AD already fulfilled?
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GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Absolutely yes. This is one of the biggest failures in these eschatology forums, because modern prophecy is littered with dispensationalist futurist interpretations, some of which I agree with, and some of which I strongly disagree with.
Part of what causes this disturbance is the introduction of Preterism into the discussion. Again, I partly agree with it, and strongly disagree with other parts of it.
I do believe Preterism has entered into the discussion because of the abject failure of modern prophecy to treat the historical nature of the Olivet Discourse. Plainly, Jesus meant this Discourse to focus on the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans, and on the destruction of the temple in 70 AD.
And yet, modern prophecy enthusiasts, who are futurists, want *everything* to be about future prophecy, when plainly, there are many prophecies that were fulfilled in history!
The Abomination of Desolation is referred to in the book of Daniel, and there are two of them, and not just one of them. One AoD referred to Antiochus 4, and you can read that in Dan 8 and Dan 11, as well as in the last part of Dan 12.
The end of history is dealt with in Dan 7 and in the 1st part of Dan 12.
The historical AoD and its time period is dealt with in Dan 9 and in the 1st part of Dan 12.
Thus, it is my view that the AoD was fulfilled in history, specifically in the reign of Antiochus 4 and in the Roman destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 AD.
The Antichrist is never said to be an AoD! But clearly, the AoDs of history are lookalikes of the Antichrist, and clearly predecessors in a sense, or prototypes, or foreshadowings of the Man of Sin.
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
- Antichrist will sit in the Temple of God: Third Temple or the Jews soon to be built....
antichrist-will-sit-in-the Jaewish temple and say he is God = the abomination of desolation
4 Anti-christ===Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4) KJV
GISMYS_7
Well-Known Member
Think!!! No anti-christ will sit in the body of Christ!!!
- Antichrist will sit in the Temple of God: Third Temple or the Jews soon to be built....
antichrist-will-sit-in-the Jaewish temple and say he is God = the abomination of desolation
4 Anti-christ===Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (2 Thess. 2:3-4) KJV
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Jesus indicated that Herod's temple would be destroyed. And the Jewish People would not be reconstituted as a spiritual people again until he returned.
38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”
3rd temple is the body of Christ
Matthew 26:61
And said, This fellow said, I am able to destroy the temple of God, and to build it in three days.
Hebrews 10:20
By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Jhn 19:37 - And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
The Church replaced Israel!
Matt 21:43
Matt 21
21:33 - Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, (God) which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, (Israel) and went into a far country:
21:34 - And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, (prophets) that they might receive the fruits of it.
21:35 - And the husbandmen (Jews) took his servants, (prophets) and beat one, and killed another, and stoned another.
21:36 - Again, he sent other servants more than the first: and they did unto them likewise.
21:37 - But last of all he sent unto them his son, (Jesus) saying, They will reverence my son.
21:38 - But when the husbandmen (Jews) saw the son, they said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and let us seize on his inheritance.
21:39 - And they caught him, and cast him out of the vineyard, and slew him.
(Crucifixion of Christ)
21:40 - When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
21:41 - They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
21:42 - Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?
21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church)
21:44 - And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder. (The Jews)
21:45 - And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You're reading way too much into Jesus' statement. 1st, the "Church" is defined as an entity that consists of *all* nations, including the nation of Israel. So there is no possible "replacement" that you suggest.
2nd, there is in fact a *temporary* displacement of the nation Israel for other nations that become Christian nations. Israel has temporarily chosen *not* to become a Christian nation, erasing her placement within the international Church.
But this does not prevent Israel from choosing to become a Christian nation after Christ returns. The Scriptures indicate that God made irrevocable promises to Abraham that his heir, the nation Israel, could have a guaranteed place within the Church. You can find this in the OT Prophets, where Israel is promised a final deliverance from backsliding and from their enemies. And you can also find this in the NT, where Jesus indicated Israel would be saved, as a nation, at his coming.
Acts 1.6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.
In this last quote you have *absolute proof* that Jesus understood the OT promise that Israel would be restored. He only said that Christians are not given the exact time when it will take place.
no like all others they must convert
the one true church is eternal
Luk 1:32 - He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
Luk 1:33 - And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.
21:43 - Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. (The new covenant church)
Zechariah 13:6
And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
Matt 23:17 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Matt 23:38 - Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
Matt 23:39 - For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
You just quoted, in Matt 23.39, proof that Jesus believed Israel would be restored to the Church! So how can you say no? You argue against what Jesus said! Undoubtedly, Israel has backslidden as a nation. But Paul argued that at present, a Christian remnant maintains the hope that the nation as a whole will be reconstituted as a Christian nation. The very existence of a Christian remnant *proves* that Jews can convert to Christ.
When I say the whole nation will be converted I don't at all mean that *every Jew* will be converted. The process of Israel's full national conversion simply refers to the entire "politic" of the nation being transformed form non-Christian to Christian--not that every citizen of the State will be born again.
What it means is that before the nation fully converts to a Christian government, many Jews will have to be judged and removed, so that the vast majority will convert, without opposition, to Christianity. Then the nation can indeed form a Christian government, just as many nations in history have formed Christian governments.
The salvation of *all Israel* has never meant that all Jews will convert--only that the entire government of Israel will convert to Christianity. If you deny this, then you will have to either deny that there have *ever* been Christian nations, or you will have to somehow explain why God has allowed many nations to convert to Christianity while denying Jews the same in their own nation?
Instead of just arguing that Jews have traditionally rejected Christianity as a people, why don't you deal with the *hope of Israel,* which is that things can change, when God disciplines a nation over time, and ultimately brings final judgment down upon that nation?
God has withheld final judgment so as to allow the process of evangelism to continue. But when nations become hardened in their rebellion, it becomes time to bring judgment, so that the nations can be reconstituted having had the recalcitrant members of those nations removed.
so how many Jews have done so?
They must convert on an individual basis to Christ and His church like everyone else
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I couldn't agree more. The number in the Christian remnant of Israel is very small. But Paul indicates that God has reserved for Himself a number as a token to the promise that He will eventually restore the nation to faith.
Every individual in the saved nation must *personally* come to faith in Christ to have eternal life. But the entire nation coming to salvation has more to do with returning to covenant status with God, as in the New Covenant.
Salvation, to the Jews, has always been a matter of returning to life from death, as in deliverance from their enemies. Historically under the Law, Israel was delivered from their enemies and from death itself when they return to obedience under their covenant.
And so, saving the whole nation conveys the idea of returning to a covenant of life, rather than with every individual getting "saved" in the evangelical sense. It is a matter of the entire nation adopting a covenant that places them, once again, in favor with God so that they will *never again* be destroyed.
When Israel, as a nation, returns to God in Christian Covenant, then the nation, as a whole, will be preserved from all future attacks by their enemies. The nation will obtain final deliverance. They will, as a nation, have God with them to protect them from henceforth.
As for individual salvation, that is, as you said, a matter of each individual embracing Christ as Savior. We are completely in agreement on this.
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Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand
"
The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.
Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.
" The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.
Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.
No, that was a type
Matthew 24:2 "And Jesus said unto them, "See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
As the disciples were standing and commenting on the magnificence of the structures, Jesus told them that at His coming, after the wrath of God's anger was upon the earth, not one stone of these beautiful structures would be left standing one stone upon another.
Many so-called critics show their ignorance when they tell us that this event happened when The Roman General Titus came against Jerusalem in 70 A.D., and destroyed the city. However one of the points of interest of all tours to Jerusalem is the wailing wall. This is wall that stands as the only part of Jerusalem that was left of old Jerusalem, at it's destruction.
Jesus prophecy in verse two tells us that "there shall not one stone upon another," and that condition has not happened yet. All of the stones of the temple will be turned to dust, at that end of this earth age. Zechariah 14 gives us a profile of how Jerusalem will be, and the events that shall transpire at that time. When Satan has taken his seat in Jerusalem, fulfilling the role of the Antichrist.
This prophecy will be fulfilled at the below
Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."
This will happen on "the day of the Lord". God will shake the earth and send fire and brimstone upon it. The earthquakes will flatten the cities to where not one stone will stand upon another. Those two great mountains will shake, and the mount of Olives will split. All prophecies concerning Christ return include Mount Zion, and the Mount of Olives will be fulfilled. This is where Christ's feet will touch the earth, when He returns.
Then at the seventh trumpet, and Jesus Christ's return there will be a great shaking that will level the city of Jerusalem. At that shaking not one stone will be left upon another. Yet God will make a way of escape for his elect on that day. Then the "east gate", the one facing the "sun to the temple" will open a way of escape for God's people. That way will be there, and this destruction is not to be feared by one of God's elect.
Yes! Just before the Army of Rome came in the temple was being run over by the children of the devil or these fake Jews. These children desegregated everything that was holy and they set it on fire.
There really are fake Jews in this world, a lot of them are in the US Congress.
Why is that? Because the Pilgrims were the children of Israel.
Everyone should read "War of the Jews" by Flavius Josephus.
It's on the Internet.
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Matthew 24:15 "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoso readeth, let him understand
The "abomination" is when Satan stands in Jerusalem, and proclaims that he is God, and the world believes it. The "desolation" is an incorrect translation into the English, which should read "desolator", and Satan is the desolator that will make the claim that he is God, the true Christ. "Desolation" is a condition, in the Hebrew manuscripts it is written, "On the wings of the desolator," this is not a condition, but a entity, a person. It is through this individual, Satan that the abomination shall come from. It is the desolator [Satan] that shall cause all but the sealed of God, to become desolate, or deceived.
Daniel 9:27 "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and the determined shall be poured upon the desolate."
The Holy place is the place that the temple sits, and this is the subject for the very first, when the buildings of the temple were observed by the disciples, and the question of what it would be like at His second advent. This is where the desolation [Satan, the Antichrist] shall sit on mount Zion, making his abominations, or statements that he is the Christ.
no I believe it is the anti-Christ and the holy church is the temple
The body of Christ is the 3rd temple
Destroy this temple and in 3 days make it rise again
Matt 21:43 the church replaced Israel
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