A sign which shall be spoken against:

[VictoryinJesus]

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

consider “behold the angels of God ascending and descending upon this “ladder set upon the earth that reached to the top of heaven” with what Jesus Christ said to Nathanael “thou shall see greater things than these. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

consider who Jesus Christ is saying is this ladder set upon the earth …John 1:49-51 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. [50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. [51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Pay attention to “you shall see heaven open” Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (descending) and rising again (ascending) of many in Israel; and for a sign (greater things than these will you see) which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Opened)

this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. Ascending and descending upon the Son of man. For a sign which shall be spoken against …the fall and rising again of many.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

consider “behold the angels of God ascending and descending upon this “ladder set upon the earth that reached to the top of heaven” with what Jesus Christ said to Nathanael “thou shall see greater things than these. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

consider who Jesus Christ is saying is this ladder set upon the earth …John 1:49-51 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. [50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. [51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Pay attention to “you shall see heaven open” Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (descending) and rising again (ascending) of many in Israel; and for a sign (greater things than these will you see) which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Opened)

this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. Ascending and descending upon the Son of man. For a sign which shall be spoken against …the fall and rising again of many.

Simeon gave an accurate account of what we know has been absolutely fulfilled.

Those who reject Christ do fall and are ruined. Those who accept Him are raised and are saved from ruin.

I really do like the description of Christ as a sign . . . a lot is to be said about this.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

I really do like the description of Christ as a sign . . . a lot is to be said about this.

Galatians 5:11 And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.

Galatians 5:12-14 I would they were even cut off which trouble you. [13] For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another. [14] For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 24:8-12 All these are the beginning of sorrows. [9] Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. [10] And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. [11] And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. [12] And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

consider “behold the angels of God ascending and descending upon this “ladder set upon the earth that reached to the top of heaven” with what Jesus Christ said to Nathanael “thou shall see greater things than these. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

consider who Jesus Christ is saying is this ladder set upon the earth …John 1:49-51 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. [50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. [51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Pay attention to “you shall see heaven open” Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (descending) and rising again (ascending) of many in Israel; and for a sign (greater things than these will you see) which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Opened)

this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. Ascending and descending upon the Son of man. For a sign which shall be spoken against …the fall and rising again of many.

Daniel 2:20-22 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: [22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

 

[farouk]

Daniel 2:20-22 Daniel answered and said, Blessed be the name of God for ever and ever: for wisdom and might are his: [21] And he changeth the times and the seasons: he removeth kings, and setteth up kings: he giveth wisdom unto the wise, and knowledge to them that know understanding: [22] He revealeth the deep and secret things: he knoweth what is in the darkness, and the light dwelleth with him.

@VictoryinJesus Great passage there!

 

[Enoch111]

Those who reject Christ do fall and are ruined. Those who accept Him are raised and are saved from ruin

Christ is the Stone which the builders rejected. Not only did they stumble at this stone, but the Stone will break them and grind them to powder.

Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The Stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the Head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?... And whosoever shall fall on this Stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (Mt 21:42.44)

Furthermore Daniel tells us (Dan 2:34,35) that this Stone will grind all the kingdoms of the world to powder also: Thou sawest till that a Stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces. Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the Stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Genesis 28:12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

consider “behold the angels of God ascending and descending upon this “ladder set upon the earth that reached to the top of heaven” with what Jesus Christ said to Nathanael “thou shall see greater things than these. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.”

consider who Jesus Christ is saying is this ladder set upon the earth …John 1:49-51 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel. [50] Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee under the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. [51] And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

Pay attention to “you shall see heaven open” Luke 2:34-35 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall (descending) and rising again (ascending) of many in Israel; and for a sign (greater things than these will you see) which shall be spoken against; (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed. (Opened)

this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. Ascending and descending upon the Son of man. For a sign which shall be spoken against …the fall and rising again of many.

About Gen. 27:12 & John 1:51
It is a spiritual vision of the spiritual dimension which we dont physically see. We will all see heaven open when we die and we will see angels descend and get us, (receive our spirits) and ascend with them into heaven.
If you suddenly died in a car crash, (or however you die), your spirit would detach from your body and you would see your dead body lying there. Then angels would come and take you to heaven.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

About Gen. 27:12 & John 1:51
It is a spiritual vision of the spiritual dimension which we dont physically see. We will all see heaven open when we die and we will see angels descend and get us, (receive our spirits) and ascend with them into heaven.
If you suddenly died in a car crash, (or however you die), your spirit would detach from your body and you would see your dead body lying there. Then angels would come and take you to heaven.

see what you are saying and don’t dispute it, it could be possible all of heaven comes to greet us upon our departure from this place. But for me still the you will see greater things then these He told Nathanael could also point to the ascending and descending upon the Son of man Jesus Christ. The fall and rising again of First: Christ death and resurrection.

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

that Upon Him you will see greater things then these; for a sign which shall be spoken against. Again (in my opinion) spoken against because He brings down and makes Low and Lifts up again…like the verse humble yourselves you sinners and Christ will lift you up. Or when He told them they must drink of His blood and many became offended and left Him and walked with Him no more. It is offensive to flesh what is asked yea?


Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye ; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Just some thoughts but “upon the son of man” they descend and ascend, upon the son of man they fall and rise again…James 1:9-10 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: [10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Glory be to God who is able to make Low and who restores. Who is able to bring down that which is high, and lift up again that which is brought low?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

that Upon Him you will see greater things then these; for a sign which shall be spoken against.

that upon Him you will see greater things then these; for a sign which shall be spoken against. Suggest that Upon Him, upon His Name …you will see greater things then these; for a sign which shall be spoken against. That Upon Him, Upon His Name “Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 2 Timothy 2:19-20 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. [20] But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour.


2 Timothy 2:21 If a man therefore purge himself (upon Him, upon His Name)from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work.

 

[farouk]

see what you are saying and don’t dispute it, it could be possible all of heaven comes to greet us upon our departure from this place. But for me still the you will see greater things then these He told Nathanael could also point to the ascending and descending upon the Son of man Jesus Christ. The fall and rising again of First: Christ death and resurrection.

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

that Upon Him you will see greater things then these; for a sign which shall be spoken against. Again (in my opinion) spoken against because He brings down and makes Low and Lifts up again…like the verse humble yourselves you sinners and Christ will lift you up. Or when He told them they must drink of His blood and many became offended and left Him and walked with Him no more. It is offensive to flesh what is asked yea?


Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye ; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Just some thoughts but “upon the son of man” they descend and ascend, upon the son of man they fall and rise again…James 1:9-10 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: [10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Glory be to God who is able to make Low and who restores. Who is able to bring down that which is high, and lift up again that which is brought low?

@VictoryinJesus : Interesting that there needs to be a humbling and a making low before God exalts.

"For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted." (Luke 14.11)

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

see what you are saying and don’t dispute it, it could be possible all of heaven comes to greet us upon our departure from this place. But for me still the you will see greater things then these He told Nathanael could also point to the ascending and descending upon the Son of man Jesus Christ. The fall and rising again of First: Christ death and resurrection.

Luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

that Upon Him you will see greater things then these; for a sign which shall be spoken against. Again (in my opinion) spoken against because He brings down and makes Low and Lifts up…like the verse humble yourselves you sinners and Christ will lift you up. Or when He told them they must drink of His blood and many became offended and left Him to walk with Him no more. It is offensive to flesh what is asked yea?


Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; Romans 11:15 For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?

Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against; 1 Peter 4:14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye ; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

Just some thoughts but “upon the son of man” they descend and ascend, fall and rise again…James 1:9-10 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: [10] But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Glory be to God who is able to make Low and who restores. Who is able to bring down that which is high, and lift up again that which is brought low?

Spiritualizing scripture can go anywhere your imagination runs. Just take scripture literally, unless it implies to do otherwise. Angels descending and ascending, attending to Jesus or receiving us are angels ascending and descending ... simple as that.
Example of symbolic language: A dragon with seven heads and ten horns is not literal, that is symbolic and explained in scripture.
Maybe Nathanal witnessed the angels coming down to remove the stone from the tomb when Jesus rose from the dead? Maybe it is a future vision of Him during the Millennial Kingdom? Obviously the ladder is symbolic because angels fly.
I have read all sorts of symbolic intereptations that are such a stretch of the imagination. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture.
Here is a teaching by RC Sproul:
A primary principle of objective interpretation of Scripture is called the sensus literalis. Many times people have said to me, incredulously, “You don’t interpret the Bible literally, do you?” I never answer the question by saying, “Yes,” nor do I ever answer the question by saying, “No.” I always answer the question by saying, “Of course, what other way is there to interpret the Bible?” What is meant by sensus literalis is not that every text in the Scriptures is given a “woodenly literal” interpretation, but rather that we must interpret the Bible in the sense in which it is written. Parables are interpreted as parables, symbols as symbols, poetry as poetry, didactic literature as didactic literature, historical narrative as historical narrative, occasional letters as occasional letters. That principle of literal interpretation is the same principle we use to interpret any written source responsibly.
THE BIBLE IS TO BE INTERPRETED ACCORDING TO THE ORDINARY RULES OF LANGUAGE.
The principle of literal interpretation gives us another rule, namely that the Bible in one sense is to be read like any other book. Though the Bible is not like any other book in that it carries with it the authority of divine inspiration, nevertheless, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit over a written text does not turn verbs into nouns or nouns into verbs. No special, secret, arcane, esoteric meaning is poured into a text simply because it’s divinely inspired. Nor is there any such mystical ability we call “Holy Ghost Greek.” No, the Bible is to be interpreted according to the ordinary rules of language."

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Spiritualizing scripture can go anywhere your imagination runs. Just take scripture literally, inless it implies to do otherwise

okay but that is confusing to me because to be honest (to me) you “spiritualized” in the below, and then say “don’t do that, keep it literal” …so have you literally seen angels (messengers of God) descending and ascending, falling and rising again upon the Son of man?

About Gen. 27:12 & John 1:51
It is a spiritual vision of the spiritual dimension which we dont physically see. We will all see heaven open when we die and we will see angels descend and get us, (receive our spirits) and ascend with them into heaven.
If you suddenly died in a car crash, (or however you die), your spirit would detach from your body and you would see your dead body lying there. Then angels would come and take you to heaven.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Spiritualizing scripture can go anywhere your imagination runs. Just take scripture literally, inless it implies to do otherwise. Angels descending and ascending, attending to Jesus or receiving us are angels ascending and descending ... simple as that. A dragon with seven heads and ten horns is not literal. Maybe Nathanal witnessed the angels coming down to remove the stone feom the tomb when Jesus rose from the dead? Maybe it is a future vision of Him during the Millennial Kingdom. Obviously the ladder is symbolic because a fly. I have read all sorts of symbolic intereptations that are such a stretch of the imagination. Symbolism is usually explained in scripture.
Here is a teaching by RC Sproul:
A primary principle of objective interpretation of Scripture is called the sensus literalis. Many times people have said to me, incredulously, “You don’t interpret the Bible literally, do you?” I never answer the question by saying, “Yes,” nor do I ever answer the question by saying, “No.” I always answer the question by saying, “Of course, what other way is there to interpret the Bible?” What is meant by sensus literalis is not that every text in the Scriptures is given a “woodenly literal” interpretation, but rather that we must interpret the Bible in the sense in which it is written. Parables are interpreted as parables, symbols as symbols, poetry as poetry, didactic literature as didactic literature, historical narrative as historical narrative, occasional letters as occasional letters. That principle of literal interpretation is the same principle we use to interpret any written source responsibly.
THE BIBLE IS TO BE INTERPRETED ACCORDING TO THE ORDINARY RULES OF LANGUAGE.
The principle of literal interpretation gives us another rule, namely that the Bible in one sense is to be read like any other book. Though the Bible is not like any other book in that it carries with it the authority of divine inspiration, nevertheless, the inspiration of the Holy Spirit over a written text does not turn verbs into nouns or nouns into verbs. No special, secret, arcane, esoteric meaning is poured into a text simply because it’s divinely inspired. Nor is there any such mystical ability we call “Holy Ghost Greek.” No, the Bible is to be interpreted according to the ordinary rules of language."

also after considering it further …what is removed is the “upon Him” then it becomes angels descending and ascending upon us to carry us from death into Life. But that isn’t what it says but instead upon Him. We are not the sign spoken against but He is the sign spoken against. Do you see all that is Diminished and He is removed in “angels descending and ascending upon us” after a car crash who carry us from death into Life? It is upon Him any are carried from death into Life…Him being the focus of the descending and ascending and not us as in “upon Him” they descend and ascend.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

As we are abased and abound through Him. There is no “abounding”
Except through “abounding” in Christ Jesus. Galatians 5:10 I have confidence in you through the Lord, that ye will be none otherwise minded: but he that troubleth you shall bear his judgment, whosoever he be.

 

[Waiting on him]

also after considering it further …what is removed is the “upon Him” then it becomes angels descending and ascending upon us to carry us from death into Life. But that isn’t what it says but instead upon Him. We are not the sign spoken against but He is the sign spoken against. Do you see all that is Diminished and He is removed in “angels descending and ascending upon us” after a car crash who carry us from death into Life? It is upon Him any are carried from death into Life…Him being the focus of the descending and ascending and not us as in “upon Him” they descend and ascend.

Yes if all scripture is read from a Christ centered perspective the all scripture is received accurately. If read from a self centered perspective then all is received as carnality.

 

[farouk]

Yes if all scripture is read from a Christ centered perspective the all scripture is received accurately. If read from a self centered perspective then all is received as carnality.

Hi @Waiting on him I am reminded of John 3.30: "He must increase, but I must decrease."

 

[Enoch111]

this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel. Ascending and descending upon the Son of man. For a sign which shall be spoken against …the fall and rising again of many.

The two passages which you have brought together have nothing in common.

First let's see what John 1:51 possibly means: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

We know that there is no record of angels literally ascending and descending on Christ in the Gospels or in Acts. However we do know that when Christ ascended back to the Father a "cloud" received Him "out of their sight". Possibly that cloud was a metaphor for a cloud of angels who accompanied Christ back to Heaven. We also know that two angels then descended to earth and spoke with the apostles about the ascension of Christ. And that He would return in the same way as He had ascended. So this is probably what was meant in John 1:51. Heaven was opened to receive Christ at that time.

Now when we look at Luke 2:34, it is totally unrelated to this. What did Simeon mean when he said that Christ was "set for the fall and rising again of many"? The "fall" would mean the eternal damnation of those who rejected Christ. Those who stumbled at the Stone which the builders rejected. The "rising again" would be a reference to the resurrection of the saints and eventually the First Resurrection.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

The two passages which you have brought together have nothing in common.

First let's see what John 1:51 possibly means: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

can think of One commonality they all have: Christ. Philippians 2:5-9 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: [6] Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: [7] But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: [8] And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. [9] Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

Ephesians 4:9-10 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)


You said: First let's see what John 1:51 possibly means: And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
Mark 1:10 And straightway coming up out of the water, he saw the heavens opened, and the Spirit like a dove descending upon him:


The commonality then is it is He is “for a sign which shall be spoken against” going further to say Luke 11:29-30 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet. [30] For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, …so shall also the Son of man be to this generation.

luke 2:34 And Simeon blessed them, and said unto Mary his mother, Behold, this child is set for the fall and rising again of many in Israel; and for a sign which shall be spoken against;

 

[marks]

Example of symbolic language: A dragon with seven heads and ten horns is not literal, that is symbolic and explained in scripture.

Bless! Your! Heart!!!

 

[marks]

No, the Bible is to be interpreted according to the ordinary rules of language."

Oh it's sooo refreshing!!!

Much love!