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A true Jew

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by verzanumi24, Aug 26, 2007.

  1. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    Well, v24, when pharisees were furious with Jesus saying they are Abraham's decendants Jesus said they are not decendants of Abraham. It sounds like the same kind of logic to me.hitomi:)
    Hi Joyful,Jesus said they were not the descendants of Abraham because if they were they would do like he did and listen and believe what he was saying to them.Abraham listened to God and believed him, but these were not listening to God speaking through Christ. Yes they were the physical but they were not spiritually the descendants. Abraham believed what God had told him and God accounted this to him as righteousneess. His covenant about his decendants had nothing to do with faith that was accounted as righteousness. I think this was the point he was trying to make but in a round about way.God said that through Abraham he would bless all the nations of the earth,]Those who accept the truth about Jesus Christ are the Descendants of Abraham in the spiritual sense. Isaiah 54:17 (King James Version17.No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.Abraham knew God as do todays believers, they are as Abraham spiritually alive to God by Faith in what God has said about his Son.Love Faithful.xx
     
  2. Joyful

    Joyful New Member

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    Hi Joyful,Jesus said they were not the descendants of Abraham because if they were they would do like he did and listen and believe what he was saying to them.Abraham listened to God and believed him, but these were not listening to God speaking through Christ. Yes they were the physical but they were not spiritually the descendants. Abraham believed what God had told him and God accounted this to him as righteousneess. His covenant about his decendants had nothing to do with faith that was accounted as righteousness. I think this was the point he was trying to make but in a round about way.God said that through Abraham he would bless all the nations of the earth,]Those who accept the truth about Jesus Christ are the Descendants of Abraham in the spiritual sense. Isaiah 54:17 (King James Version17.No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.Abraham knew God as do todays believers, they are as Abraham spiritually alive to God by Faith in what God has said about his Son.Love Faithful.xx
    This is all about importance of being faithful and truthful to God and Jesus and not heritage or ethnicity. God is fair and just to everyone. He does not play favoritism.
     
  3. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    This is all about importance of being faithful and truthful to God and Jesus and not heritage or ethnicity. God is fair and just to everyone. He does not play favoritism.
    Read it again you have have not read it properly.:angel9:
     
  4. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Well, v24, when pharisees were furious with Jesus saying they are Abraham's decendants Jesus said they are not decendants of Abraham. It sounds like the same kind of logic to me.hitomi:)
    Yes you are some what correct..... Jesus is a descendant of David, a Jew, so therefore His brothers and sisters are also Jews. But Jesus was not just a Jew by physical heritage, even more so He was a spiritual Jew.If we are a Gentile by birth, and we have been baptized and receive the Holy Spirit, then Jesus is our Brother making us a spiritual Jew.Matthew 12:48-50 (KJV) 48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? 49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! 50 For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. A true Jew is from the inside (conversion) and not from the outside (by physical birth)Romans 2:28-29 (KJV) 28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God. A Jew is a descendant of Abraham, but a true Jew is one born of God, who was predestined to called of God, which means he/she is the child of promise. Romans 9:7-8 (KJV) 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
     
  5. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    ROMANS 2:28-29=Romans 2:28-29 (King James Version) 28.For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29.But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.Deuteronomy 30:6 (King James Version) 6.And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.This promise was given to the Israelites through Moses, so circumcision of the heart in Romans is Paul clealry speaking about the fact that all true Jews had their heart circumcised by the Holy Spirit. Examples.David Psalm 51:11 (King James Version)11.Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.Luke 2:25-26.25.And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26.And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. All true believers in every age have believed and known about Jesus Christ and have received the Holy Spirit. So this is to show that all true believers born of the Spirit.
    Romans 9:7-8 (KJV) 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
    Genesis 21:12 (King James Version)12.And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.Clearly Paul confirming that not all who call him Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of heaven. We see that only those who love and have received the Holy Spirit. Paul is not saying that the Jews not Jews, but that the true believer whether Israelite, Jew or Gentile, the true ones had their heart circuncised by the Holy Spirit and this has happened in every age amongst the Jews.
     
  6. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    ROMANS 2:28-29=Romans 2:28-29 (King James Version) 28.For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29.But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.Deuteronomy 30:6 (King James Version) 6.And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.This promise was given to the Israelites through Moses, so circumcision of the heart in Romans is Paul clealry speaking about the fact that all true Jews had their heart circumcised by the Holy Spirit. Examples.David Psalm 51:11 (King James Version)11.Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.Luke 2:25-26.25.And, behold, there was a man in Jerusalem, whose name was Simeon; and the same man was just and devout, waiting for the consolation of Israel: and the Holy Ghost was upon him. 26.And it was revealed unto him by the Holy Ghost, that he should not see death, before he had seen the Lord's Christ. All true believers in every age have believed and known about Jesus Christ and have received the Holy Spirit. So this is to show that all true believers born of the Spirit.Genesis 21:12 (King James Version)12.And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called.Clearly Paul confirming that not all who call him Lord, Lord shall enter the Kingdom of heaven. We see that only those who love and have received the Holy Spirit. Paul is not saying that the Jews not Jews, but that the true believer whether Israelite, Jew or Gentile, the true ones had their heart circuncised by the Holy Spirit and this has happened in every age amongst the Jews.
    You have gotten it right......the Bible is a spiritual Book, so when we read it we need to see what is written from God's eyes. The children of Israel were a type of God's true people.....they were a shadow of the Church. Interestingly, Pentecost that the Children of Israel kept was also picturing the Church; the Church was born on the day of Pentecost.So who are the chosen people of God? Us, Christians, the Church. It is Christians who have been and is doing God's will on the earth, of which the Children as a whole failed to do. Not that God has forsaken the house of Israel, in fact the Bible shows that when we have been glorified, God will use us to bring salvation to the house of Israel, and they in turn will be a light to bring the remaining Gentiles to God.The rituals that the Israelites were commanded to observe is actually God's plan of salvation for mankind.....read it with that in mind. Study the Old Testament as you would the New (the early Church did not have the New Testament Bible, they studded the Old to learn what God's intention), it will open a whole new world to you……most of the Old Testament is prophecy, which is yet to be fulfilled.
     
  7. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    Hi verzanumi24,Before I answer your last post there has been something niggling me from the last which I should of addressed.
    So far you have come the closest to what I am talking about, but you have not hit the nail on the head, because Abraham was not a Jew; he was a Gentile.
    If you are saying that circumcision of the heart is the real circumcision required for being a Jew then how can Abraham who knew God not be a Jew when he is the first to be accepted as righteous through faith?Romans 4 (King James Version)Romans 4 1.What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2.For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3.For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [Genesis 15:6 Galations 3:6.] 4.Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6.Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [7.Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. ] 7-8 [psalm 32:1-2.] 9.Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10.How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11.And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: [Genesis 17:10] 12.And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13.For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [Genesis 17:4-6; Genesis 22:17-18 & Galations 3:29.] 14.For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15.Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16.Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, The word teaches that Abrahams faith was accounted to him as righteousness before he was of circumcision and that circumcision is as any Jew will tell you an outer sign of God's covenant with him. You must remember that there was no law of the covenant when God made the eternal promise through Isaac. The covenant of the law with the Israelites was made because of Gods rememberance of his promise to Abraham through Isaac.References to check what I have said in brackets at the side.Abraham is the Father of all who know the true God by faith and through the Spirit, for it all started with him, before and after circumcision, before and after the law and so we see Gods covenants and promises are eternal for those who believe and trust him and them.
    verzanumi24 You have gotten it right......the Bible is a spiritual Book, so when we read it we need to see what is written from God's eyes. The children of Israel were a type of God's true people.....they were a shadow of the Church. Interestingly, Pentecost that the Children of Israel kept was also picturing the Church; the Church was born on the day of Pentecost.
    The word teaches they were the builders of the faith for the church has always been people who believe in the only true God and who know him.Psalm 118:18-23 (King James Version)18.The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19.Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20.This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. John 10:9 (King James Version)9.I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 21.I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22.The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. [ Luke 20:17 Acts 4:11 & 1 Peter 2:7] [verses 22-23.= Matt 21:42 Mark 12:10-11.]The corner stone is the most important in any building. 23.This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.They were the first to know God and receive salvation and God has been a deliverer of his people from the beginning.
    verzanumi24 So who are the chosen people of God? Us, Christians, the Church. It is Christians who have been and is doing God's will on the earth, of which the Children as a whole failed to do. Not that God has forsaken the house of Israel, in fact the Bible shows that when we have been glorified, God will use us to bring salvation to the house of Israel, and they in turn will be a light to bring the remaining Gentiles to God.
    No! For by the same reasoning you use above David cannot be a christian if he is a jew or are you seeing the light? That all who do what is right is acceptable to God. Peter in Acts with the sheet. God declared the Gentiles clean and a gentile was only a gentile because they were not a Jew and did not know God or follow his covenant. Now we have a covenant where all may become the children of God. But unlike the Jews the gentile did not have a covenant with the true God till Jesus came. They were the builders and the children of Abraham but not all spiritual children like David and the prophets.Again today we have believers who are not all spiritually alive and so our Lord will say, " Go away I never knew you." For those who are children of God love him and their neighbour.
    verzanumi24 The rituals that the Israelites were commanded to observe is actually God's plan of salvation for making.....read it with that in mind. Study the Old Testament as you would the New (the early Church did not have the New Testament Bible, they studded the Old to learn what God's intention), it will open a whole new world to you……most of the Old Testament is prophecy, which is yet to be fulfilled.
    The only scripture spoken about in the New Testament was the Old Testament. But the Lord teaches us that John 6:39 & 45. (King James Version)39.And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.John 6:45 (King James Version)45.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [Isaiah 54:13 (King James Version)13.And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. Jeremiah 31:31-34 1 John 2:27.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.. ] All the people of God who have circumcised hearts are taught by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth there is no error or confusion in his teachings. And they can only be received by those in the Spirit. That is why it is important every believer searches the scriptures for themselves and lives according to the Spirits leading and teachings.Galations 5:18.But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.Love Faithful.[​IMG]:angel9:
     
  8. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Hi verzanumi24,Before I answer your last post there has been something niggling me from the last which I should of addressed.If you are saying that circumcision of the heart is the real circumcision required for being a Jew then how can Abraham who knew God not be a Jew when he is the first to be accepted as righteous through faith?Romans 4 (King James Version)Romans 4 1.What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2.For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3.For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. [Genesis 15:6 Galations 3:6.] 4.Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5.But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6.Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, [7.Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. 8.Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. ] 7-8 [psalm 32:1-2.] 9.Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10.How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11.And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: [Genesis 17:10] 12.And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised. 13.For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. [Genesis 17:4-6; Genesis 22:17-18 & Galations 3:29.] 14.For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15.Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16.Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, The word teaches that Abrahams faith was accounted to him as righteousness before he was of circumcision and that circumcision is as any Jew will tell you an outer sign of God's covenant with him. You must remember that there was no law of the covenant when God made the eternal promise through Isaac. The covenant of the law with the Israelites was made because of Gods rememberance of his promise to Abraham through Isaac.References to check what I have said in brackets at the side.Abraham is the Father of all who know the true God by faith and through the Spirit, for it all started with him, before and after circumcision, before and after the law and so we see Gods covenants and promises are eternal for those who believe and trust him and them.The word teaches they were the builders of the faith for the church has always been people who believe in the only true God and who know him.Psalm 118:18-23 (King James Version)18.The LORD hath chastened me sore: but he hath not given me over unto death. 19.Open to me the gates of righteousness: I will go into them, and I will praise the LORD: 20.This gate of the LORD, into which the righteous shall enter. John 10:9 (King James Version)9.I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. 21.I will praise thee: for thou hast heard me, and art become my salvation. 22.The stone which the builders refused is become the head stone of the corner. [ Luke 20:17 Acts 4:11 & 1 Peter 2:7] [verses 22-23.= Matt 21:42 Mark 12:10-11.]The corner stone is the most important in any building. 23.This is the LORD's doing; it is marvellous in our eyes.They were the first to know God and receive salvation and God has been a deliverer of his people from the beginning.No! For by the same reasoning you use above David cannot be a christian if he is a jew or are you seeing the light? That all who do what is right is acceptable to God. Peter in Acts with the sheet. God declared the Gentiles clean and a gentile was only a gentile because they were not a Jew and did not know God or follow his covenant. Now we have a covenant where all may become the children of God. But unlike the Jews the gentile did not have a covenant with the true God till Jesus came. They were the builders and the children of Abraham but not all spiritual children like David and the prophets.Again today we have believers who are not all spiritually alive and so our Lord will say, " Go away I never knew you." For those who are children of God love him and their neighbour. The only scripture spoken about in the New Testament was the Old Testament. But the Lord teaches us that John 6:39 & 45. (King James Version)39.And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.John 6:45 (King James Version)45.It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. [Isaiah 54:13 (King James Version)13.And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children. Jeremiah 31:31-34 1 John 2:27.But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.. ] All the people of God who have circumcised hearts are taught by the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the Spirit of Truth there is no error or confusion in his teachings. And they can only be received by those in the Spirit. That is why it is important every believer searches the scriptures for themselves and lives according to the Spirits leading and teachings.Galations 5:18.But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.Love Faithful.[​IMG]:angel9:
    I don't believe you understand my point, so to avoid repeating myself please go to the link below. But I will say this, being a spiritual Jew is the same as being circumcised in your mind, of which Abel, Noah, David, Abraham, Samuel, Job, Jeremiah and all the prophets just to name a few were also. Being circumcised in heart simply means the person has God's Spirit in them. Those who are filled with God's Holy Spirit were first call Christians, in the New Testament, but in the Old they are simply called man of God, prophet of God for example....it still means the same thing in the Old or the New.[url="http://www.christianityboard.com/whom-gods-word-say-true-jew-t3648.html]http://www.christianityboard.com/whom-gods...-jew-t3648.html[/url]
     
  9. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    verzanumi24I don't believe you understand my point, so to avoid repeating myself please go to the link below. But I will say this, being a spiritual Jew is the same as being circumcised in your mind, of which Abel, Noah, David, Abraham, Samuel, Job, Jeremiah and all the prophets just to name a few were also. Being circumcised in heart simply means the person has God's Spirit in them. Those who are filled with God's Holy Spirit were first call Christians, in the New Testament, but in the Old they are simply called man of God, prophet of God for example....it still means the same thing in the Old or the New.
    Your totally wrong and have not read my reply correctly. How can the circumcised Jew be the same as a Spiritual one. When my posts clearly stated.
    Faithful. They were the builders and the children of Abraham but not all spiritual children like David and the prophets.Again today we have believers who are not all spiritually alive and so our Lord will say, " Go away I never knew you." For those who are children of God love him and their neighbour.
    Why do you try to tell me what I believe? When my posts show the opposite to what you say. Do you not understand them? John 17:3 (King James Version) 3.And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.Faithfulxx
     
  10. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    Your totally wrong and have not read my reply correctly. How can the circumcised Jew be the same as a Spiritual one.
    I never said that physical circumcised Jew is the same a spiritual Jew. I am speaking spiritually; a true Jew is a spiritual Jew, which is of the spirit. The Children of Israel as a whole were only circumcised in the flesh; they were not circumcised from within, like Moses, David and the other men of God. The righteous men and women of the Old Testament were circumcised from within, just like Christians are.
     
  11. adonaicole

    adonaicole New Member

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    Jews are generally defined as a descendent of Israel. It is not a requirement to believe in Judaism to make aliyah, but it is a requirement that you can trace your ancestry back to Israel. Jesus and all the disciples were jews. Moses is a jew and he rejoiced to see Jesus day. David was a jew and he prophecied of Jesus.
     
  12. MickinEngland

    MickinEngland New Member

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    But Judaism seems split anyway (Othodox/ Unorthodox/ Messianic/ non-Messianic etc) so the word 'Jew' means different things to different people.All I know is that the Jesus-rejecting Jews will never get to heaven or it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood"..
     
  13. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (adonaicole;16265)
    Jews are generally defined as a descendent of Israel. It is not a requirement to believe in Judaism to make aliyah, but it is a requirement that you can trace your ancestry back to Israel. Jesus and all the disciples were jews. Moses is a jew and he rejoiced to see Jesus day. David was a jew and he prophecied of Jesus.
    Yes that is true, but in God's eyes(which is far more important) a true Jew is a spiritual Jew, which is the same as saying a Christian.
     
  14. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    (verzanumi24;16195)
    I never said that physical circumcised Jew is the same a spiritual Jew. I am speaking spiritually; a true Jew is a spiritual Jew, which is of the spirit. The Children of Israel as a whole were only circumcised in the flesh; they were not circumcised from within, like Moses, David and the other men of God. The righteous men and women of the Old Testament were circumcised from within, just like Christians are.
    You should read what you wrote again. You said and I quote:
    verzanumi24I don't believe you understand my point, so to avoid repeating myself please go to the link below. But I will say this, being a spiritual Jew is the same as being circumcised in your mind, of which Abel, Noah, David, Abraham, Samuel, Job, Jeremiah and all the prophets just to name a few were also. Being circumcised in heart simply means the person has God's Spirit in them. Those who are filled with God's Holy Spirit were first call Christians, in the New Testament, but in the Old they are simply called man of God, prophet of God for example....it still means the same thing in the Old or the New.
    I told you
    Faithful.They were the builders and the children of Abraham but not all spiritual children like David and the prophets.Again today we have believers who are not all spiritually alive and so our Lord will say, " Go away I never knew you." For those who are children of God love him and their neighbour. Why do you try to tell me what I believe? When my posts show the opposite to
    You simply had not read my posts correctly.Faithful:)
     
  15. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    adonaicole Jews are generally defined as a descendent of Israel. It is not a requirement to believe in Judaism to make aliyah, but it is a requirement that you can trace your ancestry back to Israel. Jesus and all the disciples were jews. Moses is a jew and he rejoiced to see Jesus day. David was a jew and he prophecied of Jesus. Jacob but the seed is of Isaac first.

    MickinEngland But Judaism seems split anyway (Othodox/ Unorthodox/ Messianic/ non-Messianic etc) so the word 'Jew' means different things to different people.All I know is that the Jesus-rejecting Jews will never get to heaven or it'd be a case of "oops there goes the neighbourhood"..
    Judaism is the faith but a Jew remains the same in all four. It is only the belief that differs like with the samaritans.
     
  16. MickinEngland

    MickinEngland New Member

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    All I know is if there are Jesus-rejecters in heaven, I DON'T WANT TO GO.. [​IMG]
     
  17. Faithful

    Faithful New Member

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    (MickinEngland;16284)
    All I know is if there are Jesus-rejecters in heaven, I DON'T WANT TO GO.. [​IMG]
    Hi Mick, A little like cutting your nose off to spite your face. [​IMG]If you really believe in Jesus there is no jew or gentile why even be bothered about who else is in heaven? Surely it is enough that Gods will and judgement is perfect and he alone was sinned against. If he choses to forgive, who are we to judge.[​IMG]
     
  18. verzanumi24

    verzanumi24 Advanced Member

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    (MickinEngland;16284)
    All I know is if there are Jesus-rejecters in heaven, I DON'T WANT TO GO.. [​IMG]
    I think you might have a personal issue that you need to deal with….anyway, no one will be in the kingdom of God who refused to accept Jesus as there savior. But you need to understand that these Jesus rejecters as you call them, cannot accept Jesus unless God convicts there mind. No one ever comes to Jesus on there own...the natural mind is hostile to God, so how can it seek God?John 6:44 (KJV) 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. Romans 8:7 (KJV) 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 2 Corinthians 4:4 (KJV) 4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. 2 Corinthians 3:14 (KJV) 14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. Jeremiah 10:23 (KJV) 23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. God has committed them to unbelief because He will have mercy on them.Romans 11:32 (KJV) 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
     
  19. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    You have gotten it right......the Bible is a spiritual Book, so when we read it we need to see what is written from God's eyes. The children of Israel were a type of God's true people.....they were a shadow of the Church. Interestingly, Pentecost that the Children of Israel kept was also picturing the Church; the Church was born on the day of Pentecost.So who are the chosen people of God? Us, Christians, the Church. It is Christians who have been and is doing God's will on the earth, of which the Children as a whole failed to do. Not that God has forsaken the house of Israel, in fact the Bible shows that when we have been glorified, God will use us to bring salvation to the house of Israel, and they in turn will be a light to bring the remaining Gentiles to God.The rituals that the Israelites were commanded to observe is actually God's plan of salvation for mankind.....read it with that in mind. Study the Old Testament as you would the New (the early Church did not have the New Testament Bible, they studded the Old to learn what God's intention), it will open a whole new world to you……most of the Old Testament is prophecy, which is yet to be fulfilled.
    You seem to have a way of mixing truth, speculation, spiritual, and Literal things all together to make a mixed conclusion so difficult to follow it can not be proven in scripture. This kind of teaching makes me very Leary you could be saying anything or nothing. Every time you make a true statement you confuse it with the next statement.Im not completely disagreeing with some of what you say. But the true church(Christians) is Israel and is literally referred to as such in places and spiritual in other places .Who is Israel? the ten lost tribes. Literally, . Yet you seem to imply that Israel is part of Judah(jews) It is a mixture of literal and spiritual not always one or the other.
     
  20. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    To the rest asking who is the true Jew and how Christians relate, I think Paul was trying to elaborate on the spiritual side of the coin regarding the heart's condition and the Law. This goes back to my earlier comment about the election of grace. Of course when one thinks of the Law, they think "Jew" because that was entrusted to them. But the rest of the Israelites were never Jews, so maybe the question ought to be not so much is who is a Jew, but rather the condition of the heart that emulates that which the Jew was supposed to have been.Technically speaking, I would define a Jew as one who is of the tribe of Judah. That's the racial definition. If we are talking "religion" in the Law, then we have to realize that the Jews were not the only people that were given the Law, but in Paul's time the only ones that had custody of it since Israel was divorced and as "Gentiles" no longer had part in the Law. Therefore, if Paul wanted to bring up the point of righteousness, he naturally would have used the Jew when comparing it to the Law.
    This is the most accurate post in this whole thread not that the others are all wrong just that there are some things in most I question what you are refering to
     
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