teamventure
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A Third Temple In Jerusalem.
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The Third Temple – Beit HaMikdesh
Ezekiel 40,41 & 42 Ezekiel measures the Temple and its precincts.
Ezekiel 43 to 48 Details of the Temple furnishings and the Land divisions, etc.
Nowhere does Ezekiel say that the Son of God [Jesus] is present in thse 8 chapters. Eze 43:4 says how the Glory of God will enter this 3rd Temple by the East gate, this will be the same 'Shekinah Glory' as in ancient times. Also in Ch 46 there is mentioned a 'Prince or Ruler', who makes sacrifices in this Temple. Jeremiah 30:21 Therefore this Temple will be built before the Return of Jesus, by the Lord's righteous people, who gather into the Land soon after the next prophesied event - the Lord's day of vengeance and wrath.
Ezekiel 40,41 & 42 Ezekiel measures the Temple and its precincts.
Ezekiel 43 to 48 Details of the Temple furnishings and the Land divisions, etc.
Nowhere does Ezekiel say that the Son of God [Jesus] is present in thse 8 chapters. Eze 43:4 says how the Glory of God will enter this 3rd Temple by the East gate, this will be the same 'Shekinah Glory' as in ancient times. Also in Ch 46 there is mentioned a 'Prince or Ruler', who makes sacrifices in this Temple. Jeremiah 30:21 Therefore this Temple will be built before the Return of Jesus, by the Lord's righteous people, who gather into the Land soon after the next prophesied event - the Lord's day of vengeance and wrath.
Haggai 2:6-9 In a little while, I shall shake the heavens, the earth, the sea and all the nations. I will fill this House with their treasures. This latter House will be greater than former. In this place, I shall grant prosperity and peace.
[The Second Temple was not greater than Solomon’s Temple]
Zechariah 1:16-17 These are the words of the Lord; I have returned to Jerusalem with compassion, My House is to be rebuilt there. My cities will again brim with prosperity, once again the Lord will comfort Zion and make Jerusalem the city of His choice.
2 Thess 2:3-4 The Return of Jesus cannot come until the man doomed to destruction is revealed and enthrones himself in Gods Temple, claiming to be God.
[What could be clearer than that? The Temple must be rebuilt before the Tribulation.]
Daniel 9:27....He will put a stop to the sacrifices and offerings, then will set up an abomination in the Holy place.
Malachi 3:1 I am about to send My messenger to clear a path before Me. Suddenly, the Lord, whom you seek, will come into His Temple. The messenger of the Covenant, whom you desire, will come to you.
Reference REB, NIV some verses abridged
Jewish Midrash sources say that the messenger is the Messiah ben Joseph, who will be the leader of the 10 tribes of Israel when they return to the Land and he will instigate the rebuilding of the Temple. Jeremiah 30:21
Further on, it is mentioned again in Haggai 2:21, the shaking and overthrowing of kings and how the Lord will break the power of the heathen realms. As we see in verses 6-9 this happens before the rebuilding and therefore, the regathering of His people.
It is likely that the Lord will use the next prophesied event, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, centred on the Middle East, to ‘break the power of the heathen realms’. This will enable His people, righteous Israel to settle into the Land of Greater Israel and build the Temple.
It is not possible, at present for the Jewish State of Israel to build anything on the Temple mount.
1/ They have handed control of the area to the Muslims.
2/ Any move to start construction would trigger a war.
Jewish Midrash sources say that the messenger is the Messiah ben Joseph, who will be the leader of the 10 tribes of Israel when they return to the Land and he will instigate the rebuilding of the Temple. Jeremiah 30:21
Further on, it is mentioned again in Haggai 2:21, the shaking and overthrowing of kings and how the Lord will break the power of the heathen realms. As we see in verses 6-9 this happens before the rebuilding and therefore, the regathering of His people.
It is likely that the Lord will use the next prophesied event, the Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, centred on the Middle East, to ‘break the power of the heathen realms’. This will enable His people, righteous Israel to settle into the Land of Greater Israel and build the Temple.
It is not possible, at present for the Jewish State of Israel to build anything on the Temple mount.
1/ They have handed control of the area to the Muslims.
2/ Any move to start construction would trigger a war.
3/ Orthodox Jews, especially Ultra Orthodox, are forbidden or dare not go onto the Mount, for fear of stepping onto the place of the Holy of Holies.
4/ Atheist Jews [half the population] are not interested or don’t want a Temple.
Zechariah 6:15 Men from far away will come and work on the rebuilding of Y’hovah’s Temple. This will come about if you listen to and obey your God.
Some might be thinking, "Just how is orthodox Judaism involved in the Preterist doctrines, since it's supposedly a Christian doctrine?"
The Full Preterism idea is Not a Christian doctrine from The New Testament, nor of any part of God's Word. It is simply a doctrine to cause deceptions upon Christians who believe it.
When the orthodox Jews speak of the temple they plan to rebuild today, they refer to Bible Scripture about Ezekiel's Temple. Revelation 11:1-2 reveals they are going to build 'their' temple prior to Christ's return, and that's just it. It will NOT be the prophesied Ezekiel Temple which only Christ Jesus will build at His return.
That Rev.11:1-2 event of those who worship 'inside' that temple, with the outer court being 'tread' upon by the Gentiles for 42 months, is within the time frame of the 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet period. Per our Lord Jesus, His return is on the later 3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet period of Rev.11.
So our Lord Jesus has well marked the event of a temple in Jerusalem being built for the tribulation period with those who worship inside it, and Gentiles treading its outer courts for 42 months, the same 42 months period given in Rev.13 with the dragon given to rule over the saints.
What does that Scripture show us who will come to build 'their' temple, and claim it as Ezekiel's Temple? The pseudo Christ, a false messiah.
This is why Apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2:4 about a false one coming to exalt himself above ALL that is called God or all that is worshipped. And he is to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
II Th 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
This is why those orthodox Jews are inviting Christianity to take part in helping to fund and support the rebuilding of 'their' temple today. It's in prep for the coming of a pseudo Christ to proclaim himself as God, to sit in it, and show himself that he is God. Because that event will be the greatest deception to ever come upon this earth, Paul called it the "strong delusion" in 2 Thess.2. That is the "lie" he was foretelling us of in that Scripture.
So ideas of Preterism, like the future "thousand years" reign of Christ on earth is metaphorical only, or that Christ's second coming is metaphorical only, or that Christ's Kingdom has already come on earth today, ALL of those ideas serve to deceive as part of that "strong delusion" lie Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus warned us about.
The Full Preterism idea is Not a Christian doctrine from The New Testament, nor of any part of God's Word. It is simply a doctrine to cause deceptions upon Christians who believe it.
When the orthodox Jews speak of the temple they plan to rebuild today, they refer to Bible Scripture about Ezekiel's Temple. Revelation 11:1-2 reveals they are going to build 'their' temple prior to Christ's return, and that's just it. It will NOT be the prophesied Ezekiel Temple which only Christ Jesus will build at His return.
That Rev.11:1-2 event of those who worship 'inside' that temple, with the outer court being 'tread' upon by the Gentiles for 42 months, is within the time frame of the 2nd Woe - 6th Trumpet period. Per our Lord Jesus, His return is on the later 3rd Woe - 7th Trumpet period of Rev.11.
So our Lord Jesus has well marked the event of a temple in Jerusalem being built for the tribulation period with those who worship inside it, and Gentiles treading its outer courts for 42 months, the same 42 months period given in Rev.13 with the dragon given to rule over the saints.
What does that Scripture show us who will come to build 'their' temple, and claim it as Ezekiel's Temple? The pseudo Christ, a false messiah.
This is why Apostle Paul mentioned in 2 Thess.2:4 about a false one coming to exalt himself above ALL that is called God or all that is worshipped. And he is to sit in the Temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
II Th 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the Temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
This is why those orthodox Jews are inviting Christianity to take part in helping to fund and support the rebuilding of 'their' temple today. It's in prep for the coming of a pseudo Christ to proclaim himself as God, to sit in it, and show himself that he is God. Because that event will be the greatest deception to ever come upon this earth, Paul called it the "strong delusion" in 2 Thess.2. That is the "lie" he was foretelling us of in that Scripture.
So ideas of Preterism, like the future "thousand years" reign of Christ on earth is metaphorical only, or that Christ's second coming is metaphorical only, or that Christ's Kingdom has already come on earth today, ALL of those ideas serve to deceive as part of that "strong delusion" lie Apostle Paul and our Lord Jesus warned us about.
teamventure
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- Sep 6, 2011
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revturmoil
New Member
I doubt that you're going to believe what I'm going to say. After all, you don't believe or understand (or are in denial of) how the word all is correctly used in scripture. So I have my doubts you'll see the difference about the words God and temple.
First of all. The word for temple used in 2 Thes. 2 is the word 'naos'.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
That word is only used to describe the "holy of holies' when it is distinguished from the whole temple. The holy of holies isn't indicated here at all. There's no reason to assume that 2 Thes. 2:4 is refering to the Holy of Holies because the text has nothing to do with the Jews or inner sanctuary because the direct attention of the text is related to the man of sin.
naos...
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G3485&t=KJV
This word is the one used in Acts that describes the shrine of Diana that the idol stood in.
Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
Paul had about 20 words to chose from in the text. If he definitely wanted to indicate God's Holy Temple, he would have used a different word and very likely this one.
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
But instead he used this one.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Here are the words he could have used.
http://www.eliyah.co...&isindex=temple
The word God in 2 Thes. 2 is theos. The first or primary meaning of it is that of a god or goddess, and used in the name of deities.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2316&t=KJV
G2316
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
B) Christ, the second person of the trinity
c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
a) refers to the things of God
B) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
a) God's representative or viceregent
1) of magistrates and judges
'Theos' is also similar to 'atheos' which means
112. atheos ath'-eh-os from 1 (as a negative particle) and 2316; godless:--without God.
Paul had about 50 words to choose from and chose the one that is used of pagan gods and magistrates when he described "the temple of God.".
http://www.eliyah.co...con&isindex=God
Thayers quotes about the word 'theos', "A general appellation of deities or divivities." Thayer also says the word " is a generic term used by heathen writers.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2316&t=KJV
The word is used of the only true God when the article is used like in Mt.3:9, Lk. 2:13, Acts 2:11,
Like here...Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (the article is not used in 2 Thes. 2:4)
If Paul definitely wanted to indicate God's Holy Temple he would not have used the word 'theos' which is typically used for pagan gods. And he would not have the word 'naos' which is used used for pagan shrines!
I use to believe many of the things you do. I use to believe in the RRE, a peace treaty with Israel, a global empire and united global religion of the beast, and this issue... etc. etc.
But I've changed my mind after studying them for myself from the words used in the original language. I doubt you'll ever change your mind because you would have to admit on a public forum that you've been wrong.
You obviously don't go into the depth I do studying these things. Why would you want to do that? It would debunk what you believe and you already have this all figured out anyway! You have fallen for and adhere to the teachings of the "prophecy experts."
First of all. The word for temple used in 2 Thes. 2 is the word 'naos'.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
That word is only used to describe the "holy of holies' when it is distinguished from the whole temple. The holy of holies isn't indicated here at all. There's no reason to assume that 2 Thes. 2:4 is refering to the Holy of Holies because the text has nothing to do with the Jews or inner sanctuary because the direct attention of the text is related to the man of sin.
naos...
1) used of the temple at Jerusalem, but only of the sacred edifice (or sanctuary) itself, consisting of the Holy place and the Holy of Holies (in classical Greek it is used of the sanctuary or cell of the temple, where the image of the god was placed which is distinguished from the whole enclosure)
2) any heathen temple or shrine
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G3485&t=KJV
This word is the one used in Acts that describes the shrine of Diana that the idol stood in.
Acts 19:24 For a certain man named Demetrius, a silversmith, which made silver shrines for Diana, brought no small gain unto the craftsmen;
Paul had about 20 words to chose from in the text. If he definitely wanted to indicate God's Holy Temple, he would have used a different word and very likely this one.
2411. hieron hee-er-on' neuter of 2413; a sacred place, i.e. the entire precincts (whereas 3485 denotes the central sanctuary itself) of the Temple (at Jerusalem or elsewhere):--temple.
But instead he used this one.
3485. naos nah-os' from a primary naio (to dwell); a fane, shrine, temple :--shrine, temple.
Here are the words he could have used.
http://www.eliyah.co...&isindex=temple
The word God in 2 Thes. 2 is theos. The first or primary meaning of it is that of a god or goddess, and used in the name of deities.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2316&t=KJV
G2316
1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities
2) the Godhead, trinity
a) God the Father, the first person in the trinity
B) Christ, the second person of the trinity
c) Holy Spirit, the third person in the trinity
3) spoken of the only and true God
a) refers to the things of God
B) his counsels, interests, things due to him
4) whatever can in any respect be likened unto God, or resemble him in any way
a) God's representative or viceregent
1) of magistrates and judges
'Theos' is also similar to 'atheos' which means
112. atheos ath'-eh-os from 1 (as a negative particle) and 2316; godless:--without God.
Paul had about 50 words to choose from and chose the one that is used of pagan gods and magistrates when he described "the temple of God.".
http://www.eliyah.co...con&isindex=God
Thayers quotes about the word 'theos', "A general appellation of deities or divivities." Thayer also says the word " is a generic term used by heathen writers.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G2316&t=KJV
The word is used of the only true God when the article is used like in Mt.3:9, Lk. 2:13, Acts 2:11,
Like here...Luke 2:13 And suddenly there was with the angel a multitude of the heavenly host praising God, and saying,
14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. (the article is not used in 2 Thes. 2:4)
If Paul definitely wanted to indicate God's Holy Temple he would not have used the word 'theos' which is typically used for pagan gods. And he would not have the word 'naos' which is used used for pagan shrines!
I use to believe many of the things you do. I use to believe in the RRE, a peace treaty with Israel, a global empire and united global religion of the beast, and this issue... etc. etc.
But I've changed my mind after studying them for myself from the words used in the original language. I doubt you'll ever change your mind because you would have to admit on a public forum that you've been wrong.
You obviously don't go into the depth I do studying these things. Why would you want to do that? It would debunk what you believe and you already have this all figured out anyway! You have fallen for and adhere to the teachings of the "prophecy experts."
Kaoticprofit,
99% of the time that "God" appears in the KJV New Testament, it is the Greek word 'theos', or some form of 'theos'. Otherwise it is Greek 'kurios' (Lord) or Christos (Christ).
It's because the only word for the concept of God the Greeks had in their language was 'theos'. Thus Apostle Paul used it constantly when speaking of The God of Israel, our Heavenly Father.
Theos is where our English word 'theology' comes from, even in the Greek with 'atheist' pointing to disbelief in God.
It's usage throughout the NT Greek does not prove what you say about Paul's usage of it in 2 Thess.2:4, which is why Paul also used 'theos' in 2 Thess.2:11, 13, and 16 to point to our Heavenly Father.
Greek 'naos' (temple) is also the Greek word often used in The Gospel Books for the Jerusalem Temple (like Mark 15:38 for one of many NT examples, especially in Matthew). It is also... the Greek word used for Jesus' body when He spoke of destroying it and raising it again, and the word Paul used in Acts 17:24 which is definitely about a literal structure on earth, and he also used it for Christ's many-membered body, His Church. It is also the word used for God's Temple in Heaven per the Book of Revelation, and in Revelation 11:1-2 about the temple John was given a reed to measure.
All one need do is look in any Greek Lexicon to discover this. Greek 'theos' and 'naos' cannot be singled out to point only to pagan Greek culture, for they are Greek words also used by the NT writers to point to God, the spiritual concept of a temple, and the literal structure of a temple on earth, like the Jerusalem Temple that stood at Jesus' first coming, and also to God's Temple in Heaven.
You're attempt to persuade against the idea of the building of a literal temple in Jerusalem for the last days has blinded you away from the common usage of those Greek terms in the NT Scripture.
99% of the time that "God" appears in the KJV New Testament, it is the Greek word 'theos', or some form of 'theos'. Otherwise it is Greek 'kurios' (Lord) or Christos (Christ).
It's because the only word for the concept of God the Greeks had in their language was 'theos'. Thus Apostle Paul used it constantly when speaking of The God of Israel, our Heavenly Father.
Theos is where our English word 'theology' comes from, even in the Greek with 'atheist' pointing to disbelief in God.
It's usage throughout the NT Greek does not prove what you say about Paul's usage of it in 2 Thess.2:4, which is why Paul also used 'theos' in 2 Thess.2:11, 13, and 16 to point to our Heavenly Father.
Greek 'naos' (temple) is also the Greek word often used in The Gospel Books for the Jerusalem Temple (like Mark 15:38 for one of many NT examples, especially in Matthew). It is also... the Greek word used for Jesus' body when He spoke of destroying it and raising it again, and the word Paul used in Acts 17:24 which is definitely about a literal structure on earth, and he also used it for Christ's many-membered body, His Church. It is also the word used for God's Temple in Heaven per the Book of Revelation, and in Revelation 11:1-2 about the temple John was given a reed to measure.
All one need do is look in any Greek Lexicon to discover this. Greek 'theos' and 'naos' cannot be singled out to point only to pagan Greek culture, for they are Greek words also used by the NT writers to point to God, the spiritual concept of a temple, and the literal structure of a temple on earth, like the Jerusalem Temple that stood at Jesus' first coming, and also to God's Temple in Heaven.
You're attempt to persuade against the idea of the building of a literal temple in Jerusalem for the last days has blinded you away from the common usage of those Greek terms in the NT Scripture.
II Th 2:4
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
So how... can that be pointing to a fake temple, and also to God's true Temple on earth per history at the same time, for Paul is actually presenting it both ways?
It's like I showed before, those who intend to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem for the last days and start up Old Covenant worship and sacrifices again are treating the temple they intend to build in Jerusalem as Ezekiel's Temple. They are proclaiming it as God's Temple.
Ezekiel's Temple is to be a literal Temple on earth that is to be built just for Christ's Millennial reign (Ezek.40-47). And per Zechariah 6:12-13, Christ is Who is to build it when He comes (Christ Jesus is That BRANCH).
This is how the false one coming will proclaim the fake as the True. It's because he also will be a fake Christ (pseudochristos per Matt.24:24), proclaiming himself to be The True God. The whole concept of that fake is based on Satan's original sin of coveting God's Throne for himself. And Jerusalem on earth is where God said He has chosen to dwell forever as His Rest (Psalms 132).
This is how the majority of orthodox unbelieving Jews will be fooled in the last days. The false prophets among them that crept in long ago are preparing them to bow not to Messiah Jesus Christ, but to a fake messiah that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles made us Christians aware of per New Testament Scripture. Orthodox Jews don't heed New Testament Scripture, nor what our Lord Jesus foretold us, because they have still yet to accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah). They are still heeding the Old Covenant ways, and believe that's still what they are to follow. And to follow that requires the establishing of a temple in Jerusalem with sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood.
We Christians are not to take part in what they're doing, for Christ Jesus already came to give us The New Covenant through His Blood shed on the cross for us. This is why the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 69 A.D., and the nation state of Israel (house of Judah - Jews) ended until 1948.
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
(KJV)
So how... can that be pointing to a fake temple, and also to God's true Temple on earth per history at the same time, for Paul is actually presenting it both ways?
It's like I showed before, those who intend to rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem for the last days and start up Old Covenant worship and sacrifices again are treating the temple they intend to build in Jerusalem as Ezekiel's Temple. They are proclaiming it as God's Temple.
Ezekiel's Temple is to be a literal Temple on earth that is to be built just for Christ's Millennial reign (Ezek.40-47). And per Zechariah 6:12-13, Christ is Who is to build it when He comes (Christ Jesus is That BRANCH).
This is how the false one coming will proclaim the fake as the True. It's because he also will be a fake Christ (pseudochristos per Matt.24:24), proclaiming himself to be The True God. The whole concept of that fake is based on Satan's original sin of coveting God's Throne for himself. And Jerusalem on earth is where God said He has chosen to dwell forever as His Rest (Psalms 132).
This is how the majority of orthodox unbelieving Jews will be fooled in the last days. The false prophets among them that crept in long ago are preparing them to bow not to Messiah Jesus Christ, but to a fake messiah that our Lord Jesus and His Apostles made us Christians aware of per New Testament Scripture. Orthodox Jews don't heed New Testament Scripture, nor what our Lord Jesus foretold us, because they have still yet to accept Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ (Messiah). They are still heeding the Old Covenant ways, and believe that's still what they are to follow. And to follow that requires the establishing of a temple in Jerusalem with sacrifices and the Levitical priesthood.
We Christians are not to take part in what they're doing, for Christ Jesus already came to give us The New Covenant through His Blood shed on the cross for us. This is why the 2nd Temple in Jerusalem was destroyed by the Romans in 69 A.D., and the nation state of Israel (house of Judah - Jews) ended until 1948.
revturmoil
New Member
What Jesus and Paul are pointing to is an end-time Islamic shrine that 'sits upon' God's Temple "area."
Mt. 24:15 the holy place is the surrounding area.
http://www.bluelette...ngs=G5117&t=KJV
If Jesus or the author of Acts wanted to indicate the "Holy of Holies" in Mathew they would have likely used the word...
2665. katapetasma kat-ap-et'-as-mah from a compound of 2596 and a congener of 4072; something spread thoroughly, i.e. (specially) the door screen
(to the Most Holy Place) in the Jewish Temple:--vail.
http://www.eliyah.co...on&isindex=2665
The holy place in Mathew 24:15 is not the Holy of Holies but simply the location of and surrounding area of it!
1) place, any portion or space marked off, as it were from surrounding space
a) an inhabited place, as a city, village, district
There were better choices of words that Jesus and Paul could have used to describe the inner sanctuary. But rather the words describe the surrounding temple area and the heathen shrine of a false god where the abomination will authenticate himself.
There was probably no better choice of words to describe the ' Islamic shrine' that today "sits upon"..... "The Holy of Holies."
The same is true about the word place. Look at all the words for place and casually read through them.
http://www.eliyah.co...n&isindex=place
There was no better choice of words to use in this instance to describe the entire temple area rather than the Holy of Holies.
AND!
The word for God used in 2 Thes. 2 is the one whose primary meaning is a god or a goddess. So all these things add up and need to be considered in our interpretation of this temple issue. I say a temple doen't need rebuilding to fulfill the prophecies Jesus or Paul concerning the abomination and the temple. ONE ALREADY SITS THERE! You have your conclusions and I have mine. All I can do is show you why I believe what I believe.
revturmoil
New Member
Look at this too. Bold is mine.
Date: October 14, 1998
URL: http://philologos.or.../files/w008.htm
'on a wing [of the temple]'
Daniel 9:27 according to the King James Version reads:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The area I would like to concentrate on is the use of the word "overspreading" in this verse and the way other versions translate this area to mean "a wing."
The disputed word is "kanaph," which according to Strong's means:
3671 kanaph; from 3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle:--+ bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], x flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, x quarters, skirt, x sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
3670 kanaph; a primitive root; properly to project laterally, i.e. probably (reflexively) to withdraw:--be removed.
Other Bible versions translate this passage as follows:
Daniel 9:27
NIV
He will confirm a covenant with many for one `seven.' In the middle of the `seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
RSV
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.
YLT
And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.
NASB
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
Literal Translation of the Holy Bible
And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a wing of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.
NKJV
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.
Good News Bible in Today's English Version
That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him.
ASV
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27 ultimately speaks of Satan setting something up on a wing of the temple/abomination. Is this where his "throne/altar" is? In Matthew 4:5 it says "Then the devil taketh him [Jesus] up into the holy city [Jerusalem], and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple." If you look up the word "pinnacle" you find this:
4419 pterugion; neuter of a presumed derivative of 4420; a winglet, i.e. (figuratively) extremity (top corner):--pinnacle.
4420 pterux; from a derivative of 4072 (meaning a feather); a wing:--wing.
Could these both be referring to the same place? Would Satan's throne be so close to the Holy of Holies?
Date: October 14, 1998
URL: http://philologos.or.../files/w008.htm
'on a wing [of the temple]'
Daniel 9:27 according to the King James Version reads:
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The area I would like to concentrate on is the use of the word "overspreading" in this verse and the way other versions translate this area to mean "a wing."
The disputed word is "kanaph," which according to Strong's means:
3671 kanaph; from 3670; an edge or extremity; specifically (of a bird or army) a wing, (of a garment or bed-clothing) a flap, (of the earth) a quarter, (of a building) a pinnacle:--+ bird, border, corner, end, feather [-ed], x flying, + (one an-) other, overspreading, x quarters, skirt, x sort, uttermost part, wing ([-ed]).
3670 kanaph; a primitive root; properly to project laterally, i.e. probably (reflexively) to withdraw:--be removed.
Other Bible versions translate this passage as follows:
Daniel 9:27
NIV
He will confirm a covenant with many for one `seven.' In the middle of the `seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.
RSV
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.
YLT
And he hath strengthened a covenant with many -- one week, and [in] the midst of the week he causeth sacrifice and present to cease, and by the wing of abominations he is making desolate, even till the consummation, and that which is determined is poured on the desolate one.
NASB
And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.
Literal Translation of the Holy Bible
And he shall confirm a covenant with the many for one week. And in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the offering to cease. And on a wing of the altar will be abominations that desolate, even until the end. And that which was decreed shall pour out on the desolator.
NKJV
Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate.
Good News Bible in Today's English Version
That ruler will have a firm agreement with many people for seven years, and when half this time is past, he will put an end to sacrifices and offerings. The Awful Horror will be placed on the highest point of the Temple and will remain there until the one who put it there meets the end which God has prepared for him.
ASV
And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate.
Daniel 9:27 ultimately speaks of Satan setting something up on a wing of the temple/abomination. Is this where his "throne/altar" is? In Matthew 4:5 it says "Then the devil taketh him [Jesus] up into the holy city [Jerusalem], and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple." If you look up the word "pinnacle" you find this:
4419 pterugion; neuter of a presumed derivative of 4420; a winglet, i.e. (figuratively) extremity (top corner):--pinnacle.
4420 pterux; from a derivative of 4072 (meaning a feather); a wing:--wing.
Could these both be referring to the same place? Would Satan's throne be so close to the Holy of Holies?
Signs of Islamic leaders support for rebuilding the Jewish Temple...
"Muslim leader wants Temple rebuilt--
Posted: August,2009--
By Joel Richardson--
© 2009
In a historically unprecedented development, a famous Turkish Muslim leader and a prominent group of Israeli rabbis have joined together on one of their declared goals, to rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.-- Adnan Oktar, who uses the pen name of Harun Yahya, is a controversial but highly influential Muslim intellectual and author with over 65 million of his books in circulation worldwide.-- Oktar recently met with three representatives from the re-established Jewish Sanhedrin, a group of 71 Orthodox rabbis and scholars from Israel, to discuss how religious Muslims, Jews and Christians can work together.
The objectives of the alliance include waging a joint intellectual and spiritual battle against the worldwide growing tide of irreligiousness, unbelief and immorality. But even more unusual is their agreement with regard to the need to rebuild the Jewish Temple, a structure Oktar refers to as the "Masjid (Mosque)" or the "Palace of Solomon." An official statement about the meeting has been published on the Sanhedrin's website. Concluding the statement is the following call:"
From: http://decisionpointnetwork.blogspot.com/2009/08/muslim-leader-wants-temple-rebuilt.html
Just as in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, there were foreigners in the land that were against the building of the 2nd temple and they tried to stop it. But its building continued unto completion. Our Heavenly Father is in control, and He can influence the minds of Israel's enemies.
A MOOD SWING is already moving among Islamic leaders towards the planned international peace for Jerusalem...
"Controversial Imams Enter Dialogue with Rabbis
By Eric J. Greenberg
Some of the most influential and controversial Islamic clerics in the Middle East are participating in a plan to launch what organizers describe as the first joint-training institute to produce future moderate sheiks, rabbis, priests and ministers.
The unprecedented proposal to create a summer religious institute – where young seminarians from the three [Abrahamic] faiths would study together to break down barriers and foster positive relationships – was unveiled this week during a nine day “Summit for Interfaith Respect” held in New York City and in Boston.
Partially funded by the US Department of State, the interfaith summit assembles Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Protestant, Islamic, and Jewish religious leaders from around the world to study biblical texts and begin planning for the joint-training institute. The group spent Tuesday at the Jewish Theological Seminary, the flagship institution of Conservative Judaism, interpreting and debating the Jewish, Muslim and Christian versions of the story of Abraham’s binding of Isaac.
Organizers, including Stephen P. Cohen, president of the [New York] based Institute for Middle East Peace and Development, are hailing the initiative as a vital step toward bridging the gaps between the West and the Islamic world. Jewish participants included several members of the JTS faculty; Orthodox rabbi and Brooklyn College professor David Berger, and Rabbi Reuven Firestone, a professor of Medieval Judaism and Islam at the Los Angeles campus of the Reform Movement’s Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion.
“This is a very important moment for the leading religious figures from the Middle East and the Unites States to come together,” Cohen said in a welcoming statement Tuesday. Cohen, a private citizen who has spent much of the past two decades shuttling between Arab, American and Israeli officials in an effort to promote peace, said, “The tensions that currently characterize relations among many nations and religious communities require high-level discussion about ways to advance respect and understanding across faiths.”
From: http://www.mepd.org/programs_and_research/interfaith_respect/controversy_of_interfaith_summit.htm
Regardless of what many want to believe, either of their own wishful thinking, or from world opinion, when God foretells us of something that's going to happen, that's the way it will be.
"Muslim leader wants Temple rebuilt--
Posted: August,2009--
By Joel Richardson--
© 2009
In a historically unprecedented development, a famous Turkish Muslim leader and a prominent group of Israeli rabbis have joined together on one of their declared goals, to rebuild the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.-- Adnan Oktar, who uses the pen name of Harun Yahya, is a controversial but highly influential Muslim intellectual and author with over 65 million of his books in circulation worldwide.-- Oktar recently met with three representatives from the re-established Jewish Sanhedrin, a group of 71 Orthodox rabbis and scholars from Israel, to discuss how religious Muslims, Jews and Christians can work together.
The objectives of the alliance include waging a joint intellectual and spiritual battle against the worldwide growing tide of irreligiousness, unbelief and immorality. But even more unusual is their agreement with regard to the need to rebuild the Jewish Temple, a structure Oktar refers to as the "Masjid (Mosque)" or the "Palace of Solomon." An official statement about the meeting has been published on the Sanhedrin's website. Concluding the statement is the following call:"
From: http://decisionpointnetwork.blogspot.com/2009/08/muslim-leader-wants-temple-rebuilt.html
Just as in the days of Ezra and Nehemiah, there were foreigners in the land that were against the building of the 2nd temple and they tried to stop it. But its building continued unto completion. Our Heavenly Father is in control, and He can influence the minds of Israel's enemies.
A MOOD SWING is already moving among Islamic leaders towards the planned international peace for Jerusalem...
"Controversial Imams Enter Dialogue with Rabbis
By Eric J. Greenberg
Some of the most influential and controversial Islamic clerics in the Middle East are participating in a plan to launch what organizers describe as the first joint-training institute to produce future moderate sheiks, rabbis, priests and ministers.
The unprecedented proposal to create a summer religious institute – where young seminarians from the three [Abrahamic] faiths would study together to break down barriers and foster positive relationships – was unveiled this week during a nine day “Summit for Interfaith Respect” held in New York City and in Boston.
Partially funded by the US Department of State, the interfaith summit assembles Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Protestant, Islamic, and Jewish religious leaders from around the world to study biblical texts and begin planning for the joint-training institute. The group spent Tuesday at the Jewish Theological Seminary, the flagship institution of Conservative Judaism, interpreting and debating the Jewish, Muslim and Christian versions of the story of Abraham’s binding of Isaac.
Organizers, including Stephen P. Cohen, president of the [New York] based Institute for Middle East Peace and Development, are hailing the initiative as a vital step toward bridging the gaps between the West and the Islamic world. Jewish participants included several members of the JTS faculty; Orthodox rabbi and Brooklyn College professor David Berger, and Rabbi Reuven Firestone, a professor of Medieval Judaism and Islam at the Los Angeles campus of the Reform Movement’s Hebrew Union College-Jewish Institute of Religion.
“This is a very important moment for the leading religious figures from the Middle East and the Unites States to come together,” Cohen said in a welcoming statement Tuesday. Cohen, a private citizen who has spent much of the past two decades shuttling between Arab, American and Israeli officials in an effort to promote peace, said, “The tensions that currently characterize relations among many nations and religious communities require high-level discussion about ways to advance respect and understanding across faiths.”
From: http://www.mepd.org/programs_and_research/interfaith_respect/controversy_of_interfaith_summit.htm
Regardless of what many want to believe, either of their own wishful thinking, or from world opinion, when God foretells us of something that's going to happen, that's the way it will be.
I agree that GOD foretells, but the question is what is that guidance. Where you understand one concept, I've provided examples of where prophetic citations of the "sanctuary" and "temple" are nothing more than a Synagogue. So if you think they're more, then maybe you could evaluate these others, before making assertions which are inflated.
Daniel 8
[sup]9[/sup]Out of one of them came a little horn, which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the glorious land. [sup]10[/sup] It grew great, even to the host of heaven. And some of the host and some[sup][[/sup][sup]b[/sup][sup]][/sup] of the stars it threw down to the ground and trampled on them. [sup]11[/sup] It became great, even as great as the Prince of the host. And the regular burnt offering was taken away from him, and the place of his sanctuary was overthrown. [sup]12[/sup]And a host will be given over to it together with the regular burnt offering because of transgression,[sup][[/sup][sup]c[/sup][sup]][/sup] and it will throw truth to the ground, and it will act and prosper. [sup]13[/sup]Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to the one who spoke, "For how long is the vision concerning the regular burnt offering, the transgression that makes desolate, and the giving over of the sanctuary and host to be trampled underfoot?" [sup]14[/sup]And he said to me,[sup][[/sup][sup]d[/sup][sup]][/sup] "For 2,300 evenings and mornings. Then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state."
Daniel 11
[sup]30[/sup]For ships of Kittim shall come against him, and he shall be afraid and withdraw, and shall turn back and be enraged and take action against the holy covenant. He shall turn back and pay attention to those who forsake the holy covenant. [sup]31[/sup]Forces from him shall appear and profane the temple and fortress, and shall take away the regular burnt offering. And they shall set up the abomination that makes desolate.
But of course, these verses are in full context with the respective Chapters, so while it may be ~fun~ to imagine what these say out of context, it's critical to interpret them in context.
BibleScribe
After the crucifixion - God gave Israel 40 years to repent and to come into the New Covenant; but they did not. And so they were severely punished during the destruction of Israel in 66-70AD. And so they continued with the Old Covenant mentality as before. Except that God is now operating in the New Covenant - Not the Old. They made three attempts through history to rebuild the Temple, but were frustrated in every attempt.
The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. Had this revolt been successful - they would have rebuilt the Temple, the cities, and continued on as before. God would have none of it.
The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. So the work stopped and fell to ruin.
The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.
The Christians in general had been nagging the Jews to return to their ancient home land as far back as the time of Oliver Cromwell, who lived in the early 1600's. The present day Israel was established by intrigue, manipulation, corruption, and violence. Not by Prophesy.
How about a new temple? It will never happen because as I stated before - God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus has been made. God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews into the New Covenant. Hebrews indicates that it is Sin to go from the NT back to the old.
Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple – is there a pattern here? Today they are calling the Fortress Antonia “The Temple Mount” – not true. The real Temple Mount was located about 600 feet from the south wall of the Fortress. They want Antonia to be the Temple Mount for political and religious reasons. The fact is they could start building tomorrow with very little effort had they not believed this lie.
The only temple that remains is the spiritual Temple that Jesus built when he arose from the dead – like he said he would do. This is Ezekiel's temple – you know the Temple that only has ONE Tamid (lamb) sacrifice a day. A single lamb. No court of women, no court of Israel, no court of gentiles – whatever could this mean? You can't take symbolic books literally and you can see what a totally complicated mess Literalists have created in our time.
The first attempt was during the Bar Kochba revolt in 135AD. This attempt was put down by the Emperor Hadrian. Had this revolt been successful - they would have rebuilt the Temple, the cities, and continued on as before. God would have none of it.
The second attempt was in 324AD under Constantine. He gave permission and later withdrew it by cutting off the ears of the priests and craftsmen. No maimed person could work on the Temple. So the work stopped and fell to ruin.
The third attempt was under the emperor Julian the Apostate. This was frustrated yet again by subterranean fires, which destroyed the works early in its construction.
The Christians in general had been nagging the Jews to return to their ancient home land as far back as the time of Oliver Cromwell, who lived in the early 1600's. The present day Israel was established by intrigue, manipulation, corruption, and violence. Not by Prophesy.
How about a new temple? It will never happen because as I stated before - God is continually frustrating any movement in that direction. There is not one shred of an indication anywhere that this will happen. There is no longer any need for the old animal sacrifice system because the once and for all sacrifice of Jesus has been made. God is trying to direct, steer, herd, the Jews into the New Covenant. Hebrews indicates that it is Sin to go from the NT back to the old.
Consider that even today God has already frustrated all the Orthodox plans for a new Temple because the place where they think it should go is under the control of the Muslims. This is the forth frustrated attempt to rebuild the Temple – is there a pattern here? Today they are calling the Fortress Antonia “The Temple Mount” – not true. The real Temple Mount was located about 600 feet from the south wall of the Fortress. They want Antonia to be the Temple Mount for political and religious reasons. The fact is they could start building tomorrow with very little effort had they not believed this lie.
The only temple that remains is the spiritual Temple that Jesus built when he arose from the dead – like he said he would do. This is Ezekiel's temple – you know the Temple that only has ONE Tamid (lamb) sacrifice a day. A single lamb. No court of women, no court of Israel, no court of gentiles – whatever could this mean? You can't take symbolic books literally and you can see what a totally complicated mess Literalists have created in our time.
Lot of wishful thinking, and vain assumptions that history is a limiter to what God can do.
But none of that wishful thinking can get around the prophetic Scripture about it, like 2 Thess.2:4, Rev.11:1-2, and Matt.24:15 which Christ gave within the signs for the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The LORD has already told us a Jewish temple will be built for the end prior to Christ's second coming, and no one is going to prevent it.
But none of that wishful thinking can get around the prophetic Scripture about it, like 2 Thess.2:4, Rev.11:1-2, and Matt.24:15 which Christ gave within the signs for the 6th Trumpet - 2nd Woe period. The LORD has already told us a Jewish temple will be built for the end prior to Christ's second coming, and no one is going to prevent it.
To All,
I have already provided prophecies which cited a "sanctuary" and a "temple". And both were simply Synagogues. Furthermore, one mans "Temple" is another mans "Headquarters". The only difference is who owns the "company".
As such, "Cooter" has correctly assessed what the TRUE Temple is.
BibleScribe
I have already provided prophecies which cited a "sanctuary" and a "temple". And both were simply Synagogues. Furthermore, one mans "Temple" is another mans "Headquarters". The only difference is who owns the "company".
As such, "Cooter" has correctly assessed what the TRUE Temple is.
BibleScribe
More smoke and mirrors. My post is based on historical facts. Futurism is based on speculation based on of out-of-context scriptures. Does speculation take preference over history?
revturmoil
New Member
Tell your preterist buddy Envolve to send you somewhere else next time. Like the recycle bin!
So if you aren't a futurist...what are you doing here?
Preterism is Satans handi-work!
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