A Vacation?

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John S

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This is going to be a very quick thread. I'm going to ask a couple of questions. There will be a few answers and then the thread will fade away.
You don't need to show Bible verses to prove the validity of your beliefs. I'm curious - that's all.
Apparently, a few (some, many, most - I have no idea) Pre-Tribbers believe that when the antichrist arrives they will be raptured. Then when the Tribulation is over, they will be returning. Here are my questions.

1. After you have been to Heaven for 7(?) years, why would anyone want to return to Earth? It doesn't make any sense. Why not just stay in Heaven?
2. Is God going to kick you out of Heaven? "Your vacation in Heaven is up - Get out. MAYBE I'll see you later".
That would be a cruel thing to do.
 

Eric E Stahl

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John S said:
This is going to be a very quick thread. I'm going to ask a couple of questions. There will be a few answers and then the thread will fade away.
You don't need to show Bible verses to prove the validity of your beliefs. I'm curious - that's all.
Apparently, a few (some, many, most - I have no idea) Pre-Tribbers believe that when the antichrist arrives they will be raptured. Then when the Tribulation is over, they will be returning. Here are my questions.

1. After you have been to Heaven for 7(?) years, why would anyone want to return to Earth? It doesn't make any sense. Why not just stay in Heaven?
2. Is God going to kick you out of Heaven? "Your vacation in Heaven is up - Get out. MAYBE I'll see you later".
That would be a cruel thing to do.
I will follow Jesus to Armageddon to kill the army of antichrist.

Revelation 19:11-21
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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John S said:
1. After you have been to Heaven for 7(?) years, why would anyone want to return to Earth? It doesn't make any sense. Why not just stay in Heaven?
2. Is God going to kick you out of Heaven? "Your vacation in Heaven is up - Get out. MAYBE I'll see you later".
That would be a cruel thing to do.
I think if you read rev 20 again you will find that it is the beheaded saints from the tribulation who reign with Jesus for 1000 years.

The "rest of the dead" do not come to life until the 1000 years are over.
 

aspen

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I think it only makes sense to Darby.
 

Arnie Manitoba

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John S said:
1. After you have been to Heaven for 7(?) years, why would anyone want to return to Earth? It doesn't make any sense. Why not just stay in Heaven?
hi John .... in fairness (as a pre-tribber) ..... I could ask the post-tribber ..... why would Jesus snatch up his church at the end of the tribulation .... only to bring them back down the same instant ???? What would be the purpose ????

Another thing to consider is if there is no pre-trib rapture that means every single christian would have to be beheaded during the tribulation in order to reign with Christ 1000 years (it is only the beheaded ones who will reign ... not "all" the Christians )

If all the Christians are to be beheaded during the tribulation .... that blows the theory of God bringing wrath upon the un-godly world .... if all the christians are slaughtered and the only living people at the end of the trib are the un-godly .... the whole wrath concept falls apart.

We pre-tribbers are not a bunch of lazy fools looking for an easy way out .... nor are we brainwashed by some broad from the 1800's like veteran claims we are .... not at all.

Instead , we became pre-tribbers because that is the only reasonable way it will piece together and work .... we also see clearly that there is a time when Jesus comes for his church .... and another time when He comes with his church

eg: ... 2 thess 2:1 ... Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him

....... this refers to the rapture ..... not the second coming ..... obviously the Thessalonians would have known if Jesus was back on earth ..... they knew he was not back yet ...... the Thessalonians were afraid they had missed out on the snatching up to the clouds of the christians (rapture) (gathering)

Sorry for the long post John S. .... I am not trying to rehash all the rapture arguments .... it has been done to death already ..... keep doing what you are doing and question the whole rapture issue from all sides.
 

Eric E Stahl

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Inorder for us to come with Jesus to save his people we must be with Jesus before he comes.



Habakkuk 3:11-13
11The sun and moon stood still in their habitation: at the light of thine arrows they went, and at the shining of thy glittering spear.

12Thou didst march through the land in indignation, thou didst thresh the heathen in anger.

13Thou wentest forth for the salvation of thy people (Israel), even for salvation with thine anointed (Saints); thou woundedst the head out of the house of the wicked, by discovering the foundation unto the neck. Selah.
 

John S

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Eric - So you would rather leave Heaven. It doesn't make any sense.

Arnie - Not every Christian will be beheaded becasue MANY of them will be decieved.

ASPEN2 - ...and to the people who believe that "stuff".
 

daq

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Eric E Stahl said:
I will follow Jesus to Armageddon to kill the army of antichrist.

Revelation 19:11-21
11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
14And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
15And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
16And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
17And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
18That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
19And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Perhaps you assume too much:

1 Timothy 6:13-16 KJV
13. I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession;
14. That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
15. Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of Lords;
16. Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Matthew 22:41-46 KJV
41. While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,
42. Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, The Son of David.
43. He saith unto them, How then doth David in spirit call him Lord, saying,
44. The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
till I make thine enemies thy footstool?
45. If David then call him Lord, how is he his son?
46. And no man was able to answer him a word, neither durst any man from that day forth ask him any more questions.

Psalms 110:1 KJV
1. The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

Psalm 110 Restored Name KJV
110:1 YHWH said unto my Master, Sit thou at my right hand,
until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
110:2 YHWH shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
110:4 YHWH hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
110:5 YHWH at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
110:6 He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies; he shall wound the heads over many countries.
110:7 He shall drink of the brook in the way: therefore shall he lift up the head.

http://yahushua.net/scriptures/psa110.htm
 

John S

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NO - The deceived WILL be the Christians. Far too many of them will believe in this Pre-Trib Doctrine.


In any event, no one is going on a vacation and then returning. I'm Sorry but that is one of the most assinine things that I have ever heard. "I'm leaving for 7 years but then I'm returning". Whoever teaches this should be banned from the pulpit.
Everyone will be here when the AC arrives. What happens then will depend on one's belief in Jesus Christ and on how much one has been deceived by the AC.
 

Rex

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Here's an interesting read it doesn't really cover how Darby introduced the modern churches interpretation of the rapture ect.
But it goes a bit deeper it explores why the RCC and the Jesuit Francisco Ribera laid the ground work for the modern interpretation found in nearly every church in the USA. If you decide to read it, I first want you to note a couple of dates, one is the date that Darby first made public is pretrib rapture (Theodosia Wingfield Powerscourt). At the conference Darby publicly described his ecclesiological and eschatological views, including the pretribulation rapture 1831-1833. His introduction of what some call dispensationalism, the term used today to describe the morphed seed Ribera planted many years ago and found its way to Darby, that's the seed that modern dispensationalism grew from. The next date is the date the RCC officially made the immaculate conception a catholic dogma (December 8, 1854)

Just remember the dates and read about something else that's been long forgotten for the most part, how to identify the anti-Christ their is only one biblical verse or way to make this identification and how it applies to the immaculate conception, in reality the immaculate conception dogma is denying Christ came in the flesh.

We have seen that the modern translations greatly favor the heretical doctrines of the Roman Catholic Church. We have further noted that this bias is not coincidence, but rather is the result of a carefully orchestrated program of scriptural sabotage engineered over four centuries chiefly by the Jesuits.

At the time of the Reformation, Protestants were united in proclaiming the Papacy to be the antichrist (1 John 4:2-3), the man of sin and son of perdition (2 Thessalonians 2:3), the little horn (Daniel 7:8), the beast with seven heads and ten horns (Revelation 13:1), Babylon (Revelation 14:8), the mother of harlots (Revelation 17:5), and the whore (Revelation 17:15). The identification was so convincing, and was verified by such powerful scriptural evidences, that the Roman Catholic Church was at a loss to deflect the charges. Eventually the Jesuit innovator Francisco Ribera succeeded in devising a theory which satisfied Roman Catholics, but its faults are apparent to any true student of God’s Word. This theory suggested that the antichrist was to be an evil, Satan-inspired individual who will appear at the end of the age and pursue the acme of apostasy through terrible persecution for three and one-half years.

Since this cunning theory lacked scriptural support, Protestants in former centuries saw it for what it was—a self-serving Roman Catholic deception. The theory was rightly given short shrift in Protestant circles. But in the nineteenth century a chink in Protestant unity on this issue became evident. The Oxford movement of England, a group of young Anglican clergymen anxious to bring their church closer to the Church of Rome, recognized that it could not be achieved while the Anglican Church maintained the Westminster Confession, which specified the papacy to be antichrist and the man of sin. Desperately seeking a solution to their problem, they lent their support to Ribera’s theory. So successful was the Oxford movement in its promotion of this flawed theory that today almost all Protestant churches, whether ritualistic or evangelical, accept it as their position. It accords well with the ecumenical motives of most Christian denominations, but it defies the plain evidence of Scripture.Thus we could anticipate that modern translations would corrupt the Scriptures to destroy the divine evidence identifying the Papacy as antichrist. They have achieved this aim.

The central heresy of antichrist is not clouded in darkness. It is the belief that Christ did not come in the flesh.
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: and every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 1 John 4:2-3

For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 2 John 7
Many protest that the Roman Catholic Church strongly supports the concept that Christ came in human flesh. In this they are correct, but in his book Facts of Faith Christian Edwardson points out:

Antichrist was not to deny that Christ had come in flesh, but was to deny that He had "come in the flesh," in "the same" kind of flesh as the human race He came to save. Christian Edwardson, Facts of Faith, Southern Publishing Association, 1943; cited in G. Burnside, The NIV and the Antichrist, 7
The Roman Catholic Church has led out in the proclamation of the false doctrine that while Christ’s flesh (nature) was human, it was nevertheless quite different from ours since it was that possessed by Adam prior to his Fall. But God declares quite differently:
Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh. Romans 1:3
For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham. Hebrews 2:16
How then do the modern translations thwart this plain truth of God? Quite simply, by corrupting the compelling biblical evidence. God informs us what is the mystery of godliness:

And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory. 1 Timothy 3:16

Let us examine how one typical modern translation renders this key text:
Beyond all question the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body. . . . 1 Timothy 3:16 NIV

We have emphasized the fact that the word God has been altered to He thus destroying a potent text which evidences Christ’s divinity. But most Bible students also overlook an equally serious omission—that the term, the flesh is rendered in the NIV as a body. The key mystery of godliness is not that Jesus appeared in a body—angels have at times done that—but that He appeared in the flesh, our flesh, the same flesh (nature) as that of David and Abraham.
Clearly the mystery of iniquity (2 Thessalonians 2:7) is the antithesis of the mystery of godliness. It is the denial that Jesus came in the flesh. This identification is confirmed by the evidence of 1 John 4:2-3 and 2 John 7 quoted above.

The New International Version confuses the matter by translating the term mystery of iniquity as secret power of lawlessness (2 Thessalonians 2:7 NIV). In such a translation the identifying evidence of the antichrist is weakened. While it is true that the New International Version does make reference to the chief identifying feature of the antichrist—

Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 2 John 7 NIV

—nevertheless this concept is replaced in the second reference by "does not acknowledge Jesus" 1 John 4:3.
This translation further diminishes the evidence that Jesus came in the flesh (nature) of fallen man. We return to the two texts cited above from the King James Version. These texts should be compared with the following translation:

regarding his Son, who as to his human nature was a descendant of David, Romans 1:3 NIV
This translation does possess the virtue of demonstrating that the term flesh as translated in the King James Version does equally refer to nature. However, the translation seriously weakens the possession of David’s fallen nature by failing to emphasize that Christ was made of the seed of David according to the flesh.
In respect of the second reference, the entire text is distorted in such a way as to make the two translations almost unrecognizable as referring to the same original. Certainly Christ’s possession of the same human nature as Abraham is entirely lost.

For surely it is not angels he helps, but Abraham’s descendants. Hebrews 2:16 NIV

Now it is true that the King James Version is forced by context and obvious intent to insert a few additional words to make plain the meaning of the text. But it is quite necessary and is demanded by the context. The translation offered by the New International Version is totally devoid of any relevance to either the preceding or succeeding verses.

Yet in all fairness we must admit that one text supporting the fallen human nature of Christ is strengthened by the New International Version translation. We shall compare the two versions.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4 KJV
For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit. Romans 8:3-4 NIV

That Rome denies that Jesus possessed a fallen nature is beyond dispute, for to sustain this unscriptural position it proclaimed the heretical doctrine of the Immaculate Conception of Mary.

The Virgin Mary, in the first instance of her conception . . . was preserved free from all stain of original sin. . . .
She was created more sublime and glorious than that of all natures. . . .
Very different from the rest of mankind. . . .

The Blessed Virgin . . . by communicating to the Second Person of the adorable trinity . . . a true human nature of the same substance with her own. . . . Catholic Belief, 214-217, quoted in G. Burnside, NIV and the Antichrist, 3

We define that the Blessed Virgin Mary in the first moment of her conception . . . was preserved free from every taint of original sin. . . .
Unlike the rest of the children of Adam, the soul of Mary was never subject to sin. Faith of Our Fathers, Cardinal Gibbons, 203-204, quoted in ibid.
The merits of Jesus, shall be dispensed through the hands and by the intercession of Mary. Glories of Mary, 180, quoted in ibid., 9
God has chosen to bestow no grace upon us but by the hands of Mary. . . . Ibid., 180
Whoever asks and wishes to obtain graces without the intercession of Mary, attempts to fly without wings. Ibid., 189
Mary is all the hope of our salvation. Ibid., 195
Thou [Mary] are the only advocate of sinners. Ibid., 129
All those who are saved, are saved solely by means of this divine mother, . . . the salvation of all depends upon preaching Mary. Ibid., 19-20
We ask many things of God and do not obtain them; we ask them from Mary and obtain them. Ibid., 150

Well may it be asked why God identified antichrist by the single criterion of the denial of the truth that Jesus came in the flesh. After all, does not Rome propose numerous disgraceful heresies such as confession to priests and saints, the baptism of infants, the doctrine of original sin which declares that we are lost because of Adam’s sin, the immaculate conception, limbo, the issuing of indulgences, and many other perversions of the Christian faith? This claim is true, and it will be found that the central doctrine upon which each of these depends is the human nature of Christ. One example will suffice to illustrate.
The Bible teaches that in order to qualify as our Mediator, Christ had to be made like unto us in every respect.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. Hebrews 2:17-18
Rome, in denying that Jesus possessed our fallen nature, not only deprive Christ of His role as our Example, but also disqualify Him from being our Mediator. Thus, they turn not only to Mary, but also to "saints" and priests to be mediators between man and God.

The merits and virtue of the sacrifice of the cross are infinite; but that virtue and these merits must be applied, and this can only be done by certain means. Doctrinal Catechism, S. Keenan, 129: New York, Kennedy and Sons, 1846

The priest has the power of the keys, or the power of delivering sinners from hell, of making them worthy of paradise, and of changing them from the slaves of Satan into the children of God. And God himself is obliged to abide by the judgment of His priests; . . . the Sovereign Master of the universe only follows the servant by confirming in heaven all that the latter decides upon earth. Dignity and Duties of the Priest, St. Alphonsus de Liguori, 27-28: New York, Benziger Brothers, 1888

Thus it is that the weakening of the identification of antichrist in the modern translations seriously reduces God’s witness and warnings concerning this power. It is lulling present-day Protestants into an ecumenical slumber which will have devastating effects upon their eternal destinies unless aroused by the power of the valid Word of God.