About the "Holy Rosary" prayer

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,759
3,103
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Mary can certainly pray for us. She is in heaven, fully united to God. She is, according to Rev. 12:1, the queen of heaven. She is the "woman* clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars." What women wear crowns? Queens. She is the equivalent of the Queen Mother (the King's mother) in kingdoms. Jesus is our King. His mother is the Queen Mother.
The only Queen of Heaven the Bible mentions is in Jeremiah, and it ain't good.
Jeremiah 7:16-20
“Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven;
and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the LORD. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?” Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.”



  • Jeremiah 44:17-25
    But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.The women also said,“And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’ permission?” Then Jeremiah spoke to all the people—the men, the women, and all the people who had given him that answer—saying: “The incense that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and did it not come into His mind? So the LORD could no longer bear it, because of the evil of your doings and because of the abominations which you committed. Therefore your land is a desolation, an astonishment, a curse, and without an inhabitant, as it is this day. Because you have burned incense and because you have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD or walked in His law, in His statutes or in His testimonies, therefore this calamity has happened to you, as at this day.” Moreover Jeremiah said to all the people and to all the women, “Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah who are in the land of Egypt! Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’
You sound like a good man. I just don't believe Mary is up there, and if she were, what she could possibly be doing. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit got the market cornered.
 

Augustin56

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2023
710
527
93
71
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The only Queen of Heaven the Bible mentions is in Jeremiah, and it ain't good.
Jeremiah 7:16-20
“Therefore do not pray for this people, nor lift up a cry or prayer for them, nor make intercession to Me; for I will not hear you. Do you not see what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead dough, to make cakes for the queen of heaven;
and they pour out drink offerings to other gods, that they may provoke Me to anger. Do they provoke Me to anger?” says the LORD. “Do they not provoke themselves, to the shame of their own faces?” Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My anger and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.”



  • Jeremiah 44:17-25
    But we will certainly do whatever has gone out of our own mouth, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her, as we have done, we and our fathers, our kings and our princes, in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. For then we had plenty of food, were well-off, and saw no trouble. But since we stopped burning incense to the queen of heaven and pouring out drink offerings to her, we have lacked everything and have been consumed by the sword and by famine.The women also said,“And when we burned incense to the queen of heaven and poured out drink offerings to her, did we make cakes for her, to worship her, and pour out drink offerings to her without our husbands’ permission?” Then Jeremiah spoke to all the people—the men, the women, and all the people who had given him that answer—saying: “The incense that you burned in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem, you and your fathers, your kings and your princes, and the people of the land, did not the LORD remember them, and did it not come into His mind? So the LORD could no longer bear it, because of the evil of your doings and because of the abominations which you committed. Therefore your land is a desolation, an astonishment, a curse, and without an inhabitant, as it is this day. Because you have burned incense and because you have sinned against the LORD, and have not obeyed the voice of the LORD or walked in His law, in His statutes or in His testimonies, therefore this calamity has happened to you, as at this day.” Moreover Jeremiah said to all the people and to all the women, “Hear the word of the LORD, all Judah who are in the land of Egypt! Thus says the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, saying: ‘You and your wives have spoken with your mouths and fulfilled with your hands, saying, “We will surely keep our vows that we have made, to burn incense to the queen of heaven and pour out drink offerings to her.” You will surely keep your vows and perform your vows!’
You sound like a good man. I just don't believe Mary is up there, and if she were, what she could possibly be doing. God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit got the market cornered.
You clearly don't know how to interpret Scripture. That's why St. Peter warned against the do-it-yourself approach.

Revelation 12:1 says: A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

The woman referred to here, is a queen, in heaven. (She wears a crown with 12 stars, is clothed with the sun, and has the moon under her feet.) This woman to which St. John is referring is Mary, the mother of Jesus, our King. (We call Him Lord.) Since Jesus wasn't married, the only queen would be the queen mother. The only mother Jesus had was Mary. Therefore, Mary is the Queen of heaven, under Jesus' kingship. The queen mothers didn't rule. They advised their son and sometimes asked them favors. They had tremendous influence with their son, as Mary does with Jesus. Recall the scene at the wedding at Cana. They didn't go directly to Jesus to tell Him they were out of wine. They went to Mary. And all she did was tell Jesus, "They have no wine." And He took care of the problem, turning water into wine. The last thing Mary said in Scripture was, "Do whatever He tells you."

Consider Col. 1:9-12.
Therefore, from the day we heard this, we do not cease praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understandinge to live in a manner worthy of the Lord, so as to be fully pleasing, in every good work bearing fruit and growing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with every power, in accord with his glorious might, for all endurance and patience, with joy giving thanks to the Father, who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light.

Note that St. Paul says they are "praying for you," i.e., interceding with Jesus for them? They are interceding with Jesus for the Colossians. Was St. Paul wrong and you right about praying for others? We can ask Mary to pray for us to Jesus.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Jude Thaddeus

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,823
13,119
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Omnia ad Jesum per Mariam/ I don't think so. Jesus says "No one cometh unto the Father but by me." No need for Mary.

We can pray to the Lord directly through Jesus name. No need for saints or Mary.
God does not give omniscience to anyone. It is part of being God.

Agree.
Pray TO the Lord God.
Pray FOR others.

Further;
Sin is Against God.
Only the Lord God can forgive sin.
Trespasses are Against men.
Men certainly can and should forgive trespasses.

Further;
God is Spirit.
Gods Word is Spiritual.
Gods Understanding of His Own Word is Spiritual.
Only the Lord God gives to men Gods Understanding of His Own Word.

Bottom line…
Suspect when one in the role of teaching another includes;
TO: Pray TO anyone other than the Lord God.
TO: Exalt graven images.
TO: Bow down before graven images.
TO: Kiss and Lay Trinkets before graven images.
TO: Teach Gods Understanding of Gods Word according to another, for the express purpose of submission and academic advancement and avoidance of mans punishment.
TO: Teach the Receiving of the Baptism of Holy Spirit of God, is Effected without regard to the Recipients own Heartful Knowledge, Belief or Confession thereof.
TO: Teach God was Procreated by Body, Life, (ie Blood), of the Created.
TO: Teach Any Human was or is Excepted from being naturally conceived or born in sin.
Etc., Etc., Etc…

And WHY such things ARE SUSPECT?
Because they FALL in Direct Contrast to Gods own Word of Knowledge and Truth so Revealed to mankind.

Glory to God,
Taken

TO: Teach Repetitious Prayers
 

Taken

Well-Known Member
Staff member
Encounter Team
Feb 6, 2018
24,823
13,119
113
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
You clearly don't know how to interpret Scripture. That's why St. Peter warned against the do-it-yourself approach.

Ditto.

Revelation 12:1 says: A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.

The woman referred to here, is a queen, in heaven. (She wears a crown with 12 stars, is clothed with the sun, and has the moon under her feet.) This woman to which St. John is referring is Mary, the mother of Jesus, our King.

The “woman” IS the “NATIONS”…(always referenced in the feminine context)
The “NATIONS” are the “individual” citizenry.
The “individual” citizenry, are:
Man- establish legal citizens of their Nation, (under the governorship of their human, kings, presidents, or whatever title they use.)

SOME….”individuals” are: ALSO Citizens, of the Lord Gods “Kingdom”, and the “governor” thereof, is their Lord God KING.

(We call Him Lord.) Since Jesus wasn't married, the only queen would be the queen mother. The only mother Jesus had was Mary. Therefore, Mary is the Queen of heaven, under Jesus' kingship. The queen mothers didn't rule.

Agree…nothing whatsoever, teaches Jesus was married.

Mary…during her physical human life time…was approached, agreed and served a temporary role of Service unto the Lord God…same as millions of other humans who were, are, did and do respond in agreement and service according to the Lords calling.
Once they fulfill their temporary role (while they being alive in their flesh)…their body dies, returns to the earth, and their soul and spirit rises up to commune with God: VOID of continuing Serving God in a capacity with Bodily alive human men.

Humans ARE humans, natural earthly terrestrials, whose body is but out of the dust of the earth, MUST and SHALL die, and that body return to the dust of the earth…regardless of their station in Life…of human king, queen, president, governor (whatever political title)

Jesus, is the NAME God Himself chose for Gods OWN Word.
Christ, is the TITLE God Himself chose for Gods OWN Power, Seed and Wisdom.

God IS Spirit, without beginning, without ending, without mother or father.
God IS Creator and Maker of ALL things.

Christ Jesus the Lord God…WAS FOREVER, IS FOREVER, SHALL BE FOREVER…”SPIRIT”, Before all things.
Above all things.
Maker of all things.

^^^ THAT is NOT, nor shall EVER BE the description of a created human terrestrial being or a created celestial being.

Attempting to interject a created Human in any way, shape or form into such status…
MAY BE a “temptation” to follow along standing in agreement with other men….which some men DO.
“OR” MAY BE a “temptation” instigated by other men…to absolutely reject….which some men DO.

Every individual has FREEWILL, to choose what they WILL accept or reject.

Bottom Line…The Lord Gods OWN Word, is His own Acceptable Verification for whatever an individual chooses to believe, trust, follow.

Glory to God,
Taken
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOneHeLoves

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
1,518
649
113
69
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Consider Col. 1:9-12.
Therefore, from the day we heard this, we do not cease praying for you and asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understandinge to live in a manner worthy of the Lord, so as to be fully pleasing, in every good work bearing fruit and growing in the knowledge of God, strengthened with every power, in accord with his glorious might, for all endurance and patience, with joy giving thanks to the Father, who has made you fit to share in the inheritance of the holy ones in light.

Note that St. Paul says they are "praying for you," i.e., interceding with Jesus for them? They are interceding with Jesus for the Colossians. Was St. Paul wrong and you right about praying for others? We can ask Mary to pray for us to Jesus.
Praying to God for the Colossians and praying to Mary for others (or oneself) are just not analogous. The latter interposes an additional step; instead of approaching the one with the power to grant the prayer, it approaches one who is thought to have influence over Him.

Anyone who thinks of asking for Mary's intercession needs to answer this question: why would God be reluctant to grant a given prayer but Mary be solicitous of having the prayer granted? Is she more merciful than He? Is she more attuned to the prayor's needs than He?
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Augustin56

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2023
710
527
93
71
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Praying to God for the Colossians and praying to Mary for others (or oneself) are just not analogous. The latter interposes an additional step; instead of approaching the one with the power to grant the prayer, it approaches one who is thought to have influence over Him.

Anyone who thinks of asking for Mary's intercession needs to answer this question: why would God be reluctant to grant a given prayer but Mary be solicitous of having the prayer granted? Is she more merciful than He? Is she more attuned to the prayor's needs than He?
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is the only intercessor with God, the Father. And Mary is probably the most powerful intercessor with her son, Jesus. Jesus never broke any of the 10 Commandments, including, "Honor thy father and mother." So, she has much more sway with Him than we do. One example we can consider in this is the wedding feast at Cana. They ran out of wine. They didn't go to Jesus directly to ask his help with the wine. The went to Mary. She, in turn, went to her Son, Jesus, and simply said, "They have no wine." He, in turn, fixed the problem by turning water into wine. Her last words were, "Do whatever He tells you."

We can ask one another to pray for us. That's "prayer" in the sense of asking. Remember how the British speak. "Pray, tell me why you are here." and so forth. "Prayer" is not always "worship." We lose some understanding because the English language is lacking in some aspects. The Latin word latria stands for the worship we are to give to God alone. Dulia is the Latin word for honor, which we give the Saints, except Mary. For her, we use the Latin word hyperdulia.

Praying to Mary to ask her help doesn't mean we cannot go to Jesus. It's not an either/or. It's a both/and. Stack the deck.
 

Cassandra

Well-Known Member
Sep 24, 2021
2,759
3,103
113
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States

Luke 11:27-28​

27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”


Well, looks like Jesus is saying that those who obey Him are blessed. He did not comment on his mother being blessed.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOneHeLoves

Augustin56

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2023
710
527
93
71
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Ditto.



The “woman” IS the “NATIONS”…(always referenced in the feminine context)
The “NATIONS” are the “individual” citizenry.
The “individual” citizenry, are:
Man- establish legal citizens of their Nation, (under the governorship of their human, kings, presidents, or whatever title they use.)

SOME….”individuals” are: ALSO Citizens, of the Lord Gods “Kingdom”, and the “governor” thereof, is their Lord God KING.



Agree…nothing whatsoever, teaches Jesus was married.

Mary…during her physical human life time…was approached, agreed and served a temporary role of Service unto the Lord God…same as millions of other humans who were, are, did and do respond in agreement and service according to the Lords calling.
Once they fulfill their temporary role (while they being alive in their flesh)…their body dies, returns to the earth, and their soul and spirit rises up to commune with God: VOID of continuing Serving God in a capacity with Bodily alive human men.

Humans ARE humans, natural earthly terrestrials, whose body is but out of the dust of the earth, MUST and SHALL die, and that body return to the dust of the earth…regardless of their station in Life…of human king, queen, president, governor (whatever political title)

Jesus, is the NAME God Himself chose for Gods OWN Word.
Christ, is the TITLE God Himself chose for Gods OWN Power, Seed and Wisdom.

God IS Spirit, without beginning, without ending, without mother or father.
God IS Creator and Maker of ALL things.

Christ Jesus the Lord God…WAS FOREVER, IS FOREVER, SHALL BE FOREVER…”SPIRIT”, Before all things.
Above all things.
Maker of all things.

^^^ THAT is NOT, nor shall EVER BE the description of a created human terrestrial being or a created celestial being.

Attempting to interject a created Human in any way, shape or form into such status…
MAY BE a “temptation” to follow along standing in agreement with other men….which some men DO.
“OR” MAY BE a “temptation” instigated by other men…to absolutely reject….which some men DO.

Every individual has FREEWILL, to choose what they WILL accept or reject.

Bottom Line…The Lord Gods OWN Word, is His own Acceptable Verification for whatever an individual chooses to believe, trust, follow.

Glory to God,
Taken
The nations don't wear a crown, nor are they in heaven.

Luke 11:27-28​

27 As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
28 He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”


Well, looks like Jesus is saying that those who obey Him are blessed. He did not comment on his mother being blessed.
Many Protestants will claim that here we see Jesus making clear that there is no special reverence to be given to his mother. When the unnamed woman wants to heap “blessing” on Mary, Jesus seems to reject the notion. “Blessed rather,” he says, “are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

Is Jesus really rebuking this woman for her claim that Mary is “blessed”? On the surface, this does look troubling—but only to those who choose to remain on the surface. There are at least two essential reasons why Jesus could not have meant to say his mother was not blessed.

1. Common sense. This woman expresses a profound truth that every human being knows from his core: any woman who gives birth to and nurtures a child is blessed! There is little in this life that is any more beautiful than the birthing and nurturing of a human being created in the image and likeness of God. But add to this the fact that Mary gave birth to and nurtured God in the flesh. How blessed is this? It is truly beyond words to comprehend. So of course this woman was correct in her assertion. Jesus would not—and could not—contradict that which is manifestly true to human reason and acknowledged by all of humanity!

2. Jesus cannot contradict Sacred Scripture. In Luke 1:48-49, the inspired author records these words spoken by the Blessed Mother herself:

For behold, henceforth all generations will call me blessed; for he who is mighty has done great things for me, and holy is his name.

Mary herself was here pondering the same reality to which later that unnamed woman would speak. “Blessed is the womb that bore thee . . .”

Mary’s cousin (or relative) Elizabeth would also contribute to this conversation, her words given to us also by St. Luke under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit:

For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the babe in my womb leaped for joy. And blessed is she who believed that there would be a fulfilment of what was spoken to her from the Lord (Luke 1:44-45).

If Jesus is denying in Luke 11:27-28 that Mary is blessed, then he is contradicting these Holy Spirit-inspired words of Sacred Scripture. That is unthinkable.

In his great encyclical letter Redemptoris Mater, Pope St. John Paul II explains in simple terms the proper interpretation of Luke 11:27-28:

He [Jesus] wishes to divert attention from motherhood understood only as a fleshly bond, in order to direct it toward those mysterious bonds of the spirit which develop from hearing and keeping God’s word (20.3-4).

Jesus was not denying that Mary was his mother and as such was blessed; rather, he was teaching us the most important aspect of Mary’s divine maternity and, indeed, of all human motherhood. It is first and foremost spiritual. Mary is both the mother of Jesus on the biological level and the ultimate example of spiritual motherhood in the order of grace.

So is she blessed on the natural level? Absolutely! But on the spiritual level, which is the most important level that completes and perfects nature, Mary’s level of blessedness is multiplied immeasurably. Moreover, in Mary’s famous fiat of Luke 1:38—”let it be done unto me according to thy word”—she reveals what is most important not only when considering Christian motherhood, but when considering the spiritual life in general. She becomes the “model for Christians” when she “hears the word of God” from the angel “and keeps it.”

Far from teaching that Mary is not blessed, Jesus was here heaping a twofold blessing upon the Blessed Mother. Mary’s blessedness extends to the levels of nature and supernature.

The misunderstanding implied in the question is rooted in a misunderstanding of one small but important word in Luke 11. When Jesus responds to the unnamed woman’s declaration, Luke records him as saying: “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!”

The Greek word translated blessed rather here is menoun. As the late Barclay Newman, Jr. provides in his Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament:

Menoun and menounge [which have the same meaning]: rather, on the contrary; indeed, much more.

As we have already seen, it would be impossible to translate this as “rather, on the contrary,” because that would have Jesus contradicting the plain words of Scripture. So if we want to remain faithful to the inspiration and inerrancy of Scripture, Newman’s second meaning, “indeed, [but] much more,” has to win the day.

Moreover, menoun and menounge are used only four times in the New Testament. Of the three other usages, only one could be legitimately translated “on the contrary.” That usage is found in Romans 9:20, where St. Paul responds to those objecting to God creating men, knowing they would eventually end up in hell: “On the contrary [menounge], who are you, a man, to answer back to God?” The other two times, it means either “indeed” or “indeed, much more.” Here, in Romans 10:18, it means “indeed”:

But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed (menounge) they have; for “their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the end of the world” (citing Ps. 19:4).

In Phil. 3:7-8, menounge carries the connotation of “indeed, much more,” much like Luke 11:27-28:

But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed [menounge, much more], I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord.

Notice that Paul moves from “whatever gain [he] had” being lost to “count[ing] everything as loss.”

Given the fact that two out of the three other times these terms are used, they mean “indeed,” or “indeed, much more,” it would be exegetically foolish to translate menoun in our main text of Luke 11:27-28 to have Jesus, somehow, denying his mother to be “blessed.”

Common sense, Sacred Scripture, and good biblical exegesis makes it very plain that Mary is “blessed,” indeed!
 

TheOneHeLoves

Active Member
Nov 15, 2022
192
159
43
49
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus is the only intercessor with God, the Father. And Mary is probably the most powerful intercessor with her son, Jesus. Jesus never broke any of the 10 Commandments, including, "Honor thy father and mother." So, she has much more sway with Him than we do. One example we can consider in this is the wedding feast at Cana. They ran out of wine. They didn't go to Jesus directly to ask his help with the wine. The went to Mary. She, in turn, went to her Son, Jesus, and simply said, "They have no wine." He, in turn, fixed the problem by turning water into wine. Her last words were, "Do whatever He tells you."

We can ask one another to pray for us. That's "prayer" in the sense of asking. Remember how the British speak. "Pray, tell me why you are here." and so forth. "Prayer" is not always "worship." We lose some understanding because the English language is lacking in some aspects. The Latin word latria stands for the worship we are to give to God alone. Dulia is the Latin word for honor, which we give the Saints, except Mary. For her, we use the Latin word hyperdulia.

Praying to Mary to ask her help doesn't mean we cannot go to Jesus. It's not an either/or. It's a both/and. Stack the deck.
Can you not see the irony of your words?

People went to Mary in ignorance, she says don't come to me, go to Jesus. Jesus calls her "woman" showing that He is now publicly coming into His mission as Christ/Messiah.

OF course we ask others to pray for us but we don't pray to the dead, we don't pray to people to pray for us. we don't worship the dead. Catholics (along with other beliefs) created statues, images, and places where you kneel, light candles, and believe they have power. Your statues and images are the same as Budda and Baal.

all the descriptions of Heaven, Jesus never mentions Mary. He does mention the apostles around His throne.
 

Augustin56

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2023
710
527
93
71
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can you not see the irony of your words?

People went to Mary in ignorance, she says don't come to me, go to Jesus. Jesus calls her "woman" showing that He is now publicly coming into His mission as Christ/Messiah.

OF course we ask others to pray for us but we don't pray to the dead, we don't pray to people to pray for us. we don't worship the dead. Catholics (along with other beliefs) created statues, images, and places where you kneel, light candles, and believe they have power. Your statues and images are the same as Budda and Baal.

all the descriptions of Heaven, Jesus never mentions Mary. He does mention the apostles around His throne.
Do, you think the Bible is in error? Or, the people in the Bible were in error? If so, why didn't the Bible point that out?

If you place yourself above the Bible, then you invite error. If you oppose the Church founded by Christ, that wrote the New Testament, and about which St. Paul said is the "pillar and foundation of truth" ( 1 Tim 3:15), then you invite error.

We do not pray to the dead. Everyone in heaven is more alive than we are! They are fully united to Christ! Here is a good article (also has audio of it embedded, if you don't like reading) that explains the issue: Praying to Dead Folks

So, my question to you is, do you claim to be infallible in your personal interpretation of Scripture? Or is it very possible you have erroneous interpretations? And if you can be erroneous, how would you ever know if you have everythig right or not?

All Protestant's claim to go by the Bible, but what they don't seem to realize, is they go by their personal interpretation of the Bible and end up with all sorts of contradictory interpretations. That's why there are so many differing denominations, all based on someone's personal interpretation of Scripture. It really doesn't work.
 

TheOneHeLoves

Active Member
Nov 15, 2022
192
159
43
49
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Do, you think the Bible is in error? Or, the people in the Bible were in error? If so, why didn't the Bible point that out?

If you place yourself above the Bible, then you invite error. If you oppose the Church founded by Christ, that wrote the New Testament, and about which St. Paul said is the "pillar and foundation of truth" ( 1 Tim 3:15), then you invite error.

We do not pray to the dead. Everyone in heaven is more alive than we are! They are fully united to Christ! Here is a good article (also has audio of it embedded, if you don't like reading) that explains the issue: Praying to Dead Folks

So, my question to you is, do you claim to be infallible in your personal interpretation of Scripture? Or is it very possible you have erroneous interpretations? And if you can be erroneous, how would you ever know if you have everythig right or not?

All Protestant's claim to go by the Bible, but what they don't seem to realize, is they go by their personal interpretation of the Bible and end up with all sorts of contradictory interpretations. That's why there are so many differing denominations, all based on someone's personal interpretation of Scripture. It really doesn't work.
I believe in the Bible 100%. I argue against all denominations. I am a follower of Christ Jesus... not man, not religion, not a denomination.

All those that have the Holy Spirit are blessed. God has, does, and will continue to work through people and not one person is held higher than Jesus. not one person is to be glorified in the manner catholic glorify Mary and the apostles. There is nothing you can say and not find in scripture where God says to glorify anyone in the manner catholics do.

Jesus is God and because of His dying at the cross for sin, and raising Himself up again those that will surrender to Him with all their heart, all of their soul and all their strength will be saved and have direct access to Him.

Each one of use will face God for judgement. If you don't believe, Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, THE TRUE LIGHT, THE LIVING WATER, THE BREAD OF LIFE, THE GOOD SHEPHARD, THE REDEEMER, THE HEALER, THE CREATOR, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE MORNING STAR, KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, THE GREAT I AM, THE HOLY ONE, AND SO MUCH MORE.

claiming to know Him but choosing to pray to others, glorify others, call on others tells me you don't know Him.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Cassandra

Augustin56

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2023
710
527
93
71
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I believe in the Bible 100%. I argue against all denominations. I am a follower of Christ Jesus... not man, not religion, not a denomination.

All those that have the Holy Spirit are blessed. God has, does, and will continue to work through people and not one person is held higher than Jesus. not one person is to be glorified in the manner catholic glorify Mary and the apostles. There is nothing you can say and not find in scripture where God says to glorify anyone in the manner catholics do.

Jesus is God and because of His dying at the cross for sin, and raising Himself up again those that will surrender to Him with all their heart, all of their soul and all their strength will be saved and have direct access to Him.

Each one of use will face God for judgement. If you don't believe, Jesus is THE WAY, THE TRUTH, THE LIFE, THE TRUE LIGHT, THE LIVING WATER, THE BREAD OF LIFE, THE GOOD SHEPHARD, THE REDEEMER, THE HEALER, THE CREATOR, THE ALPHA AND OMEGA, THE MORNING STAR, KING OF KINGS, LORD OF LORDS, THE GREAT I AM, THE HOLY ONE, AND SO MUCH MORE.

claiming to know Him but choosing to pray to others, glorify others, call on others tells me you don't know Him.
So, you still didn't answer my questions. So, my question to you is, do you claim to be infallible in your personal interpretation of Scripture? Or is it very possible you have erroneous interpretations? And if you can be erroneous, how would you ever know if you have everythig right or not?

Jesus gave mankind the totallity of Divine Revelation when He taught the Apostles. Jesus taught orally. He didn't write a book. The Apostles taught the fullness of Divine Revelation to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise down through the centuries for 2000 years. SOME of what was taught orally was written down by the Apostles and their students. We call that the New Testament.

Christ founded a CHURCH to spread His truths. He didn't write a book (the vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the latest100 years of history, give or take, so that would have been impractical). St. Paul refers to Christ's Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15. He never said anything of the sort about individuals personally interpeting Scripture as being that. Historically, there is only one Church, the Catholic Church, that can trace her history straight back to Christ. Protestantism, with its manmade doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) didn't come on the historical scene until the 16th century! And it has continually splintered ever since into more and more denominations. But denominations aren't really any different than an individual, such as yourself, who thinks they can reinvent Christ's message on their own by reading a translation into English, viewed through 21st century lenses, with no cultural or historical context. It just all ends in error, sooner than later.
 

TheOneHeLoves

Active Member
Nov 15, 2022
192
159
43
49
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
So, you still didn't answer my questions. So, my question to you is, do you claim to be infallible in your personal interpretation of Scripture? Or is it very possible you have erroneous interpretations? And if you can be erroneous, how would you ever know if you have everythig right or not?

Jesus gave mankind the totallity of Divine Revelation when He taught the Apostles. Jesus taught orally. He didn't write a book. The Apostles taught the fullness of Divine Revelation to their successors, the bishops, who have done likewise down through the centuries for 2000 years. SOME of what was taught orally was written down by the Apostles and their students. We call that the New Testament.

Christ founded a CHURCH to spread His truths. He didn't write a book (the vast majority of humanity was illiterate until the latest100 years of history, give or take, so that would have been impractical). St. Paul refers to Christ's Church as the "pillar and foundation of truth" in 1 Tim 3:15. He never said anything of the sort about individuals personally interpeting Scripture as being that. Historically, there is only one Church, the Catholic Church, that can trace her history straight back to Christ. Protestantism, with its manmade doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the Bible alone) didn't come on the historical scene until the 16th century! And it has continually splintered ever since into more and more denominations. But denominations aren't really any different than an individual, such as yourself, who thinks they can reinvent Christ's message on their own by reading a translation into English, viewed through 21st century lenses, with no cultural or historical context. It just all ends in error, sooner than later.
If I told you, you would not believe me. The Father reveals truth to who He chooses.

Romans created catholic church as they were losing power to "The Way" followers. They decided to incorporate Jesus in their religion while mocking Him (displaying Jesus on the cross), ordering confession to the "fathers" (Believers have one Father in Heaven.)

I won't change your mind or heart, I pray you will repent and the truth be revealed to you.
 

Augustin56

Well-Known Member
Apr 16, 2023
710
527
93
71
United States
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
If I told you, you would not believe me. The Father reveals truth to who He chooses.

Romans created catholic church as they were losing power to "The Way" followers. They decided to incorporate Jesus in their religion while mocking Him (displaying Jesus on the cross), ordering confession to the "fathers" (Believers have one Father in Heaven.)

I won't change your mind or heart, I pray you will repent and the truth be revealed to you.
I would encourage you to grab an objective history book (from the library, perhaps?) on early Church history, the first Christians, etc. The Romans had nothing to do with founding the Catholic Church. In fact, they persecuted the Church, sending many martyrs to their death until the 4th century when the emporer, Constantine, "legalized" it.

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained by St. Peter, himself, was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D., referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about.

It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

St. Ignatius didn't found the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ did. Or do you believe that St. Peter was in error, too?

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf
 

TheOneHeLoves

Active Member
Nov 15, 2022
192
159
43
49
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I would encourage you to grab an objective history book (from the library, perhaps?) on early Church history, the first Christians, etc. The Romans had nothing to do with founding the Catholic Church. In fact, they persecuted the Church, sending many martyrs to their death until the 4th century when the emporer, Constantine, "legalized" it.

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained by St. Peter, himself, was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D., referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about.

It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

St. Ignatius didn't found the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ did. Or do you believe that St. Peter was in error, too?

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf
Laughable..

Would like to buy my ocean front property in Arizona? Are you a democrat/liberal too?
 

TheOneHeLoves

Active Member
Nov 15, 2022
192
159
43
49
Houston
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I would encourage you to grab an objective history book (from the library, perhaps?) on early Church history, the first Christians, etc. The Romans had nothing to do with founding the Catholic Church. In fact, they persecuted the Church, sending many martyrs to their death until the 4th century when the emporer, Constantine, "legalized" it.

The Catholic Church is the original Church founded by Christ. St. Ignatius of Antioch, the bishop of Antioch ordained by St. Peter, himself, was captured by the Romans. While they were transporting him to be martyred for the faith, he wrote a letter to the Smyrnaeans around 107-110 A.D., referring to the "Catholic Church," not in such a manner as if he were coining the term, but in such a manner in which he fully expected the Smyrnaeans to understand what he was talking about.

It says in paragraph 8, "Where the bishop is present, there let the congregation gather, just as where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church."

St. Ignatius didn't found the Catholic Church. Jesus Christ did. Or do you believe that St. Peter was in error, too?

See the entire letter here: https://www.orderofstignatius.org/files/Letters/Ignatius_to_Smyrnaeans.pdf
Constantine "converted" to Christianity after it lifted ban making it illegal in AD 313. He wanted to unite (control) the Roman Empire so the church became mixed Christianity with Roman paganism. People were fooled and still controlled.

The Pharisee did the same thing. God gave law and standards and Pharisees twisted for their agenda and eventually worked with the worldly leaders to their benefit. Not concerned with God's Kingdom but a worldly kingdom.
 

Rockerduck

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2022
1,078
967
113
69
Marietta, Georgia.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
The woman in Rev. 12:1 is the nation of Israel. The 12 stars are 12 tribes. Rev. 12:5 -Jesus is born and resurrected in Heaven. Rev. 12:6 is future. Rev. 12:7-10 is in the Past. Rev. 12:13 is the persecution of the Jews. Rev. 12:17 is present. Satan is after Jews and Christians for last 2000 yrs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheOneHeLoves

RedFan

Well-Known Member
May 15, 2022
1,518
649
113
69
New Hampshire
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Constantine "converted" to Christianity after it lifted ban making it illegal in AD 313. He wanted to unite (control) the Roman Empire so the church became mixed Christianity with Roman paganism. People were fooled and still controlled.
Let's explore this a bit. I contend that Constantine wanted to unite the Roman Empire by promoting religious tolerance and thereby curtailing as much religious divisiveness as he could, without adopting Christianity (or a paganized form of it) as a State religion. Here is what his Edict of Milan said, in pertinent part:

And accordingly we give you to know that, without regard
to any provisos in our former orders to you concerning the
Christians, all who choose that religion are to be permitted,
freely and absolutely, to remain in it, and not to be disturbed in
any ways, or molested. And we thought fit to be thus special in
the things committed to your charge, that you might understand
that the indulgence which we have granted in matters of religion
to the Christians is ample and unconditional; and perceive at the
same time that the open and free exercise of their respective
religions is granted to all others, as well as to the Christians.
For it befits the well-ordered state and the tranquility of our
times that each individual be allowed, according to his own
choice, to worship the Divinity; and we mean not to derogate
aught from the honor due to any religion or its votaries.

“Moreover, with respect to the Christians, we formerly
gave certain orders concerning the places appropriated for
their religious assemblies; but now we will that all persons
who have purchased such places, either from our exchequer or
from anyone else, do restore them to the Christians, without
money demanded or price claimed, and that this be performed
peremptorily and unambiguously; and we will also, that they
who have obtained any right to such places by form of gift do
forthwith restore them to the Christians: reserving always to
such persons, who have either purchased for a price, or
gratuitously acquired them, to make application to the judge of
the district, if they look on themselves as entitled to any
equivalent from our beneficence. All those places are, by your
intervention, to be immediately restored to the Christians. And
because it appears that, besides the places appropriated to
religious worship, the Christians did possess other places,
which belonged not to individuals, but to their society in
general, that is, to their churches, we comprehend all such
within the regulation aforesaid, and we will that you cause
them all to be restored to the society or churches, and that
without hesitation or controversy: Provided always, that the
persons making restitution without a price paid shall be at
liberty to seek indemnification from our bounty. In furthering
all such things for the benefit of the Christians, you are to use
your utmost diligence, to the end that our orders be speedily
obeyed, and our gracious purpose in securing the public
tranquility promoted.


I further contend that during Constantine's reign a mix of Christianity with Roman paganism did not occur on any widespread scale (leaving some minor heresies aside). If you have evidence to the contrary, please share.