Abraham was not saved by faith alone

[skypair]

‘Ro 4:3 — "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” God came to Abram and said that He would give Abram a land that He would show him. Abram wasn't declared righteous because he believed the promise though he did believe in the land and that God could give it to him. He was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land!

In the same way, we are not saved by believing the gospel, the Bible, in eternal life and that God can give that to us, etc. — we are saved by obeying what God tells us we must to in order to receive those gifts which is "REPENT towards God and FAITH in Christ" (Acts 20:21, cf. Acts 17:30, 26:20, 2:38).

Now you can call it whatever you want .. "works" seems to be the popular reply. But if Abram hadn't gotten up and left Ur, he would not have received the land, much less would God be telling us about him today. What you could do is actually obey knowing that the scriptures that mention works are talking about works of the flesh and of the law and are not spiritual works like belief and repentance.

skypair

 

[DPMartin]

‘Ro 4:3 — "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” God came to Abram and said that He would give Abram a land that He would show him. Abram wasn't declared righteous because he believed the promise though he did believe in the land and that God could give it to him. He was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land!

In the same way, we are not saved by believing the gospel, the Bible, in eternal life and that God can give that to us, etc. — we are saved by obeying what God tells us we must to in order to receive those gifts which is "REPENT towards God and FAITH in Christ" (Acts 20:21, cf. Acts 17:30, 26:20, 2:38).

Now you can call it whatever you want .. "works" seems to be the popular reply. But if Abram hadn't gotten up and left Ur, he would not have received the land, much less would God be telling us about him today. What you could do is actually obey knowing that the scriptures that mention works are talking about works of the flesh and of the law and are not spiritual works like belief and repentance.

skypair

ah just what do you think faith is?

it seems you might need the definition, here is the OED def' of faith



I. Belief, trust, confidence.

1. a. Confidence, reliance, trust (in the ability, goodness, etc., of a person; in the efficacy or worth of a thing; or in the truth of a statement or doctrine). Const. in, †of. In early use, only with reference to religious objects; this is still the prevalent application, and often colours the wider use.


note it includes belief and trust.

by the Grace Noah found in God's sight (hence the life Abram received of Noah) through Faith (belief/trust) in the Lord his God. simple as that.


so yes by Grace through Faith for Abram and his chosen children Paul describes as:
Rom 3:30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.



 

[Helen]

@DPMartin
Amen..Good post!

 

[skypair]

ah just what do you think faith is?

it seems you might need the definition, here is the OED def' of faith

I. Belief, trust, confidence.

1. a. Confidence, reliance, trust (in the ability, goodness, etc., of a person; in the efficacy or worth of a thing; or in the truth of a statement or doctrine). Const. in, †of. In early use, only with reference to religious objects; this is still the prevalent application, and often colours the wider use.

note it includes belief and trust.

Thank you, DPMartin. I wouldn't have known that if you hadn't brought it to my attention.

Actually, Abram's faith was shown by not being disobedient to Cod's call. What if Abram had chosen not to obey .. not to "go?" What do you think God would have given him then?

Think about your own father. When you did not obey him, what did he do to you -- a) reward you or b) punish you? Now consider what God is going to do to you if you don't repent of your sin to Him. (Acts 2:38, 17:30, 20:21, 26:20)

Or do you not believe God tells you to repent? Acts 5:32 says that God does not give the Holy Ghost to those who don't obey Him. Merry Christmas.

skypair

 

[bbyrd009]

Now consider what God is going to do to you if you don't repent of your sin to Him.

what is that exactly, that God is going to do?

to them in particular i mean

 

[bbyrd009]

Bible Search: confess your sins to God

Bible Search: repent of your sins to God

well dang, just what ezackly is going on here lol

 

[DPMartin]

Thank you, DPMartin. I wouldn't have known that if you hadn't brought it to my attention.

Actually, Abram's faith was shown by not being disobedient to Cod's call. What if Abram had chosen not to obey .. not to "go?" What do you think God would have given him then?

Think about your own father. When you did not obey him, what did he do to you -- a) reward you or b) punish you? Now consider what God is going to do to you if you don't repent of your sin to Him. (Acts 2:38, 17:30, 20:21, 26:20)

Or do you not believe God tells you to repent? Acts 5:32 says that God does not give the Holy Ghost to those who don't obey Him. Merry Christmas.

skypair

thing is Abraham may not be a good example for your point. Noah was tenth generation from Adam, and Abraham was tenth generation from Noah so God knows that Abraham was going to be who Abraham is. there's not a "what if" involved. also Noah was still alive until Abraham was fifty years old.

also when God called Abram to go to now Israel do you think Abram had an relationship with the Almighty already? consider, would you believe and or trust what you don't know? also who makes God reveal Himself, no one, correct? so, God makes Himself known to Abram some time before He tells Abram to go to a certain land, and by that time Abram packs his stuff and family and goes without question.

by accounts in the book of Jasher and the book of Jubilees, though the stories very, Abram is already a faithful soul unto the Lord, and Abram is 75 years old when the Lord tells Abram to go to the promised land.

were as repent, as you have presented it, is for the unfaithful the thankless and the wicked.

 

[FHII]

‘Ro 4:3 — "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” God came to Abram and said that He would give Abram a land that He would show him. Abram wasn't declared righteous because he believed the promise though he did believe in the land and that God could give it to him. He was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land!

In the same way, we are not saved by believing the gospel, the Bible, in eternal life and that God can give that to us, etc. — we are saved by obeying what God tells us we must to in order to receive those gifts which is "REPENT towards God and FAITH in Christ" (Acts 20:21, cf. Acts 17:30, 26:20, 2:38).

Now you can call it whatever you want .. "works" seems to be the popular reply. But if Abram hadn't gotten up and left Ur, he would not have received the land, much less would God be telling us about him today. What you could do is actually obey knowing that the scriptures that mention works are talking about works of the flesh and of the law and are not spiritual works like belief and repentance.

skypair

I agree. But the mention of Abraham in Romans 4 isn't about him leaving Ur or even splitting from Lot.

Its about he and his wife giving conceiving and giving birth to Isaac. The only work Abraham had to do was... Well... You know.

Abraham and Sarah actually tried to help God, as if he needed it. Sarah suggested that her husband sleep with her 18 year old, olive skinned, rock hard body slave Hagar. Now there's a good wife! And I'm sure that upset Abraham quite a bit. I am sure he prayed and lamented over it several days. But he did it and lo... It didn't work. God blessed Iscmael and Hagar... But he wasn't the promise.

Now yes... I made much of that up. I have no scripture that says she was 18, had a great body or olive skin... She was Egyptian, a hand maiden and obviously young ebough to bear children. In being snarky I suggest that Abraham was hapoy about it. Forget all that... It was only for fun.

But the poi t is that they had a plan which was different from God's. That is what Romans 4 is speaking of.

Yes, abraham had to obey God. Not only in leaving Ur, not only in having Isaac and not only in offering him up (which was not a work that produced faith). So yes obeying his word is needed.

 

[Stranger]

‘Ro 4:3 — "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” God came to Abram and said that He would give Abram a land that He would show him. Abram wasn't declared righteous because he believed the promise though he did believe in the land and that God could give it to him. He was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land!

In the same way, we are not saved by believing the gospel, the Bible, in eternal life and that God can give that to us, etc. — we are saved by obeying what God tells us we must to in order to receive those gifts which is "REPENT towards God and FAITH in Christ" (Acts 20:21, cf. Acts 17:30, 26:20, 2:38).

Now you can call it whatever you want .. "works" seems to be the popular reply. But if Abram hadn't gotten up and left Ur, he would not have received the land, much less would God be telling us about him today. What you could do is actually obey knowing that the scriptures that mention works are talking about works of the flesh and of the law and are not spiritual works like belief and repentance.

skypair

(Rom. 4:3) does not pertain to Abraham leaving the land. It pertains to Abraham believing God concerning God's promise that Abraham would have a son of his own body. Thus nothing but 'faith' was required as Abraham and Sarah were both too old. This is clear as the quote of (Rom. 4:3) comes from (Gen. 15:6).

God could have counted Abraham righteous when he left for Ur. But He didn't. Why? Because He created a salvation by faith alone.

So your declaration that Abraham "was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land", is a false statement.

Stranger

 

[skypair]

what is that exactly, that God is going to do? to them in particular i mean

This is speaking of the tribulation on the earth and that those who didn't obey the gospel will be left behind to suffer. Later in the epistle, 2:10-12, he says that some who "received not the love of the truth" will convert at last but perish (I happen to think that they will all be martyred) .. others will "have pleasure in unrighteousness" and be damned in death.

skypair

 

[skypair]

(Rom. 4:3) does not pertain to Abraham leaving the land. It pertains to Abraham believing God concerning God's promise that Abraham would have a son of his own body. Thus nothing but 'faith' was required as Abraham and Sarah were both too old. This is clear as the quote of (Rom. 4:3) comes from (Gen. 15:6).

Doesn't matter .. if Abraham hadn't done what you KNOW he had to do, there would be no Isaac.

God could have counted Abraham righteous when he left for Ur. But He didn't. Why? Because He created a salvation by faith alone.

So you're saying that Noah "became heir of righteousness that is by faith" through what he had done (Heb 11:7) but Abraham didn't even though he left Ur by faith (11:8)? Needless to say, I don't think you have a case. In fact, I would point out that everything that we do by faith is counted for righteousness, stranger.

So your declaration that Abraham "was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land", is a false statement.

You apparently don't pay to much attention to the immediate context, do you.

skypair

 

[Stranger]

Doesn't matter .. if Abraham hadn't done what you KNOW he had to do, there would be no Isaac.


So you're saying that Noah "became heir of righteousness that is by faith" through what he had done (Heb 11:7) but Abraham didn't even though he left Ur by faith (11:8)? Needless to say, I don't think you have a case. In fact, I would point out that everything that we do by faith is counted for righteousness, stranger.


You apparently don't pay to much attention to the immediate context, do you.

skypair

Actually, I did pay attention to the context. You're the one who said, 'doesn't matter'. The context is clear that Paul in (Rom. 4:1-25) is talking about the imputation of righteousness by faith without works. (4:6) "Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness, without works." But you want to turn it around and say it says just the opposite.

As I stated before, God could have counted Abraham righteous in leaving Ur and going to the land. But He didn't. Abraham had faith when he left Ur, but God chose not to use that period of his faith to count him righteous. He chose a time years later when Abraham could do nothing to add to his faith. A time when all he could do was trust God to do, and not himself.

Noah is not the one in whom God established and defined the 'righteousness by faith'. Abraham is. Noah, just as the rest of those listed in (Heb. 11), were heirs of the 'righteousness by faith'. That they exercised that faith throughout their lives at different times is immaterial to the fact that the 'righteousness by faith' is a righteousness that is imputed without works.

Whenever we exercise our faith, we are exercising the faith that 'imputes righteousness without works'. But the imputation of righteousness on our behalf is done at a time when we exercise faith alone, without works.

Stranger

 

[bbyrd009]

This is speaking of the tribulation on the earth and that those who didn't obey the gospel will be left behind to suffer.

so you say, but i just checked again, and i can't find "repent of your sin to God" anywhere, wadr
Bible Search: repent of your sins to God

so much for all that "on earth as it is in heaven" bunk, huh

 

[skypair]

Whenever we exercise our faith, we are exercising the faith that 'imputes righteousness without works'. But the imputation of righteousness on our behalf is done at a time when we exercise faith alone, without works.

I am certain that I don't understand this concept — "exercising faith" — that you are talking about. My understanding has alway been that repentance is an act of faith. Does that mean it is not a "work?"

skypair

 

[skypair]

so you say, but i just checked again, and i can't find "repent of your sin to God" anywhere, wadr
Bible Search: repent of your sins to God

How about Acts 20:21 — "Testifying both to the Jews, and also the Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ." How about Job 33:27-28 — "And if anyone shall say [to God], 'I have sinned and perverted that which is right and it profited me not.' Then God will keep his soul from going into the pit…" Lk 18:13 comes to mind, "God be merciful to me, a sinner." "That man went down to his house justified." ~Jesus

If you still have trouble with the concept, I've got more.

skypair

 

[bbyrd009]

How about Acts 20:21 — "Testifying both to the Jews, and also the Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."

imo "to-ward" is diff than "to," not to pick nits, but you don't commit sin to God, right, and you aren't called anywhere to confess your sins to God; confess your sins one to another, toward God

 

[bbyrd009]

How about Job 33:27-28 — "And if anyone shall say [to God], 'I have sinned and perverted that which is right and it profited me not.' Then God will keep his soul from going into the pit…"

well yikes, even in your tortured Tranny "to God" is in parenthesis, right? where did you even get that Trans? Bet if you threw it in a fire, it wouldn't even burn lol
Job 33:27 And they will go to others and say, 'I have sinned, I have perverted what is right, but I did not get what I deserved.
pick one, any other one, and ask Lex, imo
Job 33:27 Lexicon: "He will sing to men and say, 'I have sinned and perverted what is right, And it is not proper for me.
"he will sing to men and say..."

 

[bbyrd009]

Lk 18:13 comes to mind, "God be merciful to me, a sinner."

diff action, diff direction, diff concept, seems to me, now we're discussing prayer, not rebound

If you still have trouble with the concept, I've got more.

ok ty, i'll bear that

in mind

 

[skypair]

imo "to-ward" is diff than "to," not to pick nits, but you don't commit sin to God, right, and you aren't called anywhere to confess your sins to God; confess your sins one to another, toward God

We owe our repentance to God and our faith to Christ. In Job 33:26, you may see where I got "pray to God." Lk 18:13 is a real situation of the real sinner repenting to God. This may not be your experience and I can understand that. But for me, it worked like "grace."

skypair

 

[ScottA]

‘Ro 4:3 — "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.'” God came to Abram and said that He would give Abram a land that He would show him. Abram wasn't declared righteous because he believed the promise though he did believe in the land and that God could give it to him. He was declared righteous because he believed what God told him he must do in order to receive the land!

In the same way, we are not saved by believing the gospel, the Bible, in eternal life and that God can give that to us, etc. — we are saved by obeying what God tells us we must to in order to receive those gifts which is "REPENT towards God and FAITH in Christ" (Acts 20:21, cf. Acts 17:30, 26:20, 2:38).

Now you can call it whatever you want .. "works" seems to be the popular reply. But if Abram hadn't gotten up and left Ur, he would not have received the land, much less would God be telling us about him today. What you could do is actually obey knowing that the scriptures that mention works are talking about works of the flesh and of the law and are not spiritual works like belief and repentance.

skypair

Bazing!