A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)

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Patrick1966

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Another wrote this and I am simply pasting it here for your cognizance.


One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations. It is often incorrectly translated to mean “eternal” when in fact it means “age.” The absurdity of this bad translation can be seen in Revelation 14:11 where the phrase “aionios aionion” which means “age of the ages” is translated as “Forever and Ever.” You cannot add anything to forever because it is already an absolute measure of time. “The age of ages” does not refer to an endless duration of time but rather a specific age that serves a specific purpose. That age will end when its purpose is accomplished. Those who adhere to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment cannot argue about the meaning of this word. Anyone who studies the word meanings will agree that “aion” means “age” and that there is no individual word in Greek that specifically means “eternal.” Instead, they often claim correctly that you must take the word “aion” in context in order to determine whether it means age or eternity. However, they then erroneously infer that the context within the judgment passages is obviously that of eternity. They then argue that if judgment is not eternal, then no afterlife can be eternal since the word “aion” is used in both instances. In other words, “Since “aion” is used to describe both the period of judgment and the period of reward in the same context, how can you say that punishment is temporary and reward is permanent?” The answer is simple, even though you do see punishment and reward addressed together in some verses in which the word “aion” is used for both; there are other instances in which the writers of the New Testament do speak of eternity. Nowhere in scripture is the concept of eternity ever communicated in relation to judgment. Yet, the New Testament writers do speak of eternity in other contexts. As an example, Let us look at four verses from the New Testament book of Jude. Jude 1:6 (NIV) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling— these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. The Greek word for “everlasting” used in this verse is “aidios.” It is the adjective form of the adverb “aei” meaning “always, unceasingly, perpetually or on every occasion.” From this definition, it most certainly sounds like an unending period. Even so, in this context, the word “aidios” CANNOT mean “forever.” How do I know? The message is not extremely clear in Jude 1:6. However, we have a parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:4 which says: “God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment. (CEV) In this instance, Peter is much clearer than Jude is. He gives us an ending point for how long the sinning angels will be tied up. How long will they be in chains? “Until the time of judgment” Therefore the word “everlasting” as used in Jude 1:6 CANNOT mean forever. Jude 1:7 (NIV) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Here the word “eternal” is “aion” meaning age. An age is an indefinite period of time, which could technically mean forever or it can just refer to either a specified or an unspecified period. As we discussed earlier, we need to look at the context of the verse in order to determine whether there is anything that might indicate the duration of that age. In this case, there is. The verse states that Sodom and Gomorrah “serve as an example of those who suffer eternal fire.” Therefore, if we want to know the ultimate effect or the ultimate duration of the “eternal fire” we must turn to Sodom and Gomorrah as an example. In what way is Sodom an example? Once again, let us look at the parallel verse in Peter 2:6: “Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.” When you combine what Jude said with what Peter said, it is obvious that the fire does not burn forever. A person who believes in conditionally immortality, the view that God will destroy the ungodly rather than tormenting them, would say that in this instance, the word “aion” speaks of eternality of consequence rather than eternality of duration. In other words, “The fire was eternal in that it completely accomplished its task and could not be quenched until it was finished.” This makes a lot of sense because obviously the fire is no longer burning. However, was the fire eternal in consequence as the annihilationist claims? Ezekiel 18:53-57 (NIV) However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. “What?” “Did he just say that God will restore Sodom?” Yes he did. If Sodom is an example of the consequence of “eternal fire”, if that fire fully accomplishes its purpose as God designed it too, and if God said that He would restore Sodom, then He will also restore ALL who experience that eternal fire. Therefore, in this instance, “aion” CANNOT refer to a duration of endless torture. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. The Greek word “aionios” in this passage is adjective meaning “age during.” Young’s Literal translates the verse this way: “Yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during” Our brothers and sisters who believe in eternal conscious torment would say, since you cannot assume that “life age-during” is eternal when dealing with punishment, you also cannot assume that Christians will have eternal life either. If you are reading this verse alone in context, they are right; there is nothing in this verse that indicates eternal life. Rightly so because this verse is not about eternal life. It is about age-during life. When is age-during life? It is life in the age of ages. Remember, the age of ages will serve a specific purpose and then a new age will begin. If the writers of the New Testament had intended to communicate punishment that was eternal, could they have done so? Yes! Can we know for sure that there is such a thing as eternal life? Yes! Jude knew the difference. Jude 1:25 To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The Greek word used here is still “aion” just as it is in all of the judgement passages where its meaning is age of ages. How then can I know that this same word means “forever” in this verse? I can know because of the usage of the Greek adjective “pas” meaning “all.” In Young’s Literal, the verse reads this way: To the only wise God our Saviour, [is] glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen. All of the ages is the equivalent of forever. How was “all” used in other scriptures? John 12:32 (ESV) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself. 1 Timothy 4:10 (ESV) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe. 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance. 1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) Who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Colossians 1:20 (ESV) And through him to reconcile to himself ALL things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross. 1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV) For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive. Ephesians 1:10 (ESV) As a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. 1 Timothy 2:6 (ESV) Who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. Acts 3:21 (ESV) Whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring ALL the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. John 17:2 (ESV) Since you have given him authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom you have given him. Titus 2:11 (ESV) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL people, 1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV) When ALL things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put ALL things in subjection under him, that God may be ALL in ALL. Ephesians 1:9-10 (ESV) Making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. Romans 5:18 (ESV) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men. “ALL” means “ALL.” “All ages” means “all ages.” Therefore, we can know that we will have eternal life. “All men” means “all men.” Therefore, we can know that ALL will have eternal life.
 

Keiw

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Another wrote this and I am simply pasting it here for your cognizance.


One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations. It is often incorrectly translated to mean “eternal” when in fact it means “age.” The absurdity of this bad translation can be seen in Revelation 14:11 where the phrase “aionios aionion” which means “age of the ages” is translated as “Forever and Ever.” You cannot add anything to forever because it is already an absolute measure of time. “The age of ages” does not refer to an endless duration of time but rather a specific age that serves a specific purpose. That age will end when its purpose is accomplished. Those who adhere to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment cannot argue about the meaning of this word. Anyone who studies the word meanings will agree that “aion” means “age” and that there is no individual word in Greek that specifically means “eternal.” Instead, they often claim correctly that you must take the word “aion” in context in order to determine whether it means age or eternity. However, they then erroneously infer that the context within the judgment passages is obviously that of eternity. They then argue that if judgment is not eternal, then no afterlife can be eternal since the word “aion” is used in both instances. In other words, “Since “aion” is used to describe both the period of judgment and the period of reward in the same context, how can you say that punishment is temporary and reward is permanent?” The answer is simple, even though you do see punishment and reward addressed together in some verses in which the word “aion” is used for both; there are other instances in which the writers of the New Testament do speak of eternity. Nowhere in scripture is the concept of eternity ever communicated in relation to judgment. Yet, the New Testament writers do speak of eternity in other contexts. As an example, Let us look at four verses from the New Testament book of Jude. Jude 1:6 (NIV) And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling— these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. The Greek word for “everlasting” used in this verse is “aidios.” It is the adjective form of the adverb “aei” meaning “always, unceasingly, perpetually or on every occasion.” From this definition, it most certainly sounds like an unending period. Even so, in this context, the word “aidios” CANNOT mean “forever.” How do I know? The message is not extremely clear in Jude 1:6. However, we have a parallel passage in 2 Peter 2:4 which says: “God did not have pity on the angels that sinned. He had them tied up and thrown into the dark pits of hell until the time of judgment. (CEV) In this instance, Peter is much clearer than Jude is. He gives us an ending point for how long the sinning angels will be tied up. How long will they be in chains? “Until the time of judgment” Therefore the word “everlasting” as used in Jude 1:6 CANNOT mean forever. Jude 1:7 (NIV) In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire. Here the word “eternal” is “aion” meaning age. An age is an indefinite period of time, which could technically mean forever or it can just refer to either a specified or an unspecified period. As we discussed earlier, we need to look at the context of the verse in order to determine whether there is anything that might indicate the duration of that age. In this case, there is. The verse states that Sodom and Gomorrah “serve as an example of those who suffer eternal fire.” Therefore, if we want to know the ultimate effect or the ultimate duration of the “eternal fire” we must turn to Sodom and Gomorrah as an example. In what way is Sodom an example? Once again, let us look at the parallel verse in Peter 2:6: “Later, God condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah and turned them into heaps of ashes. He made them an example of what will happen to the ungodly.” When you combine what Jude said with what Peter said, it is obvious that the fire does not burn forever. A person who believes in conditionally immortality, the view that God will destroy the ungodly rather than tormenting them, would say that in this instance, the word “aion” speaks of eternality of consequence rather than eternality of duration. In other words, “The fire was eternal in that it completely accomplished its task and could not be quenched until it was finished.” This makes a lot of sense because obviously the fire is no longer burning. However, was the fire eternal in consequence as the annihilationist claims? Ezekiel 18:53-57 (NIV) However, I will restore the fortunes of Sodom and her daughters and of Samaria and her daughters, and your fortunes along with them, 54 so that you may bear your disgrace and be ashamed of all you have done in giving them comfort. 55 And your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to what they were before; and you and your daughters will return to what you were before. 56 You would not even mention your sister Sodom in the day of your pride, 57 before your wickedness was uncovered. “What?” “Did he just say that God will restore Sodom?” Yes he did. If Sodom is an example of the consequence of “eternal fire”, if that fire fully accomplishes its purpose as God designed it too, and if God said that He would restore Sodom, then He will also restore ALL who experience that eternal fire. Therefore, in this instance, “aion” CANNOT refer to a duration of endless torture. Jude 1:21 Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life. The Greek word “aionios” in this passage is adjective meaning “age during.” Young’s Literal translates the verse this way: “Yourselves in the love of God keep ye, waiting for the kindness of our Lord Jesus Christ -- to life age-during” Our brothers and sisters who believe in eternal conscious torment would say, since you cannot assume that “life age-during” is eternal when dealing with punishment, you also cannot assume that Christians will have eternal life either. If you are reading this verse alone in context, they are right; there is nothing in this verse that indicates eternal life. Rightly so because this verse is not about eternal life. It is about age-during life. When is age-during life? It is life in the age of ages. Remember, the age of ages will serve a specific purpose and then a new age will begin. If the writers of the New Testament had intended to communicate punishment that was eternal, could they have done so? Yes! Can we know for sure that there is such a thing as eternal life? Yes! Jude knew the difference. Jude 1:25 To the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen. The Greek word used here is still “aion” just as it is in all of the judgement passages where its meaning is age of ages. How then can I know that this same word means “forever” in this verse? I can know because of the usage of the Greek adjective “pas” meaning “all.” In Young’s Literal, the verse reads this way: To the only wise God our Saviour, [is] glory and greatness, power and authority, both now and to all the ages! Amen. All of the ages is the equivalent of forever. How was “all” used in other scriptures? John 12:32 (ESV) And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL people to myself. 1 Timothy 4:10 (ESV) For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of ALL people, especially of those who believe. 2 Peter 3:9 (ESV) The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but that ALL should reach repentance. 1 Timothy 2:4 (ESV) Who desires ALL people to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. Colossians 1:20 (ESV) 1 Corinthians 15:22 (ESV) For as in Adam ALL die, so also in Christ shall ALL be made alive. Ephesians 1:10 (ESV) As a 1 Timothy 2:6 (ESV) Who gave himself as a ransom for ALL, which is the testimony given at the proper time. Acts 3:21 (ESV) Whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring ALL the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. John 17:2 (ESV) Since you have given him authority over ALL flesh, to give eternal life to ALL whom you have given him. Titus 2:11 (ESV) For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for ALL people, 1 Corinthians 15:28 (ESV) When ALL things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put ALL things in subjection under him, that God may be ALL in ALL. Ephesians 1:9-10 (ESV) Making known to us the mystery of his will, according to his purpose, which he set forth in Christ as a plan for the fullness of time, to unite ALL things in him, things in heaven and things on earth. Romans 5:18 (ESV) Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for ALL men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for ALL men. “ALL” means “ALL.” “All ages” means “all ages.” Therefore, we can know that we will have eternal life. “All men” means “all men.” Therefore, we can know that ALL will have eternal life.
You are sadly mistaken sir in your false reasonings. Jesus is 100% clear-- Enter through the narrow gate, for cramped is the road that leads off into life, FEW are the ones finding it. For MANY have entered the broad and spacious path that leads to destruction. --- Best to believe Jesus.
 

atpollard

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And then Jesus tortures them forever, correct?
Torment is to be created for ONE (and only one) purpose, and to revolt against your creator and forever be condemned to a meaningless existence because you were created to be an eternal being. Torment is to finally understand how great is the love that God had and how great was the price that the Son paid ... and to hate THEM for it. Torment is an eternity of growing in despair and resolute defiance at a GOD that you will not worship and cannot approach to harm.

No, sir, it is not Jesus that torments them ... it is their own rejection of Jesus that torments them.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
-Romans 3​

God did not inflict this on them in life, they chose it for themselves.
What suggests that they changed their settled opposition in death?
 
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atpollard

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One of the main reasons for the persistence of the false teaching of eternal conscious torment is that of the blatant and incorrect interpretation of the Greek word “aion” in many of our Bible translations.
The Greek Orthodox Church, which has read, written and spoken the language since before it was a Church and before the Apostles penned the autographs, has a perfect understanding of their language (just as English Scholars have a perfect understanding of Shakespearean English) and these native Greek speaking Scholars agree with the modern translations that no error was made. Eternal Life and Eternal Torment mean exactly that ... ETERNAL (time without end, extending forward forever).

So everything that follows is a house of cards with no foundation ... it crumbles into a meaningless pile.
 

Patrick1966

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The Greek Orthodox Church, which has read, written and spoken the language since before it was a Church and before the Apostles penned the autographs, has a perfect understanding of their language (just as English Scholars have a perfect understanding of Shakespearean English) and these native Greek speaking Scholars agree with the modern translations that no error was made. Eternal Life and Eternal Torment mean exactly that ... ETERNAL (time without end, extending forward forever).

So everything that follows is a house of cards with no foundation ... it crumbles into a meaningless pile.

Then 1 Timothy 4:10, along with many other verses, are ALL false.
 
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Patrick1966

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Torment is to be created for ONE (and only one) purpose, and to revolt against your creator and forever be condemned to a meaningless existence because you were created to be an eternal being. Torment is to finally understand how great is the love that God had and how great was the price that the Son paid ... and to hate THEM for it. Torment is an eternity of growing in despair and resolute defiance at a GOD that you will not worship and cannot approach to harm.

No, sir, it is not Jesus that torments them ... it is their own rejection of Jesus that torments them.

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
“Their throats are open graves;
their tongues practice deceit.”
“The poison of vipers is on their lips.”
“Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness.”
“Their feet are swift to shed blood;
ruin and misery mark their ways,
and the way of peace they do not know.”
“There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
-Romans 3​

God did not inflict this on them in life, they chose it for themselves.
What suggests that they changed their settled opposition in death?

You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "torment". You also have a complete misunderstanding of God and his nature.
 
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Behold

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Therefore, we can know that ALL will have eternal life.


Oh fun.
Another Hell denying "click bait Trolling" Thread..... from : Patrick1966

What is this? #40?


A.) Only if you are born again, will you go to heaven.

Jesus said.....>"you must be born again".

If not....

Jesus said, "You will die in your sins".

End result??

A.) "Hell", then the Lake of Fire, that is the 2nd Death, that is eternity separated from God.

So, as Hell was Created for the Devil, it wont be a joy ride for eternity for the unbeliever., and never believe those who are trying to air condition Hell.....before they move in, Patrick1966.
You should end your obsessive fixation with these lying deceiver, asap.
 
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Patrick1966

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Oh fun.
Another Hell denying "click bait Trolling" Thread..... from : Patrick1966

Oh fun.
Another Hell denying "click bait Trolling" Thread..... from : Patrick1966

What is this? #40?


A.) Only if you are born again, will you go to heaven.

Jesus said.....>"you must be born again".

If not....

Jesus said, "You will die in your sins".

End result??

A.) "Hell", then the Lake of Fire, that is the 2nd Death, that is eternity separated from God.

So, as Hell was Created for the Devil, it wont be a joy ride for eternity for the unbeliever., and never believe those who are trying to air condition Hell.....before they move in, Patrick1966.
You should end your obsessive fixation with these lying deceiver, asap.

You think that God is a puny, incapable, unmerciful, vengeful, LOSER. You have my pity.
 

atpollard

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You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word "torment".
βασανίζω: [imperfect ἐβασάνιζον]; 1 aorist ἐβασάνισα; passive [present βασανίζομαι]; 1 aorist ἐβασανίσθην; 1 future βασανισθήσομαι; (βάσανος);
1. properly, to test (metals) by the touchstone.
2. to question by applying torture.
3. to torture (2 Macc. 7:13); hence,
4. universally, to vex with grievous pains (of body or mind), to torment: τινά, Matthew 8:29; Mark 5:7; Luke 8:28; 2 Peter 2:8; Revelation 11:10; passively, Matthew 8:6; Revelation 9:5; Revelation 20:10; of the pains of childbirth, Revelation 12:2 (cf. Anthol. 2, p. 205, Jacobs edition); with ἐν and the dative of the material in which one is tormented, Revelation 14:10.
5. Passive to be harassed, distressed; of those who at sea are struggling with a head wind, Mark 6:48; of a ship tossed by the waves, Matthew 14:24. (In Greek writings from Herodotus down. Often in O. T. Apocrypha.)
 

atpollard

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1 Timothy 4:10 [NLT] This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
  • Matthew 5:45 [NLT] In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.
  • Romans 9:22 [NLT] In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
  • “He has a general good-will to the eternal salvation of all men thus far that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He desires not the death of sinners; he is thus far the Saviour of all men that none are left in the same desperate condition that fallen angels are in. Now, if he be thus the Saviour of all men, we may hence infer that much more he will be the rewarder of those who seek and serve him; if he has such a good-will for all his creatures, much more will he provide well for those who are new creatures, who are born again. He is the Saviour of all men, but especially of those that believe; and the salvation he has in store for those that believe is sufficient to recompense them for all their services and sufferings.” - Matthew Henry (on 1 Timothy 4:10)
  • “What God intends for ALL, he actually gives to them that believe in Christ, who died for the sins of the world [1 John 2:2], and tasted death for every man [Hebrews 2:9]. As all have been purchased by his blood so all may believe; and consequently all may be saved. Those that perish, perish through their own fault.” - Clarke
 

atpollard

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Proverbs 14:12 [NKJV] There is a way that seems right to a man, But its end is the way of death.


John 3:14-21 [NKJV]
14 "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 "that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. 18 "He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 "And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 "But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
  • Two paths: believe in Him or don’t believe in Him.
  • Two options: not judged or already judged
Matthew 25:31-33, 46 [NKJV]
31 "When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 "All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides [his] sheep from the goats. 33 "And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. ... 46 "And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
  • Two destinies.
  • Both ETERNAL.
Your tantrum “The way of the Lord is not fair.” [Ezekiel 18:25] does not change the Word of God.
You have been told. Your blood is on your head and not mine.
 

Patrick1966

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1 Timothy 4:10 [NLT] This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
  • Matthew 5:45 [NLT] In that way, you will be acting as true children of your Father in heaven. For he gives his sunlight to both the evil and the good, and he sends rain on the just and the unjust alike.
  • Romans 9:22 [NLT] In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
  • “He has a general good-will to the eternal salvation of all men thus far that he is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. He desires not the death of sinners; he is thus far the Saviour of all men that none are left in the same desperate condition that fallen angels are in. Now, if he be thus the Saviour of all men, we may hence infer that much more he will be the rewarder of those who seek and serve him; if he has such a good-will for all his creatures, much more will he provide well for those who are new creatures, who are born again. He is the Saviour of all men, but especially of those that believe; and the salvation he has in store for those that believe is sufficient to recompense them for all their services and sufferings.” - Matthew Henry (on 1 Timothy 4:10)
  • “What God intends for ALL, he actually gives to them that believe in Christ, who died for the sins of the world [1 John 2:2], and tasted death for every man [Hebrews 2:9]. As all have been purchased by his blood so all may believe; and consequently all may be saved. Those that perish, perish through their own fault.” - Clarke

I love the scriptural response but I take it that you believe that people suffer for eternity in the LOF, correct?

What does this mean to you?

1 Corinthians 15:25 YLT
25 for it behoveth him to reign till he may have put all the enemies under his feet --
 
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atpollard

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I love the scriptural response but I take it that you believe that people suffer for eternity in the LOF, correct?
I am a bit reluctant to embrace the lake of fire. It is not a matter of personal repulsion, my opinions are irrelevant. I am wary of taking anything in Revelation (with as radical symbolism as a woman with celestial bodies being attacked by a dragon) and treating it as 100% literal. To apply that metric consistently, do we expect Jesus to have a sword sticking out of his mouth when he rules his kingdom with an iron scepter?

Luke 16 paints a clearer picture of a man condemned. There is nothing in that story to suggest it is hyperbolic symbolism and Jesus had no reason to make up a lie to make a point when he had knowledge of the truth (as Jesus told Nicodemus). There are multiple other references to “fire” in non-vision passages, so I am inclined to embrace the notion of “torment” and “fire” being somehow part of it, but they are also given in the context of a “trash dump” where unwanted waste is burned. So God may simply “burn his trash”.
 
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