Adam and Eve Did Not Have Free Will!

[FHII]

While I don’t have questions about whether free will exists (I know we don’t have it), I feel that I wasn’t invited to the “Free Will” thread, so I am starting my own. If you have questions about whether God planned everything before he even made this planet, including Adam and Woman’s roll, guess what? This thread is for you!!!!

Adam and Jesus share a special relationship in the Bible… We see it in these verses:

Romans 5:13-14:

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. But not as the offense, so also is the free gift. For if through the offense of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.


Adam was likened to being a figure of Jesus Christ. We also understand this relationship to be that we are all sinners because of what Adam did (though the Bible also says it was Eve that was in the transgression), but we are made righteous through Jesus Christ.

When did Christ fix it? We can say roughly 33 or 34 AD, and that is when he was crucified and risen. This is true, but there are some other verses to consider.

Mat 25:34:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

This means that the kingdom prepared for God’s chosen was actually prepared for them before Genesis 1 began. At the very latest, by the beginning of verse 2 [if you don’t know why I say that, please refer to Veteran’s early posts in the “Did God Create Evil” thread].

I purposely put these letters in red because in your Bible you know what that means. Jesus was saying because of His Gift, the kingdom was prepared.


Next we go to Luke 11:50

That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundations of the world, may be required of this generation;

Here we see the blood of the prophets was shed from the foundations of the world. It is going to be required of this generation (speaking of them who were living in the days of Jesus on Earth), but that blood was shed before they were even alive. I could argue that it includes that of the Apostles too. That blood wasn’t even shed yet and Paul was not even thinking of being an Apostle at the time. He was the enemy! What is said here can only mean one thing: the murders of the prophets and Apostles was all preplanned to happen before they were alive, and before Adam was alive since it was from the foundations of the World.

For brevity’s sake, I will also mention Eph 1:4, Heb 4:3, Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 also note similar things were done from the foundations of the world. Feel free to have a look at them at your leisure. However, if you want to focus on “from the foundations…” and argue when the foundations were set (and I see no reason to believe it was Gen 1:1 or 1:2), please read on.

1Pe 1:20

Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Please feel free to check the context of this verse. It’s talking about Jesus Christ offering his blood for us. It was done before the foundation, which predates Genesis 1:1, 1:2 or any other date you want to give. Even if you want to argue that this “foundation” started in Gen 3, fine… He was slain BEFORE that.

I am not including every verse I know of that refutes the theory of free will. I am only talking about one thing when it comes to free will: Did Adam have it?

Adam named all the animals, and thus it was said he had free will. He didn’t. He had permission. For Genesis 2:19 says:

And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and [the LORD] brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

God commissioned Adam to do it. Yes, He allowed Adam the free will to pick the names (you’re a dog, you’re a rabbit, thou shall be called a baboon, and you are a skunk!). But it was by permission. Adam didn’t decide to call them names; he just decided what the names would be. God made the choice to give Adam that right. It’d be like me saying I have free will if my boss said, “You can have a day off next week; any day you want!” I get to pick a day, but I didn’t get to choose that I have a day off.

I will be returning to this at another time. We do have some “free will”, but only by permission. We don’t have ultimate free will. Some of you know that to be true and have admitted it (I’m talking to you Veteran!). God reserves the right to intervene at any time. I believe he does more often than not. But it is clear our individual salvation was predetermined.

But let me get to the point. If Adam and Woman (remember, she wasn’t called Eve until after the fall) had free will, why then was Jesus already either chosen to die, foreordained to die or already dead? Why was the kingdom already prepared with the rules that we believe on Jesus? Why were the Apostles and Prophets already slain?

In the earthly chronology, Adam and Eve sinned, and Christ died and rose. We were all made sinners, then someone paid the price and freed us. However, according to God, the timeline is different. Someone paid the price and freed us, and then the crime was committed.

So, how is it that Adam and Eve had free will? Jesus already made the sacrifice. He paid the price before Adam and Eve did what they did. We can only come to three conclusions:

1. God died just in case Adam would fall, thus setting up an insurance policy.
2. God knew Adam would fall, and since he could do nothing about it, and he couldn’t even just refrain from putting Adam in that situation.
3. God planned Adam to fall.

The first is ridiculous. The second is not only ridiculous, but blasphemous. If God wanted to stop it, he would’ve just not put Adam and Eve and the Tree in the same Garden. Only the third option is reasonable.

So I conclude that Adam did not have free will. He was ordained to take that fruit and fall. If not, why did Christ already die?

It’s actually very encouraging to me… God provided the solution BEFORE the problem. So I have faith that whatever problem I have or get myself into, the solution has already been thought up, or provided. Praise God!

I want to give you two more verses. Isa 46:9-10:

Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My councel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Declaring does not only mean “to know”, but also to make happen. Sure… Go to Strong’s, and look at the word… But God said his concel shall stand and he will do his pleasure.

Adam did not have free will. He fell on his own, but it was preplanned.

 

[tomwebster]

While I don’t have questions about whether free will exists (I know we don’t have it), ...

By this you are saying you are part of the elect.

 

[aspen]

I was just trying to keep my thread on topic FHII - I didn't want it to be a repeat of the other thread, denying freewill - no offense, I like talking with you.

What if we where all predestined before the Fall and then after we responded to Christ?
What if Jesus would have come for us even if we didn't Fall and He would have never had to die?
Are you claiming that God really chose the names of the animals for Adam? Why would He even bother asking Adam to name them?

 

[justaname]

The beginning is to admit that God is in control. Then you see there is no free will. Because there is a price for sin which is death. Romans 6:23
You can choose to obey or rebel, but your will or decision far from free.
To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs 9:10

 

[aspen]

The beginning is to admit that God is in control. Then you see there is no free will. Because there is a price for sin which is death. Romans 6:23
You can choose to obey or rebel, but your will or decision far from free.
To fear the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Proverbs 9:10

Without freewill humanity is not culpable. Without freewill God created us to sin and His Son died in vain. Without freewill, we are created for paradise or to be tortured for eternity. Sorry, my Good Loving God is not a sadist

 

[FHII]

Are you claiming that God really chose the names of the animals for Adam? Why would He even bother asking Adam to name them?

That's not what I said, Aspen. God made the decision to let Adam chose the names.

 

[Templar81]

Adam and Eve had free will but they didn't know very much so that wehn God told them they would die if they ate the fruit, they wouldn't ahve udnerstood the meaning of death because they would never have seen naything die or anything dead becuase they were in an imortal paradise.

Then the serpent speaks to Eve and tells her that they won't die by eating the fruit and because they don't know any better they eat it, but with eating it they get hindsight of what they have done and with it I think they gained the understanding of what death was.

So they had free will to stick to what God taught them or to resist the Serpent (that ancient serppent that is the devil or stan) but I bet they didn't have a clue who he was until afterwards. They didn't know that the devilw a the father of all lies, all they would ahve seen was a talking snake and wether other animals in Een could talk I don't know.

Has anyone here read Perelandra by C.S. Lewis? In thsi book there is another Adam and eve on the planet Venus in whihc Eve Eve (equivilent of Eve) is seperate from the Adam and cannot find him and it is in this time that she is tempted. The idea being that the man or the Adam would not have been dcieved by the Serpent who in this story takes the form of an undead man, posessed by satan.

 

[aspen]

That's not what I said, Aspen. God made the decision to let Adam chose the names.

So God decided to give them freewill?

 

[justaname]

Without freewill humanity is not culpable. Without freewill God created us to sin and His Son died in vain. Without freewill, we are created for paradise or to be tortured for eternity. Sorry, my Good Loving God is not a sadist

I think you misunderstand what it is I am attempting to convey.

I agree we have the ability to choose. I can choose chocolate or strawberry ice-cream. I can choose my favorite baseball team. I can choose to sin or repent. Yet with every choice I make there is consequence.

With Adam and Eve they lived under God's command. Genesis 2:16
They died. Where is their freedom from death? Free will or will at a price? I believe our will to be conditional and not free. I think the concept of freewill is misleading and is from Satan.

God did give us the ability to choose, else there would not be the fall of Adam. But our choices are far from free.

 

[aspen]

Every choice has a consequence - it is the nature of making a choice. If this is your definition of freewill - not even God has freewill.

 

[justaname]

Every choice has a consequence - it is the nature of making a choice. If this is your definition of freewill - not even God has freewill.

I agree. God is limited in His choices by His divine, holy nature. If God had freewill He would be able to lie, which He can not. Numbers 23:19 Titus 1:2
Also from Deuteronomy 32:4 we can see a pattern of how God must be.

In order for God and His word to be true, God must conform to His nature, thereby He does not have freewill.
(Conform may not be the best choice of words, but I think the idea is conveyed properly.)

 

[aspen]

I agree. God is limited in His choices by His divine, holy nature. If God had freewill He would be able to lie, which He can not. Numbers 23:19 Titus 1:2
Also from Deuteronomy 32:4 we can see a pattern of how God must be.

In order for God and His word to be true, God must conform to His nature, thereby He does not have freewill.
(Conform may not be the best choice of words, but I think the idea is conveyed properly.)

So really your definition of freewill is the ability to sin without negative consequences. Funny, I call that slavery.

Freewill is the ability to make creative choices within the limitations of one's definition.

Claiming a car can take you anywhere is true if you take into consideration the limitations brought about by it's definition. If you wanted to take the car past it's limitations you could do so, but only by misusing it. For example, if you wanted to fly using a car, you could drive off a cliff or be dropped from on airplane, but that would require misusing the car.

Computers have unlimited potential for storing, organizing, and processing data, but they cannot do so on the surface of the sun because they are not designed to do so.

True freedom and freewill are possible, but only within the context of the design of creation. We tend to believe that freewill is the ability to misuse creation without consequences or sin - this is not free, useful, or desirable.

So after writing this out, based on your definition of freewill, the term describes an impossible state of existence, like dehydrated water or boiling ice. If this is true, why even discuss it?

 

[FHII]

PLEASE! PLEASE! FOCUS! No one has addressed my main point. Whether we are God's elect is a good question, but it isn't THE question. Adam naming animals is a good question but it isn't THE question. I'll be happy to discuss them, but the direct question should be answered or addressed first.

Let me try again. Jesus was slain, picked to be slain, or foreordained to be slain (however you want to put it) BEFORE Adam and Eve fell. I listed and discussed the verses in the OP. If that is so, how can we say Adam and Eve had free will? Can we conclude they didn't? I listed several possible conclusions.

So if anyone would like to comment, please do so.

By this you are saying you are part of the elect.

In good faith that you'll look at the reason I posted, and consider posting a comment, I'll address this. Yes, but I anticipate it's not what you think. You may be thinking about certain passages in Mat 24 or Revelations, but Paul and peter and I believe John also (outside of Rev) addressed "the elect".

So God decided to give them freewill?

Aspen, I'm responding in good faith that you will address my original concerns. God gave them free will like a boss gives an employee free will to give a discount. The employee still needs the boss's permission, right?

 

[aspen]

Aspen, I'm responding in good faith that you will address my original concerns. God gave them free will like a boss gives an employee free will to give a discount. The employee still needs the boss's permission, right?

Yeah, I agree with that. However, I will add this clarification; the boss allows us freewill to explore everything in His will within the limits we are created. So, we are free to love in millions of different ways and in millions of different circumstances. In this scenario, we will never find the boundaries.

 

[justaname]

freewill
t The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

 

[aspen]

freewill
t The power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.

Let's look at this another way....

Is there anything we cannot do 'without the constraint of necessity or fate'? I am a Molinist - I believe that in addition to knowing everything that does or will happen, God also knows what His creature would freely choose if placed in any circumstance. Instead of acting like robots who are programmed to act, I believe in situational freewill. BTW, I just witnessed the conversion of my wife to Molinism after I explained it to her.

 

[justaname]

You define freewill with limitations, where in a pure sense there is no limits.
I see freewill as an oxymoron, as it is God who provides the fate of our discretion.

As a Christians we are bond-servants.
Bond servant
a person bound in service without wages
a slave or serf

As a nonbeliever we are bound to sin, and the penalty is death.
As a believer we are bound to God and are given the gift of salvation.

To dig a bit deeper in this thread, we are chosen by God and not the latter. Ephesians 1:4 Ephesians 2:10 1 Peter 1:2 Matthew 25:34 (many more I could post)
All people by nature are haters of God and at war with Him. No one in the world would therefore ever seek God on their own. But God, in His mercy, chooses people out of this world to be saved. Those who are "seeking" God are perhaps better described as people who are being drawn by God to Himself. God must cause a person to seek Him and He must choose a person before they will ever believe.

With this being the case, what then of Adam and Eve?
I believe they were predestined to fall. God's plan was already in place, not for insurance, but as a destination for the future.

 

[aspen]

You define freewill with limitations, where in a pure sense there is no limits.
I see freewill as an oxymoron, as it is God who provides the fate of our discretion.

As a Christians we are bond-servants.
Bond servant
a person bound in service without wages
a slave or serf

As a nonbeliever we are bound to sin, and the penalty is death.
As a believer we are bound to God and are given the gift of salvation.

To dig a bit deeper in this thread, we are chosen by God and not the latter. Ephesians 1:4 Ephesians 2:10 1 Peter 1:2 Matthew 25:34 (many more I could post)
All people by nature are haters of God and at war with Him. No one in the world would therefore ever seek God on their own. But God, in His mercy, chooses people out of this world to be saved. Those who are "seeking" God are perhaps better described as people who are being drawn by God to Himself. God must cause a person to seek Him and He must choose a person before they will ever believe.

With this being the case, what then of Adam and Eve?
I believe they were predestined to fall. God's plan was already in place, not for insurance, but as a destination for the future.

One person's oxymoron is another person's paradox :)

Jesus told us that we are no longer servants, we are friends. John 15:15

God chooses all of us - some chose not to respond. John 3:16, Romans 8:29

If Adam and Eve were predestined to fall, God's character would be evil. He would be sacrificing His own creation for His own glory. He would be a liar because He would tell A&E to not eat the fruit, while willing them to do it and then punishing them for doing it. If God set A&E up so that He could torture most of created humans for eternity, He would be culpable.

 

[FHII]

Yet, he did it. God knew they would do it, and he declared it from the beginning. It was God's counsel that it should stand and it did.

 

[aspen]

Yet, he did it. God knew they would do it, and he declared it from the beginning. It was God's counsel that it should stand and it did.

And if reality turned out differently, He would have declared that reality from the beginning as well. God is sovereign over time a space and dimension.