So you are disagreeing with Eccliastes 9:5 then. 2 Timothy 3:16 (KJV):
(16) All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
A response to the false doctrine of eternal conscious torment (ECT)
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Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus said its better to cut off your hand and tear out your eye then to go to Hell.
Are you disagreeing with Him, again?
Hell was created for "the Devil and His angels".........it was created before ADAM was created.
After Adam sinned, he became a son of the Devil, by nature. "fallen". "Adamic"...
Jesus said...>"you are of YOUR FATHER the DEVIL".... and that is every person, who is not born again.
The Devils nature is SIN......and that is why a person is a SINNER.
Understand yet?
You have to be born again, to change Spiritual FATHERS.
This is why Jesus said...."you must be born again".
So, if you die as a Son of the Devil, then you wont be going to Heaven, and you wont be going to sleep;.
There is a place for you, = and Christ Rejectors (never born again) ALL died and went there today, and tomorrow.
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What do you mean, "again"! No I don't disagree with what Jesus said, although you're wrong, Jesus didn't say "than go to hell", he said:
Matthew 5:30 (WEB):
(30) If your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off, and throw it away from you. For it is more profitable for you that one of your members should perish, than for your whole body to be cast into Gehenna.
I won't bother to explain what that means because I'm sure you will have already read about it in this forum on multiple occasions. Suffice it to say, Gehenna is not "hell" (or sheol/hades).
Again Jesus did not mention hell, he said:
Matthew 25:41 (WEB):
(41) Then he will say also to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels;
"The eternal fire" is not hell (sheol/hades).
You obviously don't understand what Christ's 1,000 years reign will be for. Acts 3:19-21 (WEB):
(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,
(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,
(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.
(25) You are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘In your offspring will all the families of the earth be blessed.’
Behold
Well-Known Member
Well, a few things..
we know that our body goes into the graVe, so, it's not going to : Gehenna
How do you know?
Because when you die, if they dont bury your body, someone is going to cremate YOUR BODY.
So, now we see that the BIBLE verse is not to be read like a PHONE BOOK.
(95 % of Translations say "hell") In case you want to know.
Next..
There is Revelation 20:11, and there is HELL
There is Hell, and there is the Lake of Fire.
These are not the same.
And then there is the parable of the "rich man"
He said he was tormented in the flames and didnt want his family to end up there.
That is not the Lake of fire. = Yet.
= That's hell.
Behold
Well-Known Member
See that "Cross of Christ"?
See that "Blood of Jesus" and Death?
When did that Happen?
In the future?
So, if that is still to happen, then keep waiting for it.
If it happened 2000 yrs ago, then you should realize why, before you die.
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
29 results in a Bible search for the term "realm of the dead" in the NIV translation.
Do we suppose no one is conscious of it?
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead
Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Do we suppose no one is conscious of it?
BibleGateway - Keyword Search: realm of the dead
Ecclesiastes 9:10 NIV
Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might,
for in the realm of the dead, where you are going,
there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
You obviously don't know what the significance Gehenna is, so I'm going to have to help you understand it
. Gehenna was an actual place just outside Jerusalem, so obviously "our" body will not go there when you and I die (I see you live in Israel, but I still don't think you're likely to end up buried in Gehenna). Here's a comment from "Albert Barnes' Notes on the Bible" about Gehenna (for Matthew 5:22):Hell fire - The original of this is “the gehennah of fire.” The word gehenna, γέεννα geenna, commonly translated “hell,” is made up of two Hebrew words, and signifies the valley of Hinnom. This was formerly a pleasant valley near to Jerusalem, on the south. A small brook or torrent usually ran through it and partly encompassed the city. This valley the idolatrous Israelites devoted formerly to the horrid worship of Moloch, 2Ki_16:3; 2Ch_28:3. In that worship, the ancient Jewish writers inform us, the idol of Moloch was of brass, adorned with a royal crown, having the head of a calf, and his arms extended as if to embrace anyone. When they offered children to him they heated the statue within by a great fire, and when it was burning hot they put the miserable child into his arms, where it was soon consumed by the heat; and, in order that the cries of the child might not be heard, they made a great noise with drums and other instruments about the idol. These drums were called תּף toph, and hence a common name of the place was Tophet, תּפת Tophet, Jer_7:31-32.
After the return of the Jews from captivity, this place was held in such abhorrence that, by the example of Josiah 2Ki_23:10, it was made the place where to throw all the dead carcasses and filth of the city, and was not unfrequently the place of public executions. It became, therefore, extremely offensive; the sight was terrific; the air was polluted and pestilential; and to preserve it in any manner pure, it was necessary to keep fires continually burning there. The extreme loathsomeness of the place; the filth and putrefaction; the corruption of the atmosphere, and the lurid fires blazing by day and night, made it one of the most appalling and terrific objects with which a Jew was acquainted. It was called the gehenna of fire, and was the image which our Saviour often employed to denote the future punishment of the wicked.
In this verse it denotes a degree of suffering higher than the punishment inflicted by the “court of seventy,” or the Sanhedrin, and the whole verse may therefore mean, “He that hates his brother without a cause is guilty of a violation of the sixth commandment, and shall be punished with a severity similar to that inflicted by the court of judgment. He that shall suffer his passions to transport him still further, so that he shall make his brother an object of derision and contempt, shall be exposed to severer punishment, corresponding to that which the Sanhedrin (council) inflicts. But he who shall load his brother with odious appellations and abusive language shall incur the severest degree of punishment, represented by being burned alive in the horrid and awful valley of Hinnom.”
The amount, then, of this difficult and important verse is this: The Jews considered but one crime a violation of the sixth commandment, namely, actual murder, or willful, unlawful taking life. Jesus says that the commandment is much broader. It relates not only to the external act, but to the feelings and words. He specifies three forms of such violation:
1. Unjust anger.
2. Anger accompanied with an expression of contempt.
3. Anger, with an expression not only of contempt, but wickedness.
Among the Jews there were three degrees of condemnation: that by the “judgment,” the “council,” and the “fire of Hinnom.” Jesus says likewise there shall be grades of condemnation for the different ways of violating the sixth commandment. Not only murder shall be punished by God, but anger and contempt shall be regarded by him as a violation of the law, and punished according to the offence. As these offences were not actually cognizable before the Jewish tribunals, he must mean that they will be punished hereafter, and all these expressions therefore relate to degrees of punishment proportionate to crime in the future world - the world of justice and of woe.
Revelation 20:11 (WEB):
(11) I saw a great white throne, and him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. There was found no place for them.
I don't see a connection between God's throne and hades (hell), let alone with Gehenna.
Quite right.
That is also unconnected. There is no mention of Gehenna in that parable. It mentions the rich man being buried and then he is in Hades (the grave; the state of death).
It's a complicated parable that needs a lot of explaining, but I won't digress onto that.
Do you really think that I don't know why Jesus gave himself as a sacrifice?!
Acts 3:25 (WEB):
(25) You are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘In your offspring will all the families of the earth be blessed.’
How are ALL the families of the earth going to be blessed?
Revelation 20:6 (WEB):
(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.
What are the priestly duties of the resurrected Church, and in what manner will they be reigning, and with what aim?
Have faith in the effectiveness of God's plan of salvation for mankind.
2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):
(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Behold
Well-Known Member
That's your rabbit trail to chase.
Not mine.
"Hell is cast into the Lake of Fire".
I"ll stay with that verse.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Do you really think that I don't know why Jesus gave himself as a sacrifice?!
A.) For your sin.
In Hebrew it is poetry.
"Ecclesiastes is a Wisdom Literature book, which is written in a poetic style."
Google is ecclesiastes poetry
" The next section to be covered, the Poetical, is a much smaller section consisting of five books—Job, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and Song of Solomon."
5. The Poetical Books | Bible.org
Introduction The previous survey of the first seventeen books (Law and History), Genesis through Nehemiah, covered the whole history of the Old Testament. All the remaining books, Poetical and Prophetical, fit somewhere into the history of those seventeen books. The next section to be covered...
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6
Easy-to-Read Version
4 There is hope for those who are still alive—it does not matter who they are. But this saying is true:
A living dog is better than a dead lion.
5 The living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything. They have no more reward. People will soon forget them. 6 After people are dead, their love, hate, and jealousy are all gone. And they will never again share in what happens on earth.
Gehenna | eschatology
Britannica
Encyclopedia Britannica › ... › Religious Beliefs
Apr 18, 2023 — Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things).
"Gehenna is not Hades. Hades is a temporary place of the dead where only their souls exist. In Gehenna, wicked dead exist in both body and soul. The suffering in Gehenna is eternal while the suffering in Hades is temporal."
What Is Gehenna?
Another Greek word that is translated hell is "Gehenna." This word is used twelve times in the New Testament with Jesus employing it eleven times.
www.blueletterbible.org
What does Matthew 5:22 mean? - SalvationCall
Matthew 5:22 KJV But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to ...
salvationcall.com
Matthew 5:22 - Verse-by-Verse Bible Commentary - StudyLight.org
Matthew 5:22 - But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. on...
www.studylight.org
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Right.
I don't think it has anything to do with the afterlife.
I did search about it before I posted. Wikipedia states the structure of Ecclesiastes as:
- Title (1:1)
- Initial poem (1:2–11)
- I: Kohelet's investigation of life (1:12–6:9)
- II: Kohelet's conclusions (6:10–11:6)
- Introduction (6:10–12)
- A: Man cannot discover what is good for him to do (7:1–8:17)
- B: Man does not know what will come after him (9:1–11:6)
- Concluding poem (11:7–12:8)
- Epilogue (12:9–14)
St. SteVen
Well-Known Member
Well if you're not interested in finding out what God's Word to us actually means, that's your choice. As for me, I want to learn and understand the truth.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-12 (WEB):
(8) Then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will kill with the breath of his mouth, and destroy by the manifestation of his coming;
(9) even he whose coming is according to the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
(10) and with all deception of wickedness for those who are being lost, because they didn’t receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
(11) Because of this, God sends them a working of error, that they should believe a lie;
(12) that they all might be judged who didn’t believe the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2 Timothy 2:15
KJV:
(15) Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
ESV:(15) Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth.
So do you believe that that verse means that hell will be destroyed and no longer exist, or do you think that hell will live forever in burning fire and be tormented, or something else?
Ecclesiastes 9:4-10 (WEB):
(4) For to him who is joined with all the living there is hope; for a living dog is better than a dead lion.
(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
(7) Go your way—eat your bread with joy, and drink your wine with a merry heart; for God has already accepted your works.
(8) Let your garments be always white, and don’t let your head lack oil.
(9) Live joyfully with the wife whom you love all the days of your life of vanity, which he has given you under the sun, all your days of vanity: for that is your portion in life, and in your labor in which you labor under the sun.
(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.
In harmony with other verses of Scripture I believe that death is an unconscious state, like a deep sleep. Jesus described the dead as being asleep and that he had the power to wake them from that sleep - to raise them to life again.
Verse 4 says that it is better to be a living dog (they considered dogs to be the vilest of animals) than a dead lion ("The lion, which is mightiest among animals", Proverbs 30:30), i.e. it is better to be alive as the vilest of persons than to be the most noble and honourable person but dead. You can still have hope of living forever when you're alive, but there is nothing you can do when you're dead.
Verse 5 says that the dead don't know anything, consistent with having no thoughts - Psalms 146:4, "His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish." (Hebrew abad, meaning perish, destroyed, vanish, be lost.)
Verse 6 says that all passions such as love, hate and envy perish (because there are no thoughts).
Verse 10 says that there is no work, plans, knowledge or wisdom in Sheol - again because you have no conscious thoughts.
Revelation 20:13-14 (WEB):
(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.
(14) Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
The Cambridge Bible notes says:
death and hell] See Rev_6:8. Sheol, the Hebrew equivalent of Hades, seems not quite determined in meaning between the receptacle of the bodies of the dead and of their souls, but is sometimes translateable as “the grave.” Here it seems implied that those who died in the sea are not in Hades, as those who were buried are: but all, whether buried or unburied, are raised and judged.
Sheol/Hades/the grave/the sea is where the bodies of dead people end up, either decomposing to dust in the dust of the earth or in the sea. I think that there is a non-physcical part to us, therefore presumably something spritual in nature, that survives in an unconscious state, probably in another dimension that is not accessable to us as physical beings, and that in the resurrection (at the beginning of Christ's 1,000 year reign) God will place that "soul" in a new body, spiritual (Christians) or human (the rest of mankind). For those (humans) judged at the end of the 1,000 years to be not worthy of eternal life, their soul will die again, and will be destroyed so it can never be brought to life again. After that there will be no more death, so verse 14 says (using the symbolism of being thrown into a fire) that "death and Hades" are destroyed.
Jesus said, Matthew 10:28 (WEB):
(28) Don’t be afraid of those who kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul. Rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna.
1 Corinthians 15:25-26 (WEB):
(25) For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet.
(26) The last enemy that will be abolished is death. [Abolished or destroyed, done away with.]
Behold
Well-Known Member
That's physical death which will be destroyed.
The 2nd Death, is eternal, and its not physical......and it never ends.
Its literally the eternal life of the "damned"., because God's wrath REMAINS on them......
Its these.
John 3:36
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