Abandon Faith = Abandon God = Abandon Salvation = Hell

[TEXBOW]

Perhaps you praise yourself for choosing wisely. I can't convince you. I'll be busy praising Jesus because I know He is behind it all.

If any part of us must produce and or maintain faith in order for salvation, then it is a work toward salvation. You just don't properly recognize your idea of faith as being a work.

I deny works altogether. We are saved by Grace. We receive faith from Jesus. He says He is the author and finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)



So I am supposed to believe you can choose, but can't choose. I think you are contradicting yourself again.

Yes by God's grace we are saved if we believe. Jesus's sacrifice didn't automatically save those who refuse to believe. Jesus is the Way.

Perhaps you assume. Praising myself is your fiction.

I fully expect you to name everything a works. Hyper grace followers do that. You refuse to understand that salvation produces obedience and the fruits of the Holy Spirit which you call works. If and I suspect you do follow those who believe that the cross saved you without your faith and no matter how you live your life, no matter the condition of your soul, you think you have a ticket to Heaven. Salvation without your belief and faith is necessary for the hyper-grace followers. It's how they justify living in sin and in contradiction to the scriptures. Hyper grace followers say the sinner's prayer and then put their Bible and their faith on a shelf to be ignored. Why would they not, because they are saved despite their sinful lifestyle. They have no belief in forgiveness or repentance.
Do you also ignore the New Testament outside of Pauls's epistles? Are you a hyper-grace follower?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Yes by God's grace we are saved if we believe. Jesus's sacrifice didn't automatically save those who refuse to believe. Jesus is the Way.

I think what always causes confusion on this issue is not differentiating between works of the law and good works. These are two entirely different things, one we have no responsibility to fulfill like the Jews did (i.e. circumcision, not eating unclean foods, etc), and one that is essential to the Christian faith, as where James admonished that faith without good works is dead.

It's a failure to rightly divide between the two that causes all the confusion, and the only way to start sorting it out is by taking each passage separately and pinpointing which one is being discussed. Unfortunately most don't have the time for that, though that's where you would need to go to sort through a thread like this.

 

[TEXBOW]

I think what always causes confusion on this issue is not differentiating between works of the law and good works. These are two entirely different things, one we have no responsibility to fulfill like the Jews did (i.e. circumcision, not eating unclean foods, etc), and one that is essential to the Christian faith, as where James admonished that faith without good works is dead.

It's a failure to rightly divide between the two that causes all the confusion, and the only way to start sorting it out is by taking each passage separately and pinpointing which one is being discussed. Unfortunately most don't have the time for that, though that's where you would need to go to sort through a thread like this.

I agree that there is a difference. I do not believe you work to obtain your salvation. I believe that your salvation produces obedience to the Holy Spirit which manifests itself in good works. You can't work hard enough in the law or out of the law to obtain salvation.

 

[Hidden In Him]

I agree that there is a difference. I do not believe you work to obtain your salvation. I believe that your salvation produces obedience to the Holy Spirit which manifests itself in good works. You can't work hard enough in the law or out of the law to obtain salvation.

I would put it a little differently: I believe grace taken for granted and not responded to properly can cause it to be rescinded. But it essentially boils down to about the same thing: Not salvation by works, but grace that demands a proper response.

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas! Good having you as a member here,
- H

 

[TEXBOW]

I would put it a little differently: I believe grace taken for granted and not responded to properly can cause it to be rescinded. But it essentially boils down to about the same thing: Not salvation by works, but grace that demands a proper response.

Hope you have a wonderful Christmas! Good having you as a member here,
- H

Thank you. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

 

[farouk]

Perhaps you praise yourself for choosing wisely. I can't convince you. I'll be busy praising Jesus because I know He is behind it all.

If any part of us must produce and or maintain faith in order for salvation, then it is a work toward salvation. You just don't properly recognize your idea of faith as being a work.

I deny works altogether. We are saved by Grace. We receive faith from Jesus. He says He is the author and finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)



So I am supposed to believe you can choose, but can't choose. I think you are contradicting yourself again.

@Rudometkin I often think of 'Lydia, whose heart the Lord opened' (Acts 16); Paul says to the Philippians, 'It is God that worketh in you, both to do and to will of His good pleasure'.

 

[farouk]

PS: @Rudometkin The sovereignty of God is a great subject, with plenty of Scriptural basis...

 

[Rudometkin]

Do you also ignore the New Testament outside of Pauls's epistles?

Good afternoon and late Merry Christmas. Saw your latest reply and I think some reflection is in order.

Didn't you see me refer to John's New Testament book to answer your question on the first page? Or did you ignore it? If you didn't ignore it, then why did you just ask me if I ignore the New Testament outside of Paul's epistles?

Are you a hyper-grace follower?

Sure I am a hyper-grace believer, but I don't follow your definition. You described what I call Easy-Belief-ism. That is, say a prayer and put the book on your shelf believing you are saved. See, I believe the saved are destined to truly repent and come to Jesus.

Hyper grace followers say the sinner's prayer and then put their Bible and their faith on a shelf to be ignored. Why would they not, because they are saved despite their sinful lifestyle. They have no belief in forgiveness or repentance.

I'm afraid you're telling on yourself. Would you desire to stay in your sinful lifestyle if you knew you didn't have to do anything to be saved?

You refuse to understand that salvation produces obedience and the fruits of the Holy Spirit which you call works.

You misunderstood my position. My position is that these works are a result of salvation, but not the means to it. I still believe you're pushing for a works based salvation which means you better do your best to stay saved. Your Jesus won't do all the work for you. My Jesus finished it all on the cross for me.

 

[Nancy]

Man can deny. So what? Since when has reality been based on what man says? Man is deceitful. Even Peter lied and denied Christ. (Matthew 26:69-75) That didn't make it true that he didn't know Christ. It just made him a liar.

Do you concur? Or do you suggest Peter was no longer saved when he denied Jesus three times? Did Peter pluck himself from Jesus' hand?




No. Some will depart from the faith. But in what sense? John says there were those with us who were never really part of us. They depart from the faith. Peter even left for a time but came back because he was truly saved. He departed from the faith. Is your theology too shallow to account for these instances, or have we just not yet come to that part of the discussion?

If salvation is a wish-washy process and has grounding on the performance of men, then those who persevere logically have glory in being saved. God says He will not share in His glory. (Isaiah 42:8) Surely He did not design salvation in such a way for men to have glory. Salvation is by grace. (Ephesians 2:8) By grace, therefore not by anything we do.

Hi brother...remember that Peter did not have the Holy Spirit within him yet when he denied Christ 3 times. After the upper room, he became bold as ever!

God does not change, Amen!
Here is some scripture that leads me to believe that we CAN walk away:

1 Cor 15:1-2 •
"You are saved, if you hold fast to that word (the gospel)
which was preached to you, unless you believed in vain."

Heb 3:12-19
"We have become partakers of Christ, if we continue to believe steadfast to the end. But, beware of an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God by developing
an evil heart of unbelief, hardened through the deceitfulness of sin …"
The OT. saints did this...

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 "For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."

Heb 10:36-39
"The just shall live by faith, but if anyone draws back, they draw back to perdition. But, those who endure in continuing to believe, do so to the saving of their souls."

2 Pet 2:20-21
"If Christians (added) are again entangled in sin and overcome by them,
the latter end for them is worse than it was before they were saved."

Gosh, there are SO MANY verses pertaining to the loss of your salvation. Perseverance, continuing in the race set before us...keep on getting up when we fall, repent as many times is necessary with tears if possible!

JMHO. Think I'm going to look for a decent movie to watch...

 

[TEXBOW]

Good afternoon and late Merry Christmas. Saw your latest reply and I think some reflection is in order.

Didn't you see me refer to John's New Testament book to answer your question on the first page? Or did you ignore it? If you didn't ignore it, then why did you just ask me if I ignore the New Testament outside of Paul's epistles?



Sure I am a hyper-grace believer, but I don't follow your definition. You described what I call Easy-Belief-ism. That is, say a prayer and put the book on your shelf believing you are saved. See, I believe the saved are destined to truly repent and come to Jesus.



I'm afraid you're telling on yourself. Would you desire to stay in your sinful lifestyle if you knew you didn't have to do anything to be saved?



You misunderstood my position. My position is that these works are a result of salvation, but not the means to it. I still believe you're pushing for a works based salvation which means you better do your best to stay saved. Your Jesus won't do all the work for you. My Jesus finished it all on the cross for me.

My apologies if I misunderstood your position. Salvation is by faith alone. Works are evidence of your salvation. The casting off the old man and demoting the flesh to walk in the Spirit.

 

[friend of]

keep on getting up when we fall, repent as many times is necessary with tears if possible

And in the end, that is what separates those who are in Christ v. Those who only make a pretense of religion.