A sign which shall be spoken against:

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VictoryinJesus

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Oh it's sooo refreshing!!!

Much love!


1 Corinthians 8:1-3 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.(refreshes) [2] And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. [3] But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

See…that hurt because the rules of language has always been something I struggle with but what is proposed to be the standard one has to know (the rules of language). instead of learning of Christ as what is needed, one has to become efficient in the rules of language which I lack.
 

Enoch111

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how do you know it isn’t a literal dragon?
That's easy. The Bible tells us what that dragon represents.

REVELATION 17: THE DRAGON (BEAST) EXPLAINED
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns...
9 And here
is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,
and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space...
12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

SEVEN HEADS = SEVEN MOUNTAINS = EITHER ROME OR JERUSALEM
TEN HORNS = TEN KINGS (RULERS) CONFEDERATE WITH THE ANTICHRIST

So this is the confederation of the Antichrist with ten rulers but only for a short time ("one hour" = short time). Eventually the Antichrist takes full control.
 

VictoryinJesus

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That's easy. The Bible tells us what that dragon represents.

REVELATION 17: THE DRAGON (BEAST) EXPLAINED
3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns...
9 And here
is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is,
and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space...
12
And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

SEVEN HEADS = SEVEN MOUNTAINS = EITHER ROME OR JERUSALEM
TEN HORNS = TEN KINGS (RULERS) CONFEDERATE WITH THE ANTICHRIST

So this is the confederation of the Antichrist with ten rulers but only for a short time ("one hour" = short time). Eventually the Antichrist takes full control.

Ok. Won’t dispute it but if what you want to talk about is the Antichrist, there are plenty of other threads about the Antichrist.
 

marks

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See…that hurt because the rules of language has always been something I struggle with but what is proposed to be the standard one has to know (the rules of language). instead of learning of Christ as what is needed, one has to become efficient in the rules of language which I lack.

I'm sorry, I don't mean this to be hurtful. But we do all use language, it's what we are doing here.

I'm not talking about our specific knowledge of all the particular rules of grammar, or like that.

We learn of Christ first through the Bible, and the Bible is language. The faster and looser we play with that language, the less accurate will be our knowledge and understandings.

Much love!
 

Ronald David Bruno

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okay but that is confusing to me because to be honest (to me) you “spiritualized” in the below, and then say “don’t do that, keep it literal” …so have you literally seen angels (messengers of God) descending and ascending, falling and rising again upon the Son of man?
No I didn't. I said that literally, one was a dream and the other a spiritual vision pertaining to the spiritual realm, where angels ascend and descend. They are invisible to us unless they materialize. The word spiritualize is to take something that should be understood literally and say it means symbolically something else. People assume since it is from God it has this hidden mystical meaning which we have to, like a puzzle, connect unrelated scriptures and join them together. That is what you are doing, connecting unrelated scriptures.
 

Ronald David Bruno

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The two passages which you have brought together have nothing in common.
I agree.

We know that there is no record of angels literally ascending and descending on Christ in the Gospels or in Acts.
How about after the 40 days in the desert? "Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." Matthew 4:11
Also angels came down and moved the stone from the tomb.
 

Enoch111

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How about after the 40 days in the desert? "Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him." Matthew 4:11
Also angels came down and moved the stone from the tomb.
That was not literally "ascending and descending" on the Son of Man. An angel also came to Gethsemane to strengthen Jesus.

I believe the "ascending" would apply to the ascension of Christ, while the "descending" would apply to the Second Coming of Christ, when He descends with clouds of saints and angels.
 

Waiting on him

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1 Corinthians 8:1-3 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.(refreshes) [2] And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know. [3] But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

See…that hurt because the rules of language has always been something I struggle with but what is proposed to be the standard one has to know (the rules of language). instead of learning of Christ as what is needed, one has to become efficient in the rules of language which I lack.

what of it was Him who connected them?
ive been on this forum for almost three years, and never placed one person on ignore. I just sent two individuals to the ignorant folder. You should try it….. very liberating.
 

robert derrick

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Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

consider “behold the angels of God ascending and descending upon this “ladder set upon the earth that reached to the top of heaven” with what Jesus Christ said to Nathanael “thou shall see greater things than these. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

consider who Jesus Christ is saying is this ladder set upon the earth …John 1:49-51 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. [50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. [51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Pay attention to “you shall see heaven open” Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (descending) and rising again (ascending) of many in Israel; and for a sign (greater things than these will you see) which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Opened)

this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. Ascending and descending upon the Son of man. For a sign which shall be spoken against …the fall and rising again of many.
The physical seed of promise fell, and only rise again as the true seed of promise, if they abide not in unbelief.

Likewise shall the true seed fall, if we abide not in the faith of Jesus.
 

farouk

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can think of One commonality they all have: Christ. Philippians 2:5-9 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Ephesians 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


You said: First let's see what John 1:51 possibly means: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


The commonality then is it is He is “for a sign which shall be spoken against” going further to say Luke 11:29-30 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. [30] For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, …so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;
@VictoryinJesus I love that Philippians 2 passage... :)
 
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robert derrick

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Spiritualizing scripture can go anywhere your imagination runs. Just take scripture literally, unless it implies to do otherwise. Angels descending and ascending, attending to Jesus or receiving us are angels ascending and descending ... simple as that.
Example of symbolic language: A dragon with seven heads and ten horns is not literal, that is symbolic and explained in scripture.
Maybe Nathanal witnessed the angels coming down to remove the stone from the tomb when Jesus rose from the dead? Maybe it is a future vision of Him during the Millennial Kingdom? Obviously the ladder is symbolic because angels fly.
I have read all sorts of symbolic intereptations that are such a stretch of the imagination. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture.
Here is a teaching by RC Sproul:
A primary principle of objective interpretation of Scripture is called the sensus literalis. Many times people have said to me, incredulously, “You don’t interpret the Bible literally, do you?” I never answer the question by saying, “Yes,” nor do I ever answer the question by saying, “No.” I always answer the question by saying, “Of course, what other way is there to interpret the Bible?” What is meant by sensus literalis is not that every text in the Scriptures is given a “woodenly literal” interpretation, but rather that we must interpret the Bible in the sense in which it is written. Parables are interpreted as parables, symbols as symbols, poetry as poetry, didactic literature as didactic literature, historical narrative as historical narrative, occasional letters as occasional letters. That principle of literal interpretation is the same principle we use to interpret any written source responsibly.
THE BIBLE IS TO BE INTERPRETED ACCORDING TO THE ORDINARY RULES OF LANGUAGE.
The principle of literal interpretation gives us another rule, namely that the Bible in one sense is to be read like any other book. Though the Bible is not like any other book in that it carries with it the authority of divine inspiration, nevertheless, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit over a written text does not turn verbs into nouns or nouns into verbs. No special, secret, arcane, esoteric meaning is poured into a text simply because it’s divinely inspired. Nor is there any such mystical ability we call “Holy Ghost Greek.” No, the Bible is to be interpreted according to the ordinary rules of language."
Thank you. I have seen Scripture spirited away into the lost realm of symbolism and done away with completely from it's simple reading by diving into the 'holy greek'.

Even as Paul speaking with great plainness of speech, so does God. We are to read what is written exactly as it is written, and with normal 'common sense' meaning applied to it:

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading. (Neh 8)
 

VictoryinJesus

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I'm sorry, I don't mean this to be hurtful. But we do all use language, it's what we are doing here.

I'm not talking about our specific knowledge of all the particular rules of grammar, or like that.

We learn of Christ first through the Bible, and the Bible is language. The faster and looser we play with that language, the less accurate will be our knowledge and understandings.

Much love!

it’s okay…I know you don’t mean to be hurtful. I waited a week to post this thread and ultimately probably shouldn’t have. He speaks to us all in different ways which I’ll never understand. My husband asked me today who am I trying to convince, you all or myself. My answer would be myself as I doubt so often and then He reveals something and I claim I’ll never doubt Him again, then I doubt again…especially when others disagree giving them the power to sway me. Basically reminding myself every day God is good.
 
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Waiting on him

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it’s okay…I know you don’t mean to be hurtful. I waited a week to post this thread and ultimately probably shouldn’t have. He speaks to us all in different ways which I’ll never understand. My husband asked me today who am I trying to convince, you all or myself. My answer would be myself as I doubt so often and then He reveals something and I claim I’ll never doubt Him again, then I doubt again…especially when others disagree giving them the power to sway me. Basically reminding myself every day God is good.
Psalm 118:8 KJV
[8] It is better to trust in the Lord than to put confidence in man.
 
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Waiting on him

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it’s okay…I know you don’t mean to be hurtful. I waited a week to post this thread and ultimately probably shouldn’t have. He speaks to us all in different ways which I’ll never understand. My husband asked me today who am I trying to convince, you all or myself. My answer would be myself as I doubt so often and then He reveals something and I claim I’ll never doubt Him again, then I doubt again…especially when others disagree giving them the power to sway me. Basically reminding myself every day God is good.
What was done was very subtle.
So be careful, there be snakes among the wheat fields
 
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VictoryinJesus

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No I didn't. I said that literally, one was a dream and the other a spiritual vision pertaining to the spiritual realm, where angels ascend and descend.

agree..a spiritual vision …where angels ascend and descend. Except (Imo) they descend before they ascend. And to me it does fit with the fall and rising again upon the Son of man, the sign spoken against. Why else did God include those angels that were cast out with the devil in the beginning nature that has “spoken against” Him, accusing Him, and that hates and despises Him …why?

They are invisible to us unless they materialize.

Again, agree invisible to us unless they materialize (are made manifest of God); Christ manifested in them. As in all creation waits for Romans 8:18-19 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

Again; For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. [19] For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Isaiah 40:3-5 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make straight in the desert a highway for our God. [4] Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain: [5] And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the Lord hath spoken it.

Isaiah 40:6 The voice said, Cry. And he said, What shall I cry? (CRY)All flesh is grass, and all the goodliness thereof is as the flower of the field:

But see every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low …
James 1:9-10 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: [10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.