Abandon Faith = Abandon God = Abandon Salvation = Hell

[TEXBOW]

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

1 Timothy 4:11
These things command and teach.

Paul in his letter to Timothy providing instructions on proclaiming the Gospel gives us a clear understanding that it's possible to depart from the faith. A faith once had. This is why Paul warns over and over again to be aware of false prophets. When you depart from the faith and attach yourself to doctrines of devils your not going to make it to Heaven. This confirms the false belief in OSAS. God's promises to the faithful are true, those who remain in the flock are protected but those who abandon the faith are no longer heirs. One would have to believe that you can abandon your faith, take up doctrines of devils, and still be saved. Good luck with digesting that within your heart.

Paul goes on to tell Timothy of other behaviors men will take, lies in hypocrisy (have you noticed all the hypocrisy lately), forbidding to marry, and other things so do not try and excuse Pauls message to Timothy as some post-rapture behavior, he is clearly not talking about tribulation behavior. Those who have faith will be long gone by then. A foolish twisting of scripture. (some will try).

Paul tells Timothy to Take head to YOURSELF and to the doctrine. Continue in them, for in doing this you will save both yourself and those who hear you. 1 Timothy 4:16.

It's clear that Timothy is already a follower of Christ (saved) at the time of Paul's letter so we see that Paul tells him to Continue in them because if he does so it will save himself. If Timothy was sealed (OSAS) why is Paul telling him to continue to save himself? Because OSAS is false teaching.

 

[Rudometkin]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Hey Texbow, what does Jesus say about salvation? and where is He in salvation?

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Thank God for this message. But as you were arguing...those who come to him may perish...if...?

 

[TEXBOW]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Hey Texbow, what does Jesus say about salvation? and where is He in salvation?

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Thank God for this message. But as you were arguing...those who come to him may perish...if...?

It is my belief that if we are servants and followers of Jesus he will never cast us out or allow us to be plucked out. It does look to me that Paul is telling us that we can by our own election depart from the faith.

 

[Rudometkin]

It is my belief that if we are servants and followers of Jesus he will never cast us out or allow us to be plucked out. It does look to me that Paul is telling us that we can by our own election depart from the faith.

Jesus says those who come to Him will never perish, but Paul says those who come to Jesus may perish under certain circumstances.

This is what you figure. Is that a fair assessment of your view?

 

[TEXBOW]

Jesus says those who come to Him will never perish, but Paul says those who come to Jesus may perish under certain circumstances.

This is what you figure. Is that a fair assessment of your view?

My view is that those who remain in the flock will not perish but those who depart will perish. There are several verses in the Bible that speak of salvation (how to be saved). We know that John 3:16 is different than Acts 2:38 and Romans 10:9-11. They are all true but not all are verses about salvation mention things that are obvious. For example, Jesus does not say those that come to him truthfully will never perish. It is implied and obvious one must be truthful in their faith in order not to perish. There is no contradiction in the pathway to salvation only delivered differently by different authors.

 

[Rudometkin]

My view is that those who remain in the flock will not perish but those who depart will perish.

John says those who depart were never really of us. If they were of us, they would have continued with us. (1 John 2:19) This is because the truly saved have the sealed promise of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14) But even the saved can waver.

There are several verses in the Bible that speak of salvation (how to be saved). We know that John 3:16 is different than Acts 2:38 and Romans 10:9-11. They are all true but not all are verses about salvation mention things that are obvious. For example, Jesus does not say those that come to him truthfully will never perish. It is implied and obvious one must be truthful in their faith in order not to perish. There is no contradiction in the pathway to salvation only delivered differently by different authors.

So we must piece all truths together to see the complete picture. Jesus says the Father gave us to Him, and they will never perish. (John 6:37) But you say they may escape and perish anyway? I'm trying to be fair in my assessment.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Jesus says no man shall pluck a man out of His hand. Your view is that man can pluck Himself out of Jesus' hand. Is that a fair assessment of your view?

 

[TEXBOW]

John says those who depart were never really of us. If they were of us, they would have continued with us. (1 John 2:19) This is because the truly saved have the sealed promise of the Holy Spirit. (Ephesians 1:13-14) But even the saved can waver.



So we must piece all truths together to see the complete picture. Jesus says the Father gave us to Him, and they will never perish. (John 6:37) But you say they may escape and perish anyway? I'm trying to be fair in my assessment.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Jesus says no man shall pluck a man out of His hand. Your view is that man can pluck Himself out of Jesus' hand. Is that a fair assessment of your view?

Man can deny that he is in Jesus's hand. He can confess that he is not in need of Jesus's hand.
Is it your assessment that 1 Timothy 4:1 is a lie? That some will not depart from the faith?

 

[Rudometkin]

Man can deny that he is in Jesus's hand. He can confess that he is not in need of Jesus's hand.

Man can deny. So what? Since when has reality been based on what man says? Man is deceitful. Even Peter lied and denied Christ. (Matthew 26:69-75) That didn't make it true that he didn't know Christ. It just made him a liar.

Do you concur? Or do you suggest Peter was no longer saved when he denied Jesus three times? Did Peter pluck himself from Jesus' hand?

Is it your assessment that 1 Timothy 4:1 is a lie? That some will not depart from the faith?

No. Some will depart from the faith. But in what sense? John says there were those with us who were never really part of us. They depart from the faith. Peter even left for a time but came back because he was truly saved. He departed from the faith. Is your theology too shallow to account for these instances, or have we just not yet come to that part of the discussion?

If salvation is a wish-washy process and has grounding on the performance of men, then those who persevere logically have glory in being saved. God says He will not share in His glory. (Isaiah 42:8) Surely He did not design salvation in such a way for men to have glory. Salvation is by grace. (Ephesians 2:8) By grace, therefore not by anything we do.

 

[TEXBOW]

Man can deny. So what? Since when has reality been based on what man says? Man is deceitful. Even Peter lied and denied Christ. (Matthew 26:69-75) That didn't make it true that he didn't know Christ. It just made him a liar.

Do you concur? Or do you suggest Peter was no longer saved when he denied Jesus three times? Did Peter pluck himself from Jesus' hand?




No. Some will depart from the faith. But in what sense? John says there were those with us who were never really part of us. They depart from the faith. Peter even left for a time but came back because he was truly saved. He departed from the faith. Is your theology too shallow to account for these instances, or have we just not yet come to that part of the discussion?

If salvation is a wish-washy process and has grounding on the performance of men, then those who persevere logically have glory in being saved. God says He will not share in His glory. (Isaiah 42:8) Surely He did not design salvation in such a way for men to have glory. Salvation is by grace. (Ephesians 2:8) By grace, therefore not by anything we do.

It is true that grace is a gift from God and not based upon anything we do but we must accept it. It is not forced upon us. Paul reminds us to examine ourselves (he was talking to the Church), to be steadfast, not to be deceived, not to disqualify ourselves from the Kingdom by committing
certain sins. Our salvation is by faith, works are evidence of our salvation not how we obtain salvation. We will have to agree to disagree. I've come across others who think that once they said the sinner's prayer they could go about life without concern of God's judgment. I don't think it's going to work out for them.

 

[farouk]

Jesus says those who come to Him will never perish, but Paul says those who come to Jesus may perish under certain circumstances.

This is what you figure. Is that a fair assessment of your view?

@Rudometkin Romans 8.38-39 about the eternal security of the true believer in the Lord Jesus is rather clear....

 

[farouk]

It is true that grace is a gift from God and not based upon anything we do but we must accept it. It is not forced upon us. Paul reminds us to examine ourselves (he was talking to the Church), to be steadfast, not to be deceived, not to disqualify ourselves from the Kingdom by committing
certain sins. Our salvation is by faith, works are evidence of our salvation not how we obtain salvation. We will have to agree to disagree. I've come across others who think that once they said the sinner's prayer they could go about life without concern of God's judgment. I don't think it's going to work out for them.

Perhaps the mistake is to imagine that just repeating some formula such as the so called sinner's prayer by rote, supposedly effects the new birth. Instead there does need to be a work of the Spirit there: John 3.

 

[farouk]

If salvation is a wish-washy process and has grounding on the performance of men, then those who persevere logically have glory in being saved. God says He will not share in His glory. (Isaiah 42:8) Surely He did not design salvation in such a way for men to have glory. Salvation is by grace. (Ephesians 2:8) By grace, therefore not by anything we do.

@Rudometkin Great post there. I wish more preachers believed and preached this...

 

[GRACE ambassador]

op: "Abandon faith = Abandon God = Abandon Salvation = hell"?
My First thought = this "statement" = Eliminates osas = Correct?
Oh, I see you Confirmed my suspicion:

This confirms the false belief in OSAS.

Precious friend, this "one can be TRULY saved, BUT then (on "IF conditions"),
Can be TRULY LOST," presents Three Major Scriptural problems:

1) makes man his own saviour, Instead Of CHRIST (By The Merits
Of HIS (God's) Precious BLOOD, And Resurrection) "THE Saviour!"

2) Denies The "Foreknowledge/Choosing/Knowledge" of God:

(a) "God’s SURE Foundation Has THIS SEAL”:

“The LORD Knoweth them that Are HIS!..." (2 Timothy 2:19 KJB!),
The "TRULY saved," Correct?

(b) HOW LONG Has "The LORD KNOWN them That Are HIS Own"?
(Ephesians 1:4-6 KJB!) = ALWAYS, Correct?

(c) For those who are LOST, how is it That The LORD Said Unto them:

“I NEVER Knew you”? (Matthew 7:21-23 KJB!) = NEVER, Correct?

You do not wish to explain the Contradictory teaching: "Christ Says He ALWAYS
KNEW" the TRULY saved, but they LOST salvation, so THEN, "HE says HE
NEVER KNEW them." do you, Precious friend??? UNscriptural, Correct? ​

3) Denies About TWELVE Dozen Plain And Clear Scriptures
Of "What God Does When Granting us UNdeserving sinners
HIS FREE Gift Of ETERNAL Life!":

God's OPERATION On All HIS New-born babes In CHRIST!
God's Eternal Assurance

-------------------------------
(2 Timothy 2:15; Romans 16:25; Ephesians 3:9 = Grace/Mystery fellowship
{Romans - Philemon}, For ALL “to SEE,” today,?)

Please Be Richly Encouraged, Enlightened, Exhorted, and Edified!
God's Simple Will!

 

[farouk]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Hey Texbow, what does Jesus say about salvation? and where is He in salvation?

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Thank God for this message. But as you were arguing...those who come to him may perish...if...?

@Rudometkin Wonderful statements of the Lord Jesus in John's Gospel there. Good if ppl would just accept them, rather than over-theorize.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. (1 John 2:19)

Hey Texbow, what does Jesus say about salvation? and where is He in salvation?

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. (John 6:37)

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (John 10:28)

Thank God for this message. But as you were arguing...those who come to him may perish...if...?

this says it all..

Many are in our churches and walking the walk, But they never had faith. As such, never being born again, they never experienced Gods full love. and in the end, they determined God was not trustworthy and left..

 

[michaelvpardo]

@Rudometkin Romans 8.38-39 about the eternal security of the true believer in the Lord Jesus is rather clear....

Its clear to you. Its clear to me, but it obviously isn't clear to everyone. Some folks also believe that reciting a sinners prayer saves them, but such a prayer is worthless if it isn't said in faith. I prayed that prayer as a child when I found a tract in my Halloween candy. I wanted to believe that it was true, but with my RCC instruction, I couldn't see how salvation could be so simple and my prayer was with doubt.

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. James 1:6-8
In context, these verses are about asking for wisdom, but I'm pretty sure that verse 7 and 8 would apply to any prayer.
I know that as a child, the prayer didn't change me at all, but when I understood the gospel and prayed a similar prayer at the age of 39 and in faith, everything in my life changed.
My experience isn't a proof of anything, but scripture confirms itself consistently in my life, and learning the hard way is better than never learning at all.
I'm inclined to believe that theologians consistently underestimate the grace of God as well.
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11
I've never heard these verses preached from a pulpit or satisfactorily interpreted.
Then there's this:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:14-15
Is the new Jerusalem in the midst of Hell? If the verses are symbolic, symbolic of what?
Then there's the open ended invitation that follows:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17
This unconditional invitation is from both the Spirit and the bride, so who is being invited to drink of the water of life and when does it apply?
I think that our accepted doctrines fall short of explaining eschatological events. I suppose that we'll all see soon enough.

 

[farouk]

Its clear to you. Its clear to me, but it obviously isn't clear to everyone. Some folks also believe that reciting a sinners prayer saves them, but such a prayer is worthless if it isn't said in faith. I prayed that prayer as a child when I found a tract in my Halloween candy. I wanted to believe that it was true, but with my RCC instruction, I couldn't see how salvation could be so simple and my prayer was with doubt.

6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. 7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; 8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways. James 1:6-8
In context, these verses are about asking for wisdom, but I'm pretty sure that verse 7 and 8 would apply to any prayer.
I know that as a child, the prayer didn't change me at all, but when I understood the gospel and prayed a similar prayer at the age of 39 and in faith, everything in my life changed.
My experience isn't a proof of anything, but scripture confirms itself consistently in my life, and learning the hard way is better than never learning at all.
I'm inclined to believe that theologians consistently underestimate the grace of God as well.
10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. 11 These things command and teach. 1 Timothy 4:10-11
I've never heard these verses preached from a pulpit or satisfactorily interpreted.
Then there's this:
14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. 15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. Revelation 22:14-15
Is the new Jerusalem in the midst of Hell? If the verses are symbolic, symbolic of what?
Then there's the open ended invitation that follows:
17 And the Spirit and the bride say, “Come!” And let him who hears say, “Come!” And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. Revelation 22:17
This unconditional invitation is from both the Spirit and the bride, so who is being invited to drink of the water of life and when does it apply?
I think that our accepted doctrines fall short of explaining eschatological events. I suppose that we'll all see soon enough.

I guess it shows how logic and theorizing can produce all sorts of different responses compared with those from a strong context of prayer and Scripture mediation and reading.

 

[Rudometkin]

It is true that grace is a gift from God and not based upon anything we do but we must accept it. It is not forced upon us.

"But we must accept it. It is not forced upon us." Then it is based on our acceptance. You're making salvation dependent on us again. You are contradicting yourself. Either salvation depends on us or it doesn't depend on us. You agree with grace alone and you argue against it in the same sentence.

Salvation is of the LORD. (Psalms 3:8) No one can stop His hand. (Daniel 4:35) What does that mean to you?

In terms of our ability in salvation, Jesus talks about us less like we are free agents and more like we are His pawns in chess. "All that the Father giveth me I will in no wise cast out." We can't convince Him to cast us out. We are in the palm of His hand, delivered to salvation. All men are powerless in the hands of the Lord. He gives life to sinners, and all they can do about it is live. But your free will belief exalts man far greater than Jesus ever did.

You are told that the Father hands you to Jesus, and Jesus saves you. But are you not arguing that we can stop God's saving hand by working against Him? No one stops God's hand, not by force nor by will. God works the hearts of men. (Proverbs 21:1) Your heart can't work Him, that would be the deceptive consequence of free will. Free will says God works according to your will, that He puts you somewhere depending on where you choose for yourself. What does God say? We are regarded as nothing. (Daniel 4:35) "God does all things according to His will." (Ephesians 1:11) Do you suggest His will is that we choose for ourselves? He says He declares the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46:10)

You are convinced in interpreting Paul's message to mean that you are an agent free to lose your salvation, but you live according to God. Both Salvation and Damnation have God's hands all over them. Do you disagree?

When God saves you, He doesn't put your existence on His level. He doesn't put you in the driver's seat. He doesn't respect you. (Romans 2:11) He saves you for His own purpose, and you will bow your knees when He makes you bow your knees. You can't leave His grasp. You can't put yourself into His hand and you can't escape from His hand. No man could. This is all about God using you to glorify Himself. It's not centered around you. You will serve the purpose He created you for. (Proverbs 16:4) Satan wants you to believe otherwise.

Perhaps our lack of control should strike a healthy fear of God, so that instead of trying to work ourselves into salvation, all we can do is come to Him for forgiveness. That's something that took part when God drove me to repentance. I knew there was nothing I could do to save myself, so I hoped in Him. Now regardless of what I lack, atleast I can continue to preach His Grace and Sovereignty. Look, you're teaching an unknown number of people that Christ doesn't eternally save them when they come to Him by the Father, that their future is in their own hands. That they can do something to escape salvation. At that point, Christ doesn't save sinners, but sinners save themselves through Christ by their own perseverance. That's a poor consequence. Beware, you put Christ in the backseat. Regardless of whether you admit it, you have taught that your salvation is contingent on you. You're man-centered. A God-centered message says that Salvation is contingent on God alone. Christ alone. Thanks for this thread, because I love glorifying God.

You can interpret Scripture differently than me, but which interpretation exalts man, and which exalts God? (John 3:30)

 

[TEXBOW]

"But we must accept it. It is not forced upon us." Then it is based on our acceptance. You're making salvation dependent on us again. You are contradicting yourself. Either salvation depends on us or it doesn't depend on us. You agree with grace alone and you argue against it in the same sentence.

Salvation is of the LORD. (Psalms 3:8) No one can stop His hand. (Daniel 4:35) What does that mean to you?

In terms of our ability in salvation, Jesus talks about us less like we are free agents and more like we are His pawns in chess. "All that the Father giveth me I will in no wise cast out." We can't convince Him to cast us out. We are in the palm of His hand, delivered to salvation. All men are powerless in the hands of the Lord. He gives life to sinners, and all they can do about it is live. But your free will belief exalts man far greater than Jesus ever did.

You are told that the Father hands you to Jesus, and Jesus saves you. But are you not arguing that we can stop God's saving hand by working against Him? No one stops God's hand, not by force nor by will. God works the hearts of men. (Proverbs 21:1) Your heart can't work Him, that would be the deceptive consequence of free will. Free will says God works according to your will, that He puts you somewhere depending on where you choose for yourself. What does God say? We are regarded as nothing. (Daniel 4:35) "God does all things according to His will." (Ephesians 1:11) Do you suggest His will is that we choose for ourselves? He says He declares the end from the beginning. (Isaiah 46:10)

You are convinced in interpreting Paul's message to mean that you are an agent free to lose your salvation, but you live according to God. Both Salvation and Damnation have God's hands all over them. Do you disagree?

When God saves you, He doesn't put your existence on His level. He doesn't put you in the driver's seat. He doesn't respect you. (Romans 2:11) He saves you for His own purpose, and you will bow your knees when He makes you bow your knees. You can't leave His grasp. You can't put yourself into His hand and you can't escape from His hand. No man could. This is all about God using you to glorify Himself. It's not centered around you. You will serve the purpose He created you for. (Proverbs 16:4) Satan wants you to believe otherwise.

Perhaps our lack of control should strike a healthy fear of God, so that instead of trying to work ourselves into salvation, all we can do is come to Him for forgiveness. That's something that took part when God drove me to repentance. I knew there was nothing I could do to save myself, so I hoped in Him. Now regardless of what I lack, atleast I can continue to preach His Grace and Sovereignty. Look, you're teaching an unknown number of people that Christ doesn't eternally save them when they come to Him by the Father, that their future is in their own hands. That they can do something to escape salvation. At that point, Christ doesn't save sinners, but sinners save themselves through Christ by their own perseverance. That's a poor consequence. Beware, you put Christ in the backseat. Regardless of whether you admit it, you have taught that your salvation is contingent on you. You're man-centered. A God-centered message says that Salvation is contingent on God alone. Christ alone. Thanks for this thread, because I love glorifying God.

You can interpret Scripture differently than me, but which interpretation exalts man, and which exalts God? (John 3:30)

I do not think God made Eve sin. I do not think God makes forces you to have faith. I do not define belief and faith as a work toward salvation. God didn't force a person to become a rapist nor did he force a missionary to dedicate their lives to mission work. God did not make man without the free will to choose. Some will choose wisely some will not. If I understand your view you think God forced you to believe, you had nothing to do with your belief. I can't accept that.

 

[Rudometkin]

I do not think God made Eve sin. I do not think God makes forces you to have faith. I do not define belief and faith as a work toward salvation. God didn't force a person to become a rapist nor did he force a missionary to dedicate their lives to mission work. God did not make man without the free will to choose. Some will choose wisely some will not. If I understand your view you think God forced you to believe, you had nothing to do with your belief. I can't accept that.

Perhaps you praise yourself for choosing wisely. I can't convince you. I'll be busy praising Jesus because I know He is behind it all.

If any part of us must produce and or maintain faith in order for salvation, then it is a work toward salvation. You just don't properly recognize your idea of faith as being a work.

I deny works altogether. We are saved by Grace. We receive faith from Jesus. He says He is the author and finisher of our faith. (Hebrews 12:2)

I can't accept that

So I am supposed to believe you can choose, but can't choose. I think you are contradicting yourself again.