A SURE SALVATION

[Ezra]

I hate to disappoint you but i dont think I will plan a future visit

come on there not that bad you just have know your area the copperhead is lazy once in while he will come out in the open.. most time he likes his privacy, rattler he will warn you they like the river hills a lot . the other 2 likes water .. this is a simple way of life. i am in southeast Ozarks. we have places no man seldom goes.. some places you might hear banjo music go the other way lol

 

[bdavidc]

Jesus is talking about entering the kingdom of heaven, which is the millennial kingdom in which believing Israel will reign as priests. He couldnt be speaking to anyone else.

In fact you are trying to talk your way around the words of Jesus, and you cannot do it without twisting them. Jesus did not stutter and He did not speak in riddles. He said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3. He did not say except a Jew. He did not say except believing Israel. He said a man. That sweeps the whole world in and knocks racial privilege flat on its back.

You say the kingdom is only a millennial reward for Israel, but Jesus said, “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out” ~Matthew 8:11–12. That is Jesus saying Gentiles are coming in and unbelieving Jews are going out. That wrecks your theory clean through.

When Jesus warned, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven” ~Matthew 7: 21, He was not handing out prize ribbons for a future reign. He was warning souls about entrance into God’s kingdom itself.

You keep saying Jesus could not be speaking to anyone else, but Jesus Himself preached, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” ~Mark 1:15. One message. One door. One way in.

If your position were true, you could quote one verse where Jesus limits the kingdom to Israel alone. You cannot, because He never did. The kingdom is not entered by bloodline, not reserved by nationality, and not postponed by theory. It is entered by repentance and new birth, just like Jesus said.

 

[bdavidc]

This idea stems not from Paul in this dispensation of grace but from Jesus saying.........[Matthew 7:20 KJV] "Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.".............Israel was to judge who were false prophets and brethren among them, This was not meant for us
Look at the Corinthian church's behavior, yet Paul did not say they were not saved

What you are really saying is that Christ’s words are dangerous unless they are reassigned to someone else. That is the issue beneath the argument. When Jesus says, “By their fruits ye shall know them” ~Matthew 7:20, you immediately move the weight of that sentence off the present conscience and place it onto Israel, as though truth itself were time bound and God’s moral reality had an expiration date.

Ask yourself why that move feels necessary. Is it because you believe Paul gave men permission to live carelessly under grace, or is it because Christ’s words cut too close to the bone? Jesus is not handing out instructions for Israel to play judge. He is exposing the nature of reality. Trees bear fruit according to what they are. That is not ecclesiology. That is creation truth. A corrupt tree does not occasionally bear corrupt fruit. It bears it because it is corrupt. Jesus is pressing men to face what they are, not to speculate about who goes where in history.

You appeal to Corinth as though Paul contradicted Christ, but Paul never did. Paul rebuked the Corinthians because they were behaving contrary to who they claimed to be. He did not soothe them. He warned them. He told them some were weak, sick, and even dead because God was dealing with them ~1 Corinthians 11:30. He told them plainly that those who live in unrighteousness will not inherit the kingdom of God ~1 Corinthians 6:9–10, and then he said, “such were some of you” ~1 Corinthians 6:11. Past tense. Change had occurred. Grace had done something.

Here is the question you keep avoiding. Why must every warning that exposes false faith be neutralized by moving it to Israel? Why must Jesus be prevented from searching the heart now? If fruit has no relevance to genuine faith today, then Christ’s words become historical artifacts rather than living truth, and the Word of God loses its power to examine the inward man ~Hebrews 4:12.

Paul did not deny fruit. Paul demanded it. He called it the fruit of the Spirit ~Galatians 5:22–23. He said faith works by love ~Galatians 5:6. He told believers to examine themselves ~2 Corinthians 13:5. None of that exists to make men comfortable. It exists to preserve the glory of God by exposing empty profession.

The real issue is motive. Are we protecting grace, or are we protecting men from having to face whether they belong to Christ at all? Is the aim God’s glory in a redeemed people who reflect His holiness, or is it man’s reassurance that nothing about his life needs to change?

Jesus’ words were not given to satisfy theological systems. They were spoken to bring men to truth. If Christ cannot warn the present conscience, then He is no longer Lord, only a historical voice we edit. And that, Doug, is not defending grace. That is diminishing the glory of God.

 

[Ezra]

its been a hardy discussion i had look scriptures up .in the end no one got stupid . unlike some Ive dealt with.

 

[Doug]

no discernment is a gift of the spirit. it is the spirit the spirit of truth that tells us things. your giving to Israel is a splinting of ways . if that be the case Jesus was solely given to Israel . he says He will save his people from there sins. . but we know john 3:16 tells different . as per the unction its for us there is a host of false teachers out there . Isiah in chapter 8 i think it is wrote if their testimony is not according. to the word there is no light in them . the word and spirit is our guide so i have to respectfully disagree

The spiritual gifts stopped with the completed Word of God.................
[1 Corinthians 13:8 KJV] "Charity never faileth: but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail; whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease; whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away."
[1 Corinthians 13:9 KJV] "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part."
[1 Corinthians 13:10 KJV] "But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away."

 

[Ezra]

The spiritual gifts stopped with the completed Word of God...

have to disagree

 

[Doug]

come on there not that bad you just have know your area the copperhead is lazy once in while he will come out in the open.. most time he likes his privacy, rattler he will warn you they like the river hills a lot . the other 2 likes water .. this is a simple way of life. i am in southeast Ozarks. we have places no man seldom goes.. some places you might hear banjo music go the other way lol

Ok you convinced me. Are those banjos like in the movie Deliverance?

 

[Ezra]

Ok you convinced me. Are those banjos like in the movie Deliverance?

depends where you go so what part the state are you in?

 

[Doug]

Jesus did not stutter and He did not speak in riddles.

He spoke in parables to hide the mysteries of the Davidic kingdom from the unbelievers. The unbelievers didnt know what he was teaching in the parables

 

[Doug]

He said, “Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God” ~John 3:3. He did not say except a Jew. He did not say except believing Israel. He said a man. That sweeps the whole world in and knocks racial privilege flat on its back.

Israel had to be born again. They couldnt think because they were descendants of Abraham they would be saved. Now Jesus in John 3:16 said whosoever could be saved not just Jews. Whosoever that believed on the name of Christ would be in the believing remnant of Israel. Believing Jews would reign with Christ in the kingdom. Believing Gentiles would also enter the kingdom

 

[Doug]

You say the kingdom is only a millennial reward for Israel, but Jesus said, “Many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out” ~Matthew 8:11–12. That is Jesus saying Gentiles are coming in and unbelieving Jews are going out. That wrecks your theory clean through.

I dont know where you think I said this. Nonetheless let me clarify. Both Jew and Gentile who believed on the name of Jesus became members of the church, the believing remnant of Israel, and would enter the earthly Davidic kingdom

 

[Doug]

You keep saying Jesus could not be speaking to anyone else, but Jesus Himself preached, “Repent ye, and believe the gospel” ~Mark 1:15. One message. One door. One way in.

The disciples were to go preach the gospel of the kingdom. They preached the Davidic kingdom was at hand

 

[Doug]

If your position were true, you could quote one verse where Jesus limits the kingdom to Israel alone. You cannot, because He never did. The kingdom is not entered by bloodline, not reserved by nationality, and not postponed by theory. It is entered by repentance and new birth, just like Jesus said.

God in Exodus promised Israel would be a kingdom of priests............[Exodus 19:6 KJV] "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."
Jesus appointed the kingdom to his twelve..........[Luke 22:29 KJV] "And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me;"
[Luke 22:30 KJV] "That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel."

Now Jeus said the Gentiles would enter the kingdom as well............[Matthew 25:34 KJV] "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

 

[Ezra]

God in Exodus promised Israel would be a kingdom of priests............[Exodus 19:6 KJV] "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

we that are saved are a royal priesthood

1 Peter 2
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New King James Version
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Colossians 3​

Our Inheritance Through Christ’s Blood​

2 Therefore, laying aside all malice, all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and all evil speaking, 2 as newborn babes, desire the pure milk of the word, that you may grow [a]thereby, 3 if indeed you have tasted that the Lord is gracious.

The Chosen Stone and His Chosen People​

4 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men, but chosen by God and precious, 5 you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 Therefore it is also contained in the Scripture,
“Behold, I lay in Zion
A chief cornerstone, elect, precious,
And he who believes on Him will by no means be put to shame.”

7 Therefore, to you who believe, He is precious; but to those who [b]are disobedient,
“The stone which the builders rejected
Has become the chief cornerstone,”

8 and
“A stone of stumbling
And a rock of offense.”
They stumble, being disobedient to the word, to which they also were appointed.

9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.


10 and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.

Character of the New Man Colossians 3​

12 Therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, put on tender mercies, kindness, humility, meekness, longsuffering;

 

[Doug]

What you are really saying is that Christ’s words are dangerous unless they are reassigned to someone else.

All scripture is profitable but I dont apply what is meant for Israel. I can apply what conforms to what was revealed to Paul by Jesus.

 

[Doug]

Ask yourself why that move feels necessary. Is it because you believe Paul gave men permission to live carelessly under grace,

I believe what Paul says about that..............
[Romans 6:1 KJV] "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?"
[Romans 6:2 KJV] "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"

 

[Doug]

Jesus is not handing out instructions for Israel to play judge. He is exposing the nature of reality. Trees bear fruit according to what they are. That is not ecclesiology. That is creation truth. A corrupt tree does not occasionally bear corrupt fruit. It bears it because it is corrupt. Jesus is pressing men to face what they are, not to speculate about who goes where in history.

Jesus was indeed instructing Israel to recognize false prophets and false brethren. Paul never tells us to look at the fruit of others

 

[Doug]

You appeal to Corinth as though Paul contradicted Christ, but Paul never did. Paul rebuked the Corinthians because they were behaving contrary to who they claimed to be. He did not soothe them. He warned them. He told them some were weak, sick, and even dead because God was dealing with them

I never said otherwise. I only ever said that they didnt lose salvation

 

[Doug]

Here is the question you keep avoiding. Why must every warning that exposes false faith be neutralized by moving it to Israel? Why must Jesus be prevented from searching the heart now? If fruit has no relevance to genuine faith today, then Christ’s words become historical artifacts rather than living truth, and the Word of God loses its power to examine the inward man ~Hebrews 4:12.

Jesus warned Israel to know them by their fruits because they were facing the tribulation if the nation believed. In the tribulation they would have to recognize false brethren and prophets
Paul also warned of false brethren.................[2 Corinthians 11:26 KJV] "[In] journeyings often, [in] perils of waters, [in] perils of robbers, [in] perils by [mine own] countrymen, [in] perils by the heathen, [in] perils in the city, [in] perils in the wilderness, [in] perils in the sea, [in] perils among false brethren;"
[Galatians 2:4 KJV] "And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:"

I acknowledge Heb 4:12 as does Paul.............
[2 Corinthians 4:2 KJV] "But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God."
[Ephesians 6:17 KJV] "And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:"

 

[Doug]

Paul did not deny fruit. Paul demanded it. He called it the fruit of the Spirit ~Galatians 5:22–23.

Thats right but not saying to judge others by their fruits