Adam had free will?

[Pilgrimer]

You choose what you are LEAD to choose by the intelligence and nature GOD has given you... and that is not freewill because everything you are, everything you like and hate is what HE created... you are HIS creation and you react according to what HE made in you.

If everything men do is pre-programmed by the nature and intelligence God has endowed men with, then every man would make the same choices.

Do you believe God is incapable of creating free moral agents?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[williemac]

Here again is the same kind of problem that I have suggested exists on this subject. Where is the definition of free will that everyone can agree on? It doesn't exist. I would say that we all have some validity on free will within the confines of our own understanding of what it is. But at the end of the day, it is merely a philosophical concept that has a multitude of definitions. So, why don't we simply look at our own nature and what the bible says about us and what it says about God's dealing with mankind, and then come to an agreement about what we are made of and what we are capable of? O, wait...that is what we are doing. And we still can't all agree.

But as I shared in another thread, what we can see from scripture is that God has given us the ability to think, reason,. and respond. However, He also has revealed that He gives grace to the humble and resists the proud.

The fact that we are stuck in a sinful body that some call a sinful nature, does not limit us in the area of humility. A sinner can indeed recognize he is a sinner and indeed acknowledge his need for mercy, salvation, and grace. Ask the simple question to anyone...are you perfect? The reply will be the same in every case...no one is perfect.

What we cannot do is change ourselves. But what we can do is respond to the offer of forgiveness. To some, the inability to change is the equivalent to having no free will. To others the ability to respond is the equivalent to having free will. This is the manifestation of the fact that we are discussing a term that has no agreed upon definition. I think it has become a distraction from what is really important..pride vs. humility. To me, this is the real issue that is behind even faith vs. unbelief. It is an issue that I don't see too many people wanting to talk about....I wonder why? No really...I don't get it.

 

[Sargento]

Pilgrimer...

If everything men do is pre-programmed by the nature and intelligence God has endowed men with, then every man would make the same choices.

Do you believe God is incapable of creating free moral agents?

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

???
Why would all man make the same choices??? Where did that came from?
You choose according to what GOD made you choose by the nature he gives you and the situations HE puts you trough.

Free moral agents??
Free from HIM SELF? What kind of desire is that Pilgrimer? Why are you even trying to deny His control over you? Do you not wish it?
Are trying to refute what is written by what GOD could do?

O LORD, I know that the way of man {is} not in himself: {it is} not in man that walketh to direct his steps.
Jeremias 10:23



WILLIMAC...


Tell me what is the free will you say man has... define it then so I can approve it or refute it.

 

[Selene]

When one believes that man has no free will, then one believes that sin is not our fault. When a person kills another person, it is not the killer's fault because he didn't choose to kill. So, then it becomes easy to put the blame on God.

Genesis 3:11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have YOU eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

God asked Adam, "Have YOU eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?" God is pointing to Adam showing that it was Adam's choice to eat the forbidden fruit.

Genesis 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this YOU have done?" The woman said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

God asked Eve, "What is this YOU have done?" When God pointed to Eve and asked "What is this YOU have done?" He is making it clear that it was her choice to do what she did and is responsible for making that choice. Both Adam and Eve had free will.

 

[Sargento]

Selene...

Try to understand...

If the killer choose to kill than he is responsible for it because he IS a killer, for that sin came out of his heart. And even if he didn't commit that sin he would still be a sinner because he is a killer (assuming we are talking about one).

Just like a lion is a killer because killing lives withing it's nature.
Is the lion to blame because of its killing nature? Of course not because he is how the creater made him, but in spite of it he is still a killer... the fact that he did not choose to be a killer does not makes him a non-killer because that's precisely what GOD made in him; a natural killer.

Just like this, a saint is a saint because HE made him a saint, and a sinner is a sinner because HE made him sinner...all within HIS plan to serve His own purpose.

And once that plan it's over the sinner will go to it's place, and the saint will go to it's place.

But, being GOD full a justice HE tells all man to repent (even tough HE knows they will not) so that everyone who claims free will be confronted in the last day with what their free will made for them.
So even the wicked will be judge by it's own terms (free will) and get convinced of their own sins ... and HIS justice will shine...
HE didn't have to do any of this because all are HE's, but HE gives them all this chance "if you can, then do it" so it be notorious that they really are what they were made, that they belong to the creator and are HIS work.

The elect know there's no free will, and will live by the grace of GOD in who they trust with all his heart, but the wicked who claims free will because he does not believe that he is enslaved will be judge by it's choices and if he did or did not believe in the gospel (which is what I'm talking right now).


But the truth is, this is not about blames, it's about what you are, not what you do... it's about being a son of GOD or not.

 

[Selene]

Selene...

Try to understand...

If the killer choose to kill than he is responsible for it because he IS a killer, for that sin came out of his heart. And even if he didn't commit that sin he would still be a sinner because he is a killer (assuming we are talking about one).

Just like a lion is a killer because killing lives withing it's nature.
Is the lion to blame because of its killing nature? Of course not because he is how the creater made him, but in spite of it he is still a killer... the fact that he did not choose to be a killer does not makes him a non-killer because that's precisely what GOD made in him; a natural killer.

Just like this, a saint is a saint because HE made him a saint, and a sinner is a sinner because HE made him sinner...all within HIS plan to serve His own purpose.

And once that plan it's over the sinner will go to it's place, and the saint will go to it's place.

But, being GOD full a justice HE tells all man to repent (even tough HE knows they will not) so that everyone who claims free will be confronted in the last day with what their free will made for them.
So even the wicked will be judge by it's own terms (free will) and get convinced of their own sins ... and HIS justice will shine...
HE didn't have to do any of this because all are HE's, but HE gives them all this chance "if you can, then do it" so it be notorious that they really are what they were made, that they belong to the creator and are HIS work.

The elect know there's no free will, and will live by the grace of GOD in who they trust with all his heart, but the wicked who claims free will because he does not believe that he is enslaved will be judge by it's choices and if he did or did not believe in the gospel (which is what I'm talking right now).


But the truth is, this is not about blames, it's about what you are, not what you do... it's about being a son of GOD or not.

The elect made the choice to live by God's grace. They said "Yes" to God and by their "yes," God took over. God did not come to rape anyone.

 

[Sargento]

Selene...

The elect made the choice because GOD changed its nature from hating GOD to loving HIM. They said "yes" because GOD already had token over. They were elect to say "Yes".

Selene, isn't the regeneration by it self a change in our will?
Isn't our regeneration it self a passage from this state:

"...But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know {them}, because they are spiritually discerned...."
1 Coríntios 2:14

...to this one?

"...But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. {judgeth: or, discerneth} {judged: or, discerned}
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ. {may: Gr. shall}..."
1 Coríntios 2:15-16

How do you want to say "YES" in that first state? Can a dead choose life?

How will you be saved without the will of the old man being raped? And not just raped, the old man must die so that a new one may born in it's place. This is what Christ was talking about when HE said you have to die to yourself... that's it's impossible to man, because even if he resists the impulses of sin in his flesh he will still be doing his own will... but when Christ kills our old man violating our free will that commandment becomes fulfilled in the elect.