A Time Before Land-- looking back.... A New Adventure Series with Mr E

[O'Darby]

The New Testament shows some evidence that the early church was credulous of the Greek conception of Hades. Jesus' breaks down the 'gates of hell' to set captives free. That sounds like way more than a dirt-nap. There's a whole cosmology packaged into that little verse.

And if they had a Hades then that includes transmigration of souls, which is just a fancy name for reincarnation. The Greeks' Hades was an In-Between Place, not a Final Destination. Souls went there for judgment and then went on to... Tartarus, Elysium, Outer Darkness, or had their memory erased and were re-born into this world.

You have forced me to launch into a discussion of my recent Gnostic studies! One branch taught that there were three types of humans: Those who had achieved gnosis, who were saved. Those who were so far gone they were lost. And the great middle, who would eventually achieve gnosis after a succession of lifetimes.

Where my theology won't allow me to simply ignore reincarnation is that (1) it is one of the oldest and most widely held religious beliefs, which seems "just a bit" odd for something that isn't at all obvious (i.e., why would it occur to so many disparate cultures?), and (2) it is supported by a fairly compelling body of evidence, for which I'm not willing to take the easy way out and ascribe it all to demons.

 

[Wick Stick]

You have forced me to launch into a discussion of my recent Gnostic studies! One branch taught that there were three types of humans: Those who had achieved gnosis, who were saved. Those who were so far gone they were lost. And the great middle, who would eventually achieve gnosis after a succession of lifetimes.

Where my theology won't allow me to simply ignore reincarnation is that (1) it is one of the oldest and most widely held religious beliefs, which seems "just a bit" odd for something that isn't at all obvious (i.e., why would it occur to so many disparate cultures?), and (2) it is supported by a fairly compelling body of evidence, for which I'm not willing to take the easy way out and ascribe it all to demons.

I don't buy the idea that it cropped up in separate places.

The Greeks got it from Plato's Phaedo, and he seems to have gotten it from the mystery religions, which trace back to Persia. The Persians and early Indians are essentially the same people, both having migrated from the Caucusus around the area of Ararat. That looks like a single origin to me.

 

[Mr E]

Suddenly scientology... why?

A man filled his lungs and held his breath as he dove beneath the surface of the sea. Doing so he was able to reach a bed of oysters, searching and gathering all he could find for as long as he could endure. He did this again and again in various places and from his efforts at harvesting from the sea he would pry open the shells in search of their hidden treasure.

These pearls he would string together and sell to merchants, who would then sell to others to treasure or admire, to keep or to give as gifts.

Each pearl, unique. Though they all come from the same ocean, a string of pearls isn’t like ‘peas in a pod’ rather the collection and connection is made by virtue of the one doing the collecting and connecting.

If you see a pearl in my collection and think it came from some “other” source? -I can assure you, all have come from one sea.

 

[Wick Stick]

If you see a pearl in my collection and think it came from some “other” source? -I can assure you, all have come from one sea.

That's actually pretty close to how I view human intelligence - as one big collective sea that we all both draw-from, and contribute-to.

And that... doesn't make everything in the our super-consciousness true or real. What we imagine is a big part of it. Be careful which waters you sail upon, my friend.

 

[O'Darby]

I don't buy the idea that it cropped up in separate places.

The Greeks got it from Plato's Phaedo, and he seems to have gotten it from the mystery religions, which trace back to Persia. The Persians and early Indians are essentially the same people, both having migrated from the Caucusus around the area of Ararat. That looks like a single origin to me.

It's impossible to know the genesis of the belief, but it is found in many Alaskan Native and Native American tribes, African tribes, among the ancient Celts and really in an astounding variety of places. Not all with the same understanding, of course, but the basic idea.

One school of anthropology holds that humans did not develop religious beliefs on the basis of philosophy or wishful thinking, Instead, primitive people experienced precisely the same anomalous phenomena we do today - ghosts, apparitions, visions, deathbed apparitions and experiences, mediumistic communications, After-Death Communications (dreams and signs), Near Death Experiences and all the rest. Their beliefs in a supernatural realm, an afterlife and even reincarnation were an entirely rational response to what they experienced.

 

[Mr E]

The New Testament shows some evidence that the early church was credulous of the Greek conception of Hades. Jesus' breaks down the 'gates of hell' to set captives free. That sounds like way more than a dirt-nap. There's a whole cosmology packaged into that little verse.

And if they had a Hades then that includes transmigration of souls, which is just a fancy name for reincarnation. The Greeks' Hades was an In-Between Place, not a Final Destination. Souls went there for judgment and then went on to... Tartarus, Elysium, Outer Darkness, or had their memory erased and were re-born into this world.

Stay tuned. Do you think "Jesus" descended into hell to set captives free? He went underground?

Or where was the descent actually from and who actually descended? I know I'm crawling through the story at a turtle's pace, but in the Executive Summary we'll revisit some of these ideas and folks will realize what (and where) the abode of the dead is, that he descended into. Where's the prison and who are the prisoners-- and for that matter-- who is the warden of the joint?

 

[Wick Stick]

Stay tuned. Do you think "Jesus" descended into hell to set captives free? He went underground?

Not exactly. In mythology, it's more of an underworld that's separated from the regular world by water.

In 1Enoch that you mentioned, he is shown 4 "hollow places" where the dead are housed, and in that book it isn't clear quite where they're at.

Or where was the descent actually from and who actually descended? I know I'm crawling through the story at a turtle's pace, but in the Executive Summary we'll revisit some of these ideas and folks will realize what (and where) the abode of the dead is, that he descended into. Where's the prison and who are the prisoners-- and for that matter-- who is the warden of the joint?

You seem to be hinting that we're living in Hades, but perhaps I am jumping ahead... best let the storyteller tell. So tell.

 

[Mr E]

You seem to be hinting that we're living in Hades, but perhaps I am jumping ahead... best let the storyteller tell. So tell.

We're coming to it. I'm not hinting.... I'm pointing.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Where my theology won't allow me to simply ignore reincarnation

Nothing in the Bible supports reincarnation.

Do the souls of the deceased get repeatedly recycled in new physical bodies?

No.

Do Christians receive new spiritual bodies in the resurrection?

Yes.

1Co 15:42-44 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. (43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

 

[O'Darby]

Nothing in the Bible supports reincarnation.

Do the souls of the deceased get repeatedly recycled in new physical bodies?

No.

Do Christians receive new spiritual bodies in the resurrection?

Yes.

1Co 15:42-44 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead: What is sown is perishable; it is raised imperishable. (43) It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. (44) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Sure, that's the party line. No problem. As I suggested in one of my posts above, it does reflect kind of a simplistic linear view of reincarnation. There are possibilities that would remain sufficiently biblical while also eliminating some of the most problematical issues for mainstream Christianity. When I was a priest in Ancient Egypt, we used to kick these ideas around all the time.

 

[Mr E]

Sure, that's the party line. No problem. As I suggested in one of my posts above, it does reflect kind of a simplistic linear view of reincarnation. There are possibilities that would remain sufficiently biblical while also eliminating some of the most problematical issues for mainstream Christianity. When I was a priest in Ancient Egypt, we used to kick these ideas around all the time.

It's problematical for sure- O'Master of understatement. I'll argue that not only is there ample Biblical support, it's a central tenet.

Ah, ah, ah ah....... stayin' alive, stayin' alive.

 

[Mr E]

A family tree was planted in a garden and from that one seed-bearing tree ---- offspring. Fruit. And from the fruit-- seed.
From the seed-- trees..... from the trees..... fruit. This is eternal life.

And this tree was a man and having had his nostrils infused with the very breath of life from the creator above-- this man was the tree of life. And from his side, taken out of him-- his fleshly part and the knowledge of all thing fleshy.... she-- was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Flesh gives birth to flesh-- and she became the mother of all the living. From his seed through her--- their fruit was their family.

It's the first parable of scripture.

In this same garden, were those created by the other elohim sons. Those images of the elohim-- those likenesses that became idols and items of distraction, then of interest, then of infatuation, then of addiction, then of destruction, for the Father took notice that His children were fixated on created things. He might as well have let them have smart phones, for their noses became attached to the objects of their pride. In the invented world of their own making-- the creatures and images of themselves-- or the way they made themselves out to appear became all important. Self-image. Self-importance. This world and their image/idols became a fantasy world-- so what was a Father to do?

 

[Mr E]

 

[O'Darby]

WTH??? Our society has gone completely off the deep end. Except to deceive potential suitors or feed your own narcissistic fantasies, of what possible use could these "filters" be??? I've often said that the ONLY person whose appearance ever seemed better to me after plastic surgery was - wait for it - Phyllis Diller! Everyone else seems to think they look fabulous when in fact they look ghastly. Like so much else in our society, it's like some sort of mass delusion.

 

[Mr E]

WTH??? Our society has gone completely off the deep end. Except to deceive potential suitors or feed your own narcissistic fantasies, of what possible use could these "filters" be??? I've often said that the ONLY person whose appearance ever seemed better to me after plastic surgery was - wait for it - Phyllis Diller! Everyone else seems to think they look fabulous when in fact they look ghastly. Like so much else in our society, it's like some sort of mass delusion.

She was delightful. A regular Betty White. The two are enough to make you believe in reincarnation.

 

[Mr E]

That's how it was. The elohim had created a race of men and they loved their handiwork. They fussed and preened and played with the images of themselves with great delight, and enjoyed with maximum pleasure being gods of this environment of their own making. And therein lies the trouble. Some really did begin to think in those terms. That's when the Chief stepped in.

To these, Yahweh speaks in a manner recorded in Ezekiel 28.... 'You had it all-- full of wisdom, perfected in beauty.... You were in Eden, the garden of God... You were blameless in your behavior from the day you were created, until sin was discovered in you...'

What sin? It's the first sin. It's idolatry. And this is what caused 'the fall.'

The consequence was not simply banishment from the garden. Not expulsion from heaven.... there was a binding. It's the equivalent of what Paul describes in the introduction of his letter to the Romans, describing this very scene...

For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen because they are understood through what has been made. So people are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not glorify him as God or give him thanks, but they became futile in their thoughts, and their senseless hearts were darkened. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for an image resembling mortal human beings or birds or four-footed animals or reptiles.

Therefore God gave them over in the desires of their hearts to impurity, to dishonor their bodies among themselves. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creation rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

With predictable results----

For this reason God gave them over to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged the natural sexual relations for unnatural ones, and likewise the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed in their passions for one another. Men committed shameless acts with men and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what should not be done. They are filled with every kind of unrighteousness, wickedness, covetousness, malice. They are rife with envy, murder, strife, deceit, hostility. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, contrivers of all sorts of evil, disobedient to parents, senseless, covenant-breakers, heartless, ruthless. Although they fully know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but also approve of those who practice them.

Can these that had been given over to dishonorable passions and depraved minds remain in the garden of God? Can the profane remain and reside with the holy?

You want to be gods? Abracadabra. Now you are. Have at 'er. Let's see how it all works out. So not only were they cast from heaven-- they were given over to their creations-- bound to the realm below the heavens, this was the fall of 'angels' -- the fall of the divine sons.

 

[Mr E]

The story is told in Genesis 6-- kind of like an 'executive summary' where the sons of God saw that the daughters of humankind were beautiful and they bound themselves to them.... More details of a similar nature are offered in the story of Enoch-

And it came to pass when the children of men had multiplied that in those days were born unto them beautiful and comely daughters. And the angels, the children of the heaven, saw and lusted after them, and said to one another: 'Come, let us choose us wives from among the children of men and beget us children.' And Semjâzâ, who was their leader, said unto them: 'I fear ye will not indeed agree to do this deed, and I alone shall have to pay the penalty of a great sin.' And they all answered him and said: 'Let us all swear an oath, and all bind ourselves by mutual imprecations not to abandon this plan but to do this thing.' Then sware they all together and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it. And they were in all two hundred; who descended in the days of Jared on the summit of Mount Hermon, and they called it Mount Hermon, because they had sworn and bound themselves by mutual imprecations upon it.

What the Genesis account mentions in passing, the Enoch story provides detail. It's like Moses tells his story expecting that we are all familiar with those details from Enoch, who preceded him.

And all the others together with them took unto themselves wives, and each chose for himself one, and they began to go in unto them and to defile themselves with them, and they taught them charms and enchantments, and the cutting of roots, and made them acquainted with plants. And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells: Who consumed all the acquisitions of men. And when men could no longer sustain them, the giants turned against them and devoured mankind. And they began to sin against birds, and beasts, and reptiles, and fish, and to devour one another's flesh, and drink the blood. Then the earth laid accusation against the lawless ones.


And Azâzêl taught men to make swords, and knives, and shields, and breastplates, and made known to them the metals of the earth and the art of working them, and bracelets, and ornaments, and the use of antimony, and the beautifying of the eyelids, and all kinds of costly stones, and all colouring tinctures. And there arose much godlessness, and they committed fornication, and they were led astray, and became corrupt in all their ways. Semjâzâ taught enchantments, and root-cuttings...

It was these fallen elohim who as before, were consumed by the images they created and the beautification of these images --- these fallen ones, now bound to flesh-- did all that they desired on earth.

And earth-- became their prison. Spirits now contained within earthly (human) vessels.

 

[Wick Stick]

The story-telling is solid, but we are well into the realm of science fiction now.

There is confusion in this story between angels and spirits, and how the two interact with humanity. Angels that fall are devils. They don't become persons.

 

[Mr E]

The story-telling is solid, but we are well into the realm of science fiction now.

There is confusion in this story between angels and spirits, and how the two interact with humanity. Angels that fall are devils. They don't become persons.

It's among questions often asked. Why are things so messed up? How did 'everything that was created good,' -go so bad?

Did God create evil? --Where did "demons" come from, if not created?

And is earth in some sense-- a prison? Or is it a school? What is it? What is the purpose?


-The confusion, might be your own. I've come to use, interchangably the terms- angels and spirits. Both terms can be used loosely to describe these divine beings that scripture calls elohim. In a more technical understanding-- angel (malak) is properly understood as a function of an elohim. It is used to describe what the elohim/divine/spiritual being is doing-- acting as an emissary, or messenger and delivering a message. How these angels do that is in spirit, as they are spiritual beings and not corporeal. You might see and interact with them while you are in spirit-- that is, while you are dreaming. Or, you might interact with them while they appear 'in-person' -- that is, while a person is wide awake, an angel visits them, rests upon them, guides them, and prompts them to say or do certain things in a way that you might think of as akin to a rider on a horse. He reins, or spurs, or prompts in ways the horse understands and has learned to follow, and one does the will of the other to whatever extent the horse is willing.

It's the same with these fallen ones, you call devils. They weren't always devils, but were created good. They "fell" into idolatry and sin and were separated from the holy ones who remained in the presence of God (in the heavenly realm) and these fallen ones were sent away and confined to the earthly plane. This isn't a spiritual place. It's physical. Spirits don't roam free-- they must be contained and as such they only have influence -in you- and in me, and even in four-footed beasts as Enoch tells us. The concept is emphasized in the scriptures where the demons plead to be sent into the herd of pigs rather than a place of torment. This is where the idea of demon-possession comes from and it's the other end of the spectrum, the opposite of what I described above as being "inspired" as were the writers of scripture-- being 'filled with the spirit' and having 'the word of God come upon you' -- these are all wordy ways of saying the same things. For good, or evil-- we are all to some degree, 'under the influence.' It works the same for these fallen ones, with the exception being who sends whom. Just as the elohim in the divine council above had/have a Chief-- there is one who sought to displace him and that one is Chief here-- I think of him as the Warden, where the insane are running the asylum.

 

[Mr E]

If you can get your head around it all, it's a helpful campfire story.

What started as good, could have remained so-- like Fantasyland, a place of amusement-- a park to visit and enjoy from time to time-- but you wouldn't want to live there. If your kids became so obsessed with it all, that it's all they thought about, and all they cared about-- and they began to believe that the characters they created were real.... real-life super heros, real-life beauty queens, princes and princesses, great warriors, captains of industry-- gods. Well? Let them. It's one thing if we were talking about five, or seven-year-olds who love Disney-- quite another when we are talking about elohim-- the divine children of God, who know better. How do you handle your adult children?

Quite simply-- you don't. You let them live their lives as they will and the consequences are their own. They become estranged.

But rather than saying-- 'Screw it and screw them.... let them get themselves out of their own mess' ---God as a loving Father sent another son to rescue and redeem these lost ones. With good news. A message and an opportunity for reconciliation. A way back.

This one he sent would do battle with those below. He would counter and oppose those ones who had fallen under their influence and he would deliver the message he was sent with-- the truth about the Father of all, and to those who would listen and believe-- those captives he would set free. Though it cost his physical life, he would gladly lay it down, because the flesh counts for nothing, and he could pick it up again as easily as we put on a new pair of pants. The earthly abode of death, he triumphed over. And he'd do it all again-- time after time, this heavenly son would go. Whenever the Father asked, in obedience he would give up his heavenly estate where he sat upon a throne at the right hand of God, and descend. The return of Christ.