a door, leaving those who look through to guess about what is seen during the moment.

– Carl Sandburg
American poet, historian, novelist, balladeer and folklorist

If your daily life seems poor, do not blame it; blame yourself that you are not poet enough to call forth its riches; for to the creator there is no poverty and no poor indifferent place.

Teaching Poetry: 10 Benefits of Poetry & Poem Suggestions for Each Grade

discoverpoetry.com

 

[keithr]

Those texts are poetic writings too. Thus your rule goes against you too. lol

Ecclesiastes is a wisdom book and is not classified as poetry. There may be a couple of poetic passages in it, but the verse I quoted was not poetic.

Psalms are classified as poetic, but also as wisdom. Jesus quoted from the Psalms more than any other Old Testament book.

The important thing is to recognise when a passage is written poetically rather than literally. The passsage In Isaiah 14 that you quoted from says, Isaiah 14:8-9 (TLV):

(8) Even the cypress trees rejoice over you, along with the cedars of Lebanon: “Since you were laid low, no woodcutter comes up against us.”​

(9) Sheol from below is excited about you, to meet you at your coming! He stirs up the dead spirits for you, even the chief ones of the earth. He makes all the kings of the nations rise up from their thrones.​

Clearly trees do not rejoice, nor do they speak. Sheol (hell) is not a male person that can get excited. Likewise the dead kings are not sitting on thrones in sheol (hell), nor are they conscious. It is poetic, not literal.

 

[St. SteVen]

It seems odd to me when Ecclesiastes 9:5 is used as a doctrinal basis for a claim of an unconscious non-exsistent state for the dead.
Specifically to the "the dead know nothing" phrase. Verse below.

Do they also believe that "they have no further reward"?
That "even their name is forgotten"?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

 

[keithr]

It shows clearly that those in the grave are alive like we are.

There are some people alive today who have been dead and and miraclulously restored to life again, e.g. Dr Sean George, who make no mention of being alive when they were dead (which is a contradiction of terms!). Likewise Lazarus, whom Jesus raied to life after he had been dead for 4 days (John 11:17), and other people that were restored to life by Jesus and the apostles, never spoke about being conscious while they were dead. I'm sure that if dead people are not dead but continue living in sheol/hades/hell then they would mention something about it if they are restored to life again. But there is no such record of such experiences.

 

[keithr]

It seems odd to me when Ecclesiastes 9:5 is used as a doctrinal basis for a claim of an unconscious non-exsistent state for the dead.
Specifically to the "the dead know nothing" phrase. Verse below.

Do they also believe that "they have no further reward"?
That "even their name is forgotten"?

Ecclesiastes 9:5 NIV
For the living know that they will die,
but the dead know nothing;
they have no further reward,
and even their name is forgotten.

It looks like only the NIV translates it as "their name is forgotten"; most translations render it as "for the memory of them is forgotten".

But yes, as well as believing "the dead don't know anything" but we should also believe the second part, "They have no further reward, even the memory of them is forgotten" (TLV). The Cambridge Bible Notes says:

neither have they any more a reward] The words exclude the thought (in the then phase of the Debater’s feeling) of reward in a life after death, but the primary meaning of the word is that of “hire” and “wages” (Gen_30:28; Exo_2:9), and the idea conveyed is that the dead no longer find, as on earth, that which rewards their labour. There is no longer even death to look forward to as the wages of his life.​

for the memory of them is forgotten] The Hebrew gives an assonance between “reward” (sheker) and “memory” (zeker), which it is hard to reproduce in English. “Reward” and “record” suggest themselves as the nearest approximation. For the thought see note on ch. Ecc_1:11. Even the immortality of living in the memory of others, which modern thinkers have substituted for the Christian hope, is denied to the vast majority of mankind.​

When unconscious in death we have no thoughts and can not do anything, nor gain anything, and peoples memories and records of the dead are also non existant. We have no memories or records of our ancestors, even well-known and liked people from the past are mostly forgotten.

 

[Behold]

When unconscious in death we have no thoughts and can not do anything, nor gain anything, and peoples memories and records of the dead are also non existant. We have no memories or records of our ancestors, even well-known and liked people from the past are mostly forgotten.

The thousands of people who died in unbelief today, never born again, are in Hell right now, and they are fully aware of it.

Also.
All of them now "believe in Jesus" and they also believe Hell exists.
They are still there, as believers.

Why? Because you have to give God your faith, when you can't see it.... as Faith in Christ is to trust in what you can't see.
If you die, you are in HELL<, and you can SEE IT, and now you know that Jesus is real....and that is not FAITH.