About Hebrews' warning: Do not draw back to perdition

[Zachary]

The distinguished author of Hebrews gives 5 big-time warnings to born-again brethren
(and back in those days, many/most of them were also baptized with the Holy Spirit).
One of the 5 warnings is this intreging passage …

Hebrews 10 (NKJV):
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts
sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,
for He who promised is faithful.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation
which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony
of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
34 … knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession
for yourselves in heaven.
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry.
38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

First, let us consider the last part of “the promise” (v.36) to the brethren,
which is … If anyone “draws back”, God has no pleasure in him (v.38).
Then in v.39, the writer talks about those who draw back to perdition (hell).
Therefore, we should consider what it means to draw back.

The writer tells us the opposite of falling back is:
• to draw near with a true heart (v.22)
• to hold fast your confession (of faith) without wavering (v.23)
• to not sin willfully (v.26)
• to not cast away your confidence (v.35)
• to endure (v.36)
• to do the will of God (v.36)
• to live by faith (v.38)

If you draw back from something, you first must have that something!
In this case, if you have something that keeps you out of hell,
and you choose to draw back from it, then you’re on your way to hell again!

And BTW, the writer really has NO idea who might draw back (fall away)!
He is simply following the Pauline method of encouraging, exhorting, etc.
He is saying that some brethren (somewhere) draw back (fall away),
but not these wonderful brethren to whom he is writing. Nonsense!
As with Paul, the method is to give warnings which are tactfully veiled,
and it is up to the Holy Spirit to reveal spiritual Truth to those who are open.

“God has promised to reward us. But we must persevere, and we
must continue to do the will of God with perseverance until the end;
otherwise we shall lose our reward. We shall lose what He has
promised … Therefore, let us not shrink back. Because if we do,
we will not only lose our reward (v.36); we will also be destroyed
(see Mark 8:35, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19).”
(The Applied NT Commentary, Dr. Thomas Holt, Spirit-filled missionary)

 

[ATP]

If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy?

Question: "If our salvation is eternally secure, why does the Bible warn so strongly against apostasy?"

Answer: The Bible teaches that everyone who is born again by the power of the Holy Spirit is saved forever. We receive the gift of eternal life (John 10:28), not temporary life. Someone who is born again (John 3:3) cannot be “unborn.” After being adopted into God’s family (Romans 8:15), we will not be kicked out. When God starts a work, He finishes it (Philippians 1:6). So, the child of God—the believer in Jesus Christ—is eternally secure in his salvation.

However, the Bible also contains some strong warnings against apostasy. These warnings have led some to doubt the doctrine of eternal security. After all, if we cannot lose our salvation, why are we warned against falling away from the Lord? This is a good question. First, we must understand what is meant by “apostasy.”

An apostate is someone who abandons his religious faith. It is clear from the Bible that apostates are people who made professions of faith in Jesus Christ but never genuinely received Him as Savior. They were pretend believers. Those who turn away from Christ never really trusted Him to begin with, as 1 John 2:19 says, “They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.” Those who apostatize are simply demonstrating that they are not true believers, and they never were.

The Parable of the Wheat and the Tares (Matthew 13:24–30) provides a simple illustration of apostasy. In the same field were growing wheat and “false wheat” (tares or weeds). At first, the difference between the two types of plants was undetectable, but as time went on, the weeds were seen for what they were. In the same way, in any given church today, there may be true, born-again believers side by side with pretenders—those who enjoy the messages, the music, and the fellowship but have never repented of their sins and accepted Christ by faith. To any human observer, the true believer and the pretender look identical. Only God can see the heart. Matthew 13:1–9 (the Parable of the Sower) is another illustration of apostasy in action.

The Bible’s warnings against apostasy exist because there are two types of religious people: believers and unbelievers. In any church there are those who truly know Christ and those who are going through the motions. Wearing the label “Christian” does not guarantee a change of heart. It is possible to hear the Word, and even agree with its truth, without taking it to heart. It is possible to attend church, serve in a ministry, and call yourself a Christian—and still be unsaved (Matthew 7:21–23). As the prophet said, “These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me” (Isaiah 29:13; cf. Mark 7:6).

God warns the pretender who sits in the pew and hears the gospel Sunday after Sunday that he is playing with fire. Eventually, a pretender will apostatize—he will “fall away” from the faith he once professed—if he does not repent. Like the tares among the wheat, his true nature will be manifest.

The passages warning against apostasy serve two primary purposes. First, they exhort everyone to be sure of their salvation. One’s eternal destiny is not a trifling matter. Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 13:5 to examine ourselves to see whether we are “in the faith.”

One test of true faith is love for others (1 John 4:7–8). Another is good works. Anyone can claim to be a Christian, but those who are truly saved will bear “fruit.” A true Christian will show, through words, actions, and doctrine, that he follows the Lord. Christians bear fruit in varying degrees based on their level of obedience and their spiritual gifts, but all Christians bear fruit as the Spirit produces it in them (Galatians 5:22–23). Just as true followers of Jesus Christ will be able to see evidence of their salvation (see 1 John 4:13), apostates will eventually be made known by their fruit (Matthew 7:16–20) or lack thereof (John 15:2).

The second purpose for the Bible’s warnings against apostasy is to equip the church to identify apostates. They can be known by their rejection of Christ, acceptance of heresy, and carnal nature (2 Peter 2:1–3).

The biblical warnings against apostasy, therefore, are warnings to those who are under the umbrella of “faith” without ever having truly exercised faith. Scriptures such as Hebrews 6:4–6 and Hebrews 10:26–29 are warnings to “pretend” believers that they need to examine themselves before it’s too late. Matthew 7:22–23 indicates that “pretend believers” whom the Lord rejects on Judgment Day are rejected not because they “lost faith” but because the Lord never knew them. They never had a relationship with Him.

There are many people who love religion for religion’s sake and are willing to identify themselves with Jesus and the church. Who wouldn’t want eternal life and blessing? However, Jesus warns us to “count the cost” of discipleship (Luke 9:23–26; 14:25–33). True believers have counted the cost and made the commitment; apostates fail to do so. Apostates had a profession of faith at one time but not the possession of faith. Their mouths spoke something other than what their hearts believed. Apostasy is not loss of salvation but evidence of past pretension.

http://www.gotquestions.org/apostasy-salvation.html

- ATP

 

[ATP]

As believers in Christ we should be aware of two covenants being spoken of in the Book of Hebrews, chapters 7, 8, 9, 10, 12 and 13. By using proper hermeneutics we can put into detail what verse is describing what covenant, old or new. Let's dive right in, shall we...

Heb 8:6 NIV But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises.

HEB 6:1-6, HEB 10:29-31 CONTRADICTIONS WITH NON-OSAS

Heb 6:1 NIV, Heb 6:6 NIV Contradiction - "Repentance that leads to death" is referring to the sacrifices of animals in the OT.

Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible - repentance from dead works, does not intend evangelical repentance, the doctrine of which is to be ministerially laid, and the grace itself to be exercised over and over again; but a repentance which arose from, and was signified by the sacrifices of slain beasts; for by them the Jews were taught the doctrine of repentance, as well as remission of sin; and in and over them did they confess their iniquities; yea, every beast that was slain for sacrifice carried in it a conviction of sin, an acknowledgment of guilt; and it was tacitly owning, that they, for whom the creature was slain, deserved to be treated as that was, and die as that did. So the Jews (f) say,

"when a man sacrifices a beast, he thinks in his own heart, I am rather a beast than this; for I am he that hath sinned, and for the sin which I have committed I bring this; and it is more fitting that the man should be sacrificed rather than the beast; and so it appears that, , "by the means of his offering he repents".''

But now, under the Gospel dispensation, believing Jews, as these were to whom the apostle writes, were not to learn the doctrine of repentance from slain beasts, or to signify it in this way; since repentance and remission of sins were preached most clearly to them in the name of Christ: nor were they to lay again another part of this foundation, or a second article of the Jewish creed,

Heb 6:4-5 NIV Contradiction - http://www.rj-anders...cs/hebrews.html

Heb 6:6 NIV Contradiction - They fell away because they had no root, seed, and truth of salvation, which is Jesus Christ. Either you are born again or you are not...Matt 13:20-23 NIV, Luke 8:11 NIV, John 10:25-30 NIV, Rom 11:20 NIV, Rom 11:23 NIV, 1 Cor 15:54-57 NIV, Eph 1:13-14 NIV, 1 Pet 1:23 NIV / Psalm 106:1 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 2 John 1:2 NIV, Rev 5:5 NIV, Rev 22:16 NIV

Heb 6:6 NIV Contradiction - It's impossible to crucify the Son of God all over again when Jesus already paid the sin debt as a one time sacrifice for sins. Once you come to faith and believe in the resurrection you are saved until redemption...Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Heb 10:26 NIV Contradiction - "Deliberately keep on sinning" is describing nonbelievers, not believers...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 Tim 1:8-11 NIV, 1 John 3:6 NIV, 1 John 3:9 NIV, 1 John 5:18 NIV

Heb 10:26 NIV Contradiction - Nonbelievers are known to have the knowledge of God, the knowledge of truth, or knowing God but not accepting His salvation. Apostates are not born again christians...Matt 7:15 NIV, Matt 10:16 NIV, Matt 24:11 NIV, Matt 24:24 NIV, John 10:12 NIV, Acts 20:25-30 NIV, Rom 1:18-32 NIV, Rom 16:17 NIV, 1 Tim 6:20 NIV, 2 Tim 3:5 NIV, 2 Pet 2:1 NIV, 2 Pet 2:20 NIV, 1 John 2:18-19 NIV, 1 John 4:1 NIV, Jude 1:4-5 NIV

Heb 10:26 NIV Contradiction - It's impossible for there to be no sacrifice for sins left when Jesus already paid the sin debt as a one time sacrifice for sins. Once you come to faith and believe in the resurrection you are saved until redemption...Psalm 130:3-4 NIV, Rom 4:7-8 NIV, Rom 6:10 NIV, 1 Cor 15:12-19 NIV, 2 Cor 5:18-20 NIV, Col 2:13-15 NIV, Heb 7:23-25 NIV, Heb 7:27 NIV, Heb 9:12 NIV, Heb 9:24-28 NIV, Heb 10:10-14 NIV, 1 Pet 3:18 NIV

Heb 10:27 NIV Contradiction - This passage is referring to the wrath of God, but believers are no longer appointed to wrath...Job 21:30 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 12:1-2 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Eph 2:3 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV

Heb 10:27 NIV Contradiction - This passage says God's wrath will consume His enemies, but believers are no longer enemies of God...Nahum 1:2 ESV, Rom 5:10-11 NIV, Rom 11:28 NIV, Rom 12:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:27 NIV

Heb 10:28 NIV Contradiction - Believers are no longer under the law but under grace, which is the "new covenant"...Rom 6:14 NIV, 1 Cor 11:25 NIV, 2 Cor 3:6 NIV, Heb 8:6 NIV, Heb 8:13 NIV, Heb 9:15 NIV, Heb 12:24 NIV

Heb 10:29 NIV Contradiction - This passage is referring to OT sanctification through the blood of animals. The Mosaic covenant was ratified with blood; and with that blood both the tabernacle with all its vessels, and the people who worshiped before it were sanctified and set apart as holy to the Lord. The covenant of grace however is ratified with the blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Moses took from the offerings half of the blood and put it in bowls and the other half he sprinkled on the altar. He read to the people the book of the covenant and once again they all responded, "All that the LORD has said we will do" (Exod 24:7 NIV). Hearing once more their pledge of obedience to the Lord, Moses sprinkled the people with the blood, saying, ‘"This is the blood of the covenant which the LORD has made with you according to all these words"’ (Exod 24:8 NIV). This was a very solemn moment in their national history, for with this sprinkling of the blood and their promise to be obedient, the covenant was ratified and they were sanctified as the people of God (Heb 9:19-20 NIV, Heb 10:29 NIV). As His people, they would be governed by Him according to the commandments and statutes that He had given to them.

Heb 10:30-31 NIV Contradiction - These passages are referring to unbelieving Israel for whom He will judge Ezek 18:30 NIV. They are also referring to the wrath of God, but believers are no longer appointed to wrath...Job 21:30 NIV, Isa 26:20 NIV, Dan 12:1-2 NIV, Matt 3:12 NIV, John 3:36 NIV, Rom 5:9 NIV, Eph 2:3 NIV, 1 Thess 1:10 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV

- ATP

 

[FHII]

I want to know why you skipped verse 24 and 25. They are important verses because they tell what willful sin he's talking about.

The last verse tells us "but WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe...." I absolutely believe in predestination. But there is one point that rarely is talked about: that is, who is the one who knows who is predestinated.

 

[StanJ]

The distinguished author of Hebrews gives 5 big-time warnings to born-again brethren
(and back in those days, many/most of them were also baptized with the Holy Spirit).
One of the 5 warnings is this intreging passage …

Hebrews 10 (NKJV):
19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
22 let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts
sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
23 Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering,
for He who promised is faithful.
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation
which will devour the adversaries.
28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony
of two or three witnesses.
29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy
who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant
by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay”, says the Lord.
And again, “The Lord will judge His people.”
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
34 … knowing that you have a better and an enduring possession
for yourselves in heaven.
35 Therefore do not cast away your confidence, which has great reward.
36 For you have need of endurance, so that after you have done the will of God,
you may receive the promise:
37 “For yet a little while, and He who is coming will come and will not tarry.38 Now the just shall live by faith; but if anyone draws back, My soul has no pleasure in him.”
39 But we are not of those who draw back to perdition,
but of those who believe to the saving of the soul.

First, let us consider the last part of “the promise” (v.36) to the brethren,
which is … If anyone “draws back”, God has no pleasure in him (v.38).
Then in v.39, the writer talks about those who draw back to perdition (hell).
Therefore, we should consider what it means to draw back.

The writer tells us the opposite of falling back is:
• to draw near with a true heart (v.22)
• to hold fast your confession (of faith) without wavering (v.23)
• to not sin willfully (v.26)
• to not cast away your confidence (v.35)
• to endure (v.36)
• to do the will of God (v.36)
• to live by faith (v.38)

If you draw back from something, you first must have that something!
In this case, if you have something that keeps you out of hell,
and you choose to draw back from it, then you’re on your way to hell again!

And BTW, the writer really has NO idea who might draw back (fall away)!
He is simply following the Pauline method of encouraging, exhorting, etc.
He is saying that some brethren (somewhere) draw back (fall away),
but not these wonderful brethren to whom he is writing. Nonsense!
As with Paul, the method is to give warnings which are tactfully veiled,
and it is up to the Holy Spirit to reveal spiritual Truth to those who are open.

“God has promised to reward us. But we must persevere, and we
must continue to do the will of God with perseverance until the end;
otherwise we shall lose our reward. We shall lose what He has
promised … Therefore, let us not shrink back. Because if we do,
we will not only lose our reward (v.36); we will also be destroyed
(see Mark 8:35, Mark 13:13, Luke 21:19).”
(The Applied NT Commentary, Dr. Thomas Holt, Spirit-filled missionary)

I must agree with most of this except for the part about it being the Pauline method of encouraging exhorting etc... it is most widely accepted today that Luke is the author of Hebrews.
There is a distinct connection between these scriptures and Heb 6:4-6, which tells us who those people are that fall back.

 

[StanJ]

I want to know why you skipped verse 24 and 25. They are important verses because they tell what willful sin he's talking about.
The last verse tells us "but WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe...." I absolutely believe in predestination. But there is one point that rarely is talked about: that is, who is the one who knows who is predestinated.

24 And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds, 25 not giving up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching.

How is this telling us what the willful sin is?
That's right, Luke and his party we're not of those that drew back, but the fact remains that the warning here is about a real threat as well as the warning in Heb 6:4-6, which really has nothing to do with predestination, so maybe you can qualify/explain your statement here?

 

[ATP]

The last verse tells us "but WE are not of them that draw back unto perdition, but of them that believe...

Correct. Rom 10:9-10 NIV.

 

[Zachary]

... it is most widely accepted today that Luke is the author of Hebrews.

Again, thou hast succeeded in blowing my mind ... Thanks!

 

[r4hnsn]

I doubt that the Apostle would call "apostate" someone who was not truly a believer, for they have nothing to apostasy from, nor would God condemn them for they had not yet " received the knowledge of truth". Remember Christ said "blessed are you Simon Peter, for flesh and blood did not reveal this to you, but my Father in heaven" Math 16:17

Satan is sucessful in tricking many that these verses Heb 6:4-6 and 10:26 apply to them, or that they have "blasphemed against the Holy Spirit" but they have only lost heart and have not committed apostasy or blasphemy (knowingly speaking for the Holy Spirit but wilfuly misleading others), as Ananias and Sapphira did. For they have not "tasted of the heavenly gift" that circumsizes the heart and takes away all sin, so that if they go back after this they of all people culpable of blasphemy of the Holy Spirit and cannot be retrieved.

Really Luke the author of Hebrews? must`ve undergone a personality change, for Luke the Physician seems not to have a denouncery tone in either his gospel account or his letter to Theopilus. Now James, Paul or Jude have a closer style of writing.

If Adam and Eve were not OSAS, neither Annias and Saphira, or Judas, i think this doctrine is debunked. The claim they were never saved in the first place is a strawman argument, for it would be harsh of God to call apostate someone never saved in the first place.

 

[Zachary]

I doubt that the Apostle would call "apostate" someone who was not truly a believer,
for they have nothing to apostasy from,
... for it would be harsh of God to call apostate someone never saved in the first place.

Yes, thanks for this vote of agreement.

 

[H. Richard]

The book of Hebrews was written to show the Jews, and the Gentiles, that there was a transition from the Law of Moses to grace, If a reader can't see this then they will never be able to see that the law of Moses has been set aside and replaced with something much better, It's called grace.

2 Cor 3:7-11
Glory of the New Covenant 7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away,
8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?
9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.
10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels.
11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
NKJV

 

[ATP]

I doubt that the Apostle would call "apostate" someone who was not truly a believer,

And yet, that's exactly what Luke described, nonbelievers. They believed "for a little while", and then fell away because apostates do not have the root of salvation. Jesus Christ is the root. "Departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". They had no root r4h...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they (aphistémi) fall away.

Matt 13:20-23 NIV The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

If Adam and Eve were not OSAS, neither Annias and Saphira, or Judas, i think this doctrine is debunked. The claim they were never saved in the first place is a strawman argument, for it would be harsh of God to call apostate someone never saved in the first place.

Did Adam and Eve exist before resurrection or after, before the seal of God or after, before Pentecost or after? We are sealed until redemption. It is not us who keep ourselves firm in Christ, rather it is God himself who makes us stand firm in Christ 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV. God is the one who will bring us to glorification, not our filthy works. We are sealed until death. This is the marriage...

John 6:27 NIV Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval."

1 Cor 9:2 NIV Even though I may not be an apostle to others, surely I am to you! For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord.

2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, 22set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Eph 4:30 NIV And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

- ATP

 

[StanJ]

And yet, that's exactly what Luke described, nonbelievers. They believed "for a little while", and then fell away because apostates do not have the root of salvation.

So you think Jesus lied? He said they believed but you say He didn't actually say that.

Did Adam and Eve exist before resurrection or after, before the seal of God or after, before Pentecost or after? We are sealed until redemption. It is not us who keep ourselves firm in Christ, rather it is God himself who makes us stand firm in Christ 2 Cor 1:21-22 NIV. God is the one who will bring us to glorification, not our filthy works. We are sealed until death. This is the marriage...

The obvious answer is before even though I don't really understand what you're driving at. We are redeemed before we are sealed, so again I have no idea what you're driving at. Gal 3:13
God doesn't make us do anything or do you not believe Paul when he says work out your own salvation? God may work in us but it's up to us to do what he wants us to do that's why there are so many things in the Bible that tell us that.
I have noticed that you seem to have a formula here that you use for a lot of answers? You're very handy at copying and pasting them into different posts even when they have no relativity whatsoever to that post?

 

[ATP]

So you think Jesus lied? He said they believed but you say He didn't actually say that.

They believed for a while, similar to how the demons believe and tremble. There is no difference. Again, notice the word "root" in Luke 8:13 NIV. It all goes back to the root, seed and truth. Demons, along with nonbelievers do not believe in a Savior. Their hearts are far from God..

Rom 10:9-10 NIV If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

<_< Isa 29:13 NIV The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

<_< Matt 15:8-9 NIV “ ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. 9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are merely human rules.’”

The obvious answer is before even though I don't really understand what you're driving at. We are redeemed before we are sealed, so again I have no idea what you're driving at.

But notice how long we are sealed in Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV. Until redemption.

The obvious answer is before even though I don't really understand what you're driving at. We are redeemed before we are sealed, so again I have no idea what you're driving at. Gal 3:13
God doesn't make us do anything or do you not believe Paul when he says work out your own salvation? God may work in us but it's up to us to do what he wants us to do that's why there are so many things in the Bible that tell us that.

I agree. Progressive sanctification is a two way street. If we refuse to repent of something, God will discipline His saints. Rather than God kicking His children out of the family, He disciplines us. He will have His way sooner or later. He always does. We've been adopted into a family, and we have a good Father. - ATP

 

[StanJ]

They believed for a while, similar to how the demons believe and tremble. There is no difference. Again, notice the word "root" in Luke 8:13 NIV. It all goes back to the root, seed and truth. Demons, along with nonbelievers do not believe in a Savior. Their hearts are far from God..

So the Believers that didn't mature didn't believe? It's not similar at all because James was talking about people who said they believed but didn't produce any good works. You can't mix up two different issues and come up with one conclusion. Well apparently YOU can but that's not the way it's done hermeneutically.
Demons do more than believe, they know, big difference. James was making the point that simple belief is not enough and that a true Christians walk will produce good works. This has nothing to do with salvation. Root ONLY applies to the Believers in verse 13 not to everybody else. Are you now saying that OSAS is only applicable for people who stick with it? When are we secure, after a day, month, year, decade, lifetime? Those people in verse 13 declared with their mouths and believed and now you're saying they really didn't? So again you're calling Jesus a liar?

But notice how long we are sealed in Eph 1:13-14 NIV, Eph 4:30 NIV. Until redemption.

The holy spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance until we are redeemed. That's not the same thing as a guarantee of our redemption. If you fail to stick around until God redeems you then you can NOT be redeemed because you no longer have the Holy Spirit which is the guarantor and guarantee.
2 Tim 2:12 is clear, IF we endure we will reign. If we don't endure and fall away then we won't reign. That's about as clear as the nose on your face.

I agree. Progressive sanctification is a two way street. If we refuse to repent of something, God will discipline His saints. Rather than God kicking His children out of the family, He disciplines us. He will have His way sooner or later. He always does. We've been adopted into a family, and we have a good Father. -

Yes that's right, God does discipline his children because he loves us, but not all children respond positively to discipline. Some rebel, some run away, not all men are prodigal sons. You're ignoring the fact that apostasy happened, always have always will. The Bible teaches us that before Jesus returns there will be a great apostasy. 2 These 2:3

 

[ATP]

So the Believers that didn't mature didn't believe? It's not similar at all because James was talking about people who said they believed but didn't produce any good works.

No Stan, there is a term in the Bible called quenching the spirit 1 Thess 5:19. You can certainly quench the spirit and not lose sight of who you belong to. Believers quench the spirit and repent all throughout their lives. It's called being human.

The holy spirit is a guarantee of our inheritance until we are redeemed. That's not the same thing as a guarantee of our redemption. If you fail to stick around until God redeems you then you can NOT be redeemed because you no longer have the Holy Spirit which is the guarantor and guarantee.
2 Tim 2:12 is clear, IF we endure we will reign. If we don't endure and fall away then we won't reign. That's about as clear as the nose on your face.

2 Tim 2:11-13 is written in song form I believe. Saints will endure to the end. Will you sing with me?

2 Tim 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

Yes that's right, God does discipline his children because he loves us, but not all children respond positively to discipline. Some rebel, some run away, not all men are prodigal sons. You're ignoring the fact that apostasy happened, always have always will. The Bible teaches us that before Jesus returns there will be a great apostasy. 2 These 2:3

Well, a believer can run from God and end up on the other side of Africa, but he will still be indwelled by the Holy Spirit in Africa. We should learn from Jonah.

Demons do more than believe, they know, big difference. James was making the point that simple belief is not enough and that a true Christians walk will produce good works. This has nothing to do with salvation. Root ONLY applies to the Believers in verse 13 not to everybody else. Are you now saying that OSAS is only applicable for people who stick with it?

Stan, demons know Jesus is God, but do they believe in a Savior? You can do all the works you want, but you still can't earn grace.

When are we secure, after a day, month, year, decade, lifetime? Those people in verse 13 declared with their mouths and believed and now you're saying they really didn't? So again you're calling Jesus a liar?

You are secure once you believe and confess and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

- ATP

 

[StanJ]

No Stan, there is a term in the Bible called quenching the spirit 1 Thess 5:19. You can certainly quench the spirit and not lose sight of who you belong to. Believers quench the spirit and repent all throughout their lives. It's called being human.

Yes there is, and that's not what we're talking about. Please try to stay on track and on topic.

2 Tim 2:11-13 is written in song form I believe. Saints will endure to the end. Will you sing with me?
2 Tim 2:11 Here is a trustworthy saying
if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.

More deflection with the lack of answers.

Well, a believer can run from God and end up on the other side of Africa, but he will still be indwelled by the Holy Spirit in Africa. We should learn from Jonah.

Another deflection. You have an irritating way of avoiding answers.

Stan, demons know Jesus is God, but do they believe in a Savior? You can do all the works you want, but you still can't earn grace.

Knowing doesn't require belief. Do you know how old you are? Does it require any type of faith for you to believe that?
I'll ask again seeing as though you avoided the question.... Are you now saying that OSAS is only applicable for people who stick with it?

You are secure once you believe and confess and are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Oh so now salvation depends on the indwelling of the Holy Spirit does it? Where exactly did you find that in Scripture? You've dug yourself another hole even though you deflected and avoided my questions. I think it's best that you just answer my simple questions with simple answers.

 

[ATP]

The message of the Gospel is not a Rubik's cube people. Either we believe or we do not, sadly many will not.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

 

[StanJ]

The message of the Gospel is not a Rubik's cube people. Either we believe or we do not, sadly many will not.

John 6:47 NIV Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

Well it's a little more than believe it's a matter of believing and confessing who Jesus is. Again being given a promised contingent on fulfilling the conditions of that promise is not the same as effectively having the promise. Jesus will return to claim/redeem those who are God's possession at that time.

 

[ATP]

Well it's a little more than believe it's a matter of believing and confessing who Jesus is. Again being given a promised contingent on fulfilling the conditions of that promise is not the same as effectively having the promise. Jesus will return to claim/redeem those who are God's possession at that time.

Correct. Once we believe and confess we have the promise of eternal life. Simple isn't it.