After your born again do you think you will never sin again?

[amigo de christo]

not keeping up

on those feet learner and catch up .

 

[Wrangler]

You have to get consent every time or else it's rape

I don’t think God is a rapist, do you?

 

[Jack]

You indicated ...works.

Let me try again:

James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

[ShineTheLight]

A lot of water baptized but lost people as well as a lot of Christian noobs, read 1 John 1:8,9, and dont realize that John is not talking to the Christians.

So, here is something for the bible student.

The NT, the words in it, are not all created to be DOCTRINE for the Body of Christ.
And sometimes, you find Paul, or John........doing their ministry in the verse. And that ministry is to preach to unbelievers.

Now for those of you who have gone to Church, at least once in your life, .....if you were paying attention.......you'll note that sometimes the Pastor will say........"well, we all need Jesus"......."we all need to be saved"... "we all need to be forgiven""....."so, lets us now bow our heads and close our eyes, and spend a little time in God's presence"....

See that?.........That SAVED Born again Preacher, will say......>>>"WE all need to be forgiven".....>>"WE need Jesus"........

Yet......... and get this now.......pay attention........The Pastor is already saved, they are already forgiven .....>Yet They just talked to an unbeliever and said that : "WE need Jesus".
Yet this Pastor or Apostle already has Him........its the Unbeliever SINNER who needs Him.........Yet the Pastor-Apostle-Evangelist said....>>"we need". = WE

See that WE???.........

Now when you read 1 Jn 1:8,9........that is the same idea.........Its a SAVED Apostle.......who is 'made free from sin".....having become "the righteousness of God in Christ".........who just said......>"WE"..........but He's not talking about Himself, as some type of spiritual Equivalency with some Hell bound unbeliver.
Understand?
He's just saying what Preachers say, when they talk to unbelevers who dont have Christ, and they say.....>"WE need JESUS". "we need to be forgiven".....ect.

So, 1 Jn 1:8,9 is that same situation.

Now get the revelation, and get away from hyper religious people who read the bible like its a phone book or a dictionary, who dont understand it, can't discern it, should never be allowed to teach on a Forum, who only want to deceive you with their theological deception..

You are flat out wrong.

1 John 1:8-9 isn't talking about lost people. It's talking about those who are born again. None of the things in that chapter is talking about a lost person. It's talking about the so-called Christian. You preach an easy gospel. You say how people don't understand. It's you who doesn't understand. Always cherry picking on verses to fit your bias. You idolize Paul so much and make it look like other guys in the bible God has used don't exist. It's disgusting.

Jesus said what he could do to those in it with him who have been wicked. Even if they're born again, even those who are his own. He can appoint them a portion with the unbelievers/hypocrites. If he decides that's what he needs to do with that person. There's a passage where Jesus said that people have to deny themselves and the instructions of what to do. Something you don't seem to understand. You don't seem to comprehend things correctly. You love your simplicity. The bible calls out the simple ones, people who love their simplicity. You have been proving that. You oughta learn better.

 

[Wrangler]

Let me try again:

James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Real faith include work. The relationship is obvious. FAITH = BELIEF + ACTION

Anyone who thinks an all knowing God sent his son to suffer and die horribly for lip service is foolish. Anyone can say they believe. Demons believe. Belief does not make a transformative life.

Saying you believe doesn’t cost you anything! For us to have faith cost Jesus everything. Anyone who is not an idiot can see this does not equate. This is not justice, a life for lip service?! Come on people!

Just say you believe. You can keep whoring around. Stealing. Lying. Have nothing but anger, bitterness and shame in your heart. Only a fool can think this!

Jesus gave his life for me and I, in turn, gave my life to him; meaning I follow his example in obedience to God, the Father. To the degree of lip service. No! To the extent of life itself - and it takes work to give up your life.

 

[Jack]

Real faith include work. The relationship is obvious. FAITH = BELIEF + ACTION

Amen!

Anyone who thinks an all knowing God sent his son to suffer and die horribly for lip service is foolish. Anyone can say they believe. Demons believe. Belief does not make a transformative life.

Saying you believe doesn’t cost you anything! For us to have faith cost Jesus everything. Anyone who is not an idiot can see this does not equate. This is not justice, a life for lip service?! Come on people!

Just say you believe. You can keep whoring around. Stealing. Lying. Have nothing but anger, bitterness and shame in your heart. Only a fool can think this!

Jesus gave his life for me and I, in turn, gave my life to him; meaning I follow his example in obedience to God, the Father. To the degree of lip service. No! To the extent of life itself - and it takes work to give up your life.

Very well said indeed!

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The same is true of what Paul calls the "old man" and the new. We are not yet fully rid of our original sin nature, but we will be when Christ returns. Paul exhorts us to put off the old man and put on the new, and this is a continuing ~ again, for now ~ battle that we fight within, but fortunately... <smile> ...we have the Holy Spirit, Who helps us in our weakness.

You're right that our sin is no longer willful... we are no longer dead in our trespasses/sins as we once were. But we still sin, and more than we even know, really... nothing we do, even the good things we do, is/are completely sinless. This is why in this life continual confession (to God, not to a priest <>) and repentance is necessary. As John says, "If we confess our sins, He..." (God, of course) "...is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." As God says in Revelation 21:5, He is making all things new. We can live as if they are completely made new, because it is an absolute certainty ~ all God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus ~ but in this life not yet completely made new.

Our sin nature we inherited from Adam with Satan's nature only has willful lawless sins unto death and is also the reason why John 15:3 says it is CLEAN. When born again of the Spirit we are cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS, not just partially, or not at all as some teach who believe we now have two natures. 1 John 1:9 is not a "get out of hell free card" to be used over and over. It is actually how to become a Christian, the same as Peter's Acts 2:38. The type of sin that is cleansed from our nature is the worst type as I said according to 1 John 3:4-5. That is why 1 John 3:9 says we cannot commit this type of sin any more. The desire is gone.

Again, the simultaneous now and not yet. We can live as if we are completely made new, because we know we will be, because God promises it.

These are not "levels" of sin. The distinction is in whether we are justified by God and redeemed by the blood of Christ... and therefore repentant of our sin... or not. And if we are born again by the Spirit and thus in Christ, we are.

God disagrees. Read Numbers 15:22-36; and 1 John 5:16-17. You are making "repentance of sin" as if it is ongoing repentance. No, for us born again believers it is ongoing living free from sin. That is what Paul in Romans 6 means by "reckoning." It is a different mindset, given to us from the Author of our faith, Jesus. Like Proverbs 23:7, "for as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." What we believe tells in what we do.

Read Romans 6:11-12 this way with some corrections from the Greek to English. It had been mistranslated.
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord, 12 lest sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." (Here is what was removed from the beginning of 12 where also let became lest. "Therefore do not let...)

These are not "two works" of Jesus, but really just one. He is the author and finisher/perfecter of our faith, for sure (Hebrews 12:2), which is intimately connected with His statement to John in Revelation that He is the Alpha and Omega... the beginning and the end... the One Who makes it possible and completes it in us.

I stay with what the Word actually teaches, and it teaches two, with two manners of achievement, which are handled differently by Him. Sin unto death is taken away immediately with one swell swoop, changing our death to eternal life making us righteous; but then to go on to becoming holy, sin not unto death is taken away gradually like growth, and maturity. As long as you are abiding in Him in this latter period until you die, you still have eternal life, even if there are still immature fruit left to become mature and finished. If completely finished in this lifetime you are fully holy, and what Jesus preached on perfection. Matthew 5:48

"Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect."

The key is ABIDING IN HIM. That might require a change of lifestyle and even friends.

Again, you seem to have the distinction a little off... Just experientially speaking, everything we do is intentional and willful. But yes, we don't intentionally or willfully sin... in the sense that we don't confuse evil with good and we are repentant. We know sin ~ any and all sin ~ is wrong, and evil in God's eyes. John does in fact say here that "All wrongdoing is sin," so there is no ambiguity there; sin is in fact sin; by saying though that "there is sin that does not lead to death," He means there that forgiveness is possible because forgiveness is sought and because God is willing to grant it. It is surely not in the sense that the wages for some sin is death but not for others; all sin is repugnant to God.

Experientially and thankfully, I've been given a different mindset and have already repented decades ago. 1 John 3:21-22 "Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight." What is also interesting experientially, for the first 30 years of my life going to church not one of my prayers were answered; but since I repented of all my sin and immediately started abiding in Him, I always receive what I prayed for. I live my life in thankfulness because He does all the work. All I have to do is never do anything against my conscience where His laws and will resides.

All seven churches addressed in Revelation 2 and 3 are applicable to any and all churches through out the church age. They are not mutually exclusive with regard to any criteria, time included.

"The church age?" There are seven. Revelation 2 and 3 is a three-fold prophecy or "revelation." Now that we have reached the end, we can now look back at church history where it is revealed that the letters correspond exactly with 7 periods of church history IN ORDER. At the beginning they were addressed to seven different churches in seven different towns. The second fit types of character in believers. For instance, I am Philadelphian. Catholics and Orthodox are Thyatiraian. Reformed churches are Sardis which I jokingly call Sardines, as I think their doctrine is "fishy"

Any righteousness of our own ~ in and of ourselves ~ is an empty righteousness and not righteous at all, much less sinless. Christ's righteousness is credited to us, because, having been born again of the Spirit, we are in Christ.

What I hate about your common doctrine in the Church is that in your mind you will always be a sinner covered by Jesus' blood, but never actually free from sin. It is like playing "dress-up," or "make-believe."

We are being made new, yes. But we will not be completely rid of our sin nature until Jesus returns.

Your statement reminds me of the doctrine of demons that you will always have a sin nature until your body is resurrected. Oy veh!

This righteousness is counted to us, just as with Abraham.

Romans chapters one through eight is one teaching on sin and the Law. Abraham was BEFORE the Law (not about us). David was DURING the Law (not about us). And Romans 6, 7:5-6 and 8 is about AFTER the Law when free from the engraved Law, and now in the Spirit.

Not just the apostles... <chuckles> It applies to all Jesus's sheep, who are given to Him by the Father... who are all those saved, born again of the Spirit. Speaking to a group of Jews ~ not His disciples or his apostles ~ at the Feast of Dedication, He says:

"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, Who has given them to Me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one." (John 10:27-30)

The Apostle John liked to use "key words and phrases." What I highlighted in red means it is only about the Apostles as in John 6, 10 and 17. Also, besides the nation of Israel, the Apostles are the only people "predestined." Predestined just means chosen, not "saved." Judas was also predestined for his role.

God always answers prayer... <smile> ...just maybe not in the way we want Him to or think He should... <smile>

Actually, God always answers prayers that He hears. If it is not His will, He usually doesn't listen. (I'll have to find that scripture. It is in the Old Testament somewhere. Don't have time right now.) There are other various criteria in prayer. I remember one time when the children of Israel were complaining about the manna and wanting meat, God gave it to them (quails) but as they ate they dropped dead!

 

[RLT63]

I don’t think God is a rapist, do you?

Mary consented
Luk 1:38 - Then Mary said, “Behold the maidservant of the Lord! Let it be to me according to your word.” And the angel departed from her.

 

[Wrangler]

Mary consented

And so do we consent to the indwelling of the spirit EVERY TIME we are tempted and decide to kill our will and obey the will of God. Jesus said “follow me,“ which is NOT one and done. We choose anew to follow him with each step.

I‘m reminded of mercy shown to people who commit terrible crimes. No one can be rightly judged by their action on their worst day. Yet, the truth is a lifetime of righteous living can be undone by a single misstep, always to be known as what you did on your worst day. Take OJ Simpson, who was my childhood hero of the highest order. Great running back. Great personality. Movie star and Hertz car rental salesmen. This constitutes a lifetime of living the good life. He‘s not remembered now for this lifetime of work. He chose poorly one night.

 

[PinSeeker]

Our sin nature we inherited from Adam with Satan's nature only has willful lawless sins unto death and is also the reason why John 15:3 says it is CLEAN. When born again of the Spirit we are cleansed of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS…

We did inherit the sin nature from Adam, right; this is the natural human condition. Naturally, we are actually children of the devil (John 8:44). That’s terrible, right? However… <smile>

…Yes, thanks be to God, in being born again of God, we are cleansed by the blood of Jesus, sure, so we are no longer children of wrath like the rest of mankind (Ephesians 2). This is glorious, yes? Well, yes, stupendously so. Absolutely. However… <smile>

So… but yet… <smile> …in this life, we are not completely rid of the sin nature, and the irrefutable evidence of this is that we still sin, albeit not willingly… we try not to, and our desire is to do God’s will, because He is our Gather now… we are of Him… but we still have this natural propensity to sin, and we fail to abstain from it… we still sin. And Jesus says that if we have broken any one little part of His law it is as if we have broken it entirely. This is terrible, right? However… <smile>

In being born again, God has given us His Spirit. You know this. And the Spirit helps us in our weakness (Romans 8:26). He is our Helper (John 14), Who convicts us of the things of God (Hebrews 11:1; this is faith) and brings to our remembrance all that Jesus has said (John 14:26). He is making us like Jesus ~ this is what we were predestined for, to be conformed by God to the image of His Son (Ephesians 1:4-5). This is called sanctification, and it is a work of God, and in this life it is not a one-time, once-and-for-all thing… that would be our justification… but an ongoing work in us. And, as Paul writes in Philippians 1:6, He Who began a good work in us will ~ will, not “might” ~ bring it to completion at the day of Christ… when He returns. And we are back to absolutely glorious… <smile>

…not at all as some teach who believe we now have two natures.

We do. See above. When Christ returns we will be completely sanctified, completely like Jesus, completely of God, completely holy. To think we are in this life completely rid of our sin nature… have completely put off the old man and put on the new (2 Corinthians 5) and are thus completely holy and sinless is… just a denial of reality, really. We still sin, again, not willingly, but we cannot completely escape it in this life. Why? Because the old man is still with us… although passing away, but still with us. This is why, over and over again in different ways, we are exhorted to… flee from sin, to put of the old and put on the new, to, “…since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and run with endurance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus, the founder and perfecter of our faith, Who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God” (Hebrews 12:1-2). You kind of have to ask yourself, if we are completely rid of the sin nature, why are we exhorted to do this over and over again? <smile>

Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

1 John 1:9 is not a "get out of hell free card" to be used over and over.

Hmmmm... well it's not a "get out of hell free card," for sure... <chuckles> It's an assurance ~ given to us by God, actually, through John here ~ that because we are born again and in Christ, when we do confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. I mean, we are already assured of our salvation... this is what faith is, "the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen" (Hebrews 11:1; God gives us this assurance)... will never be subect to the wrath of God and will most assuredly not see hell but rather the New Heaven and New Earth. But again, with regard to sin and sinlessness, we must see both the now and the not yet.

It is actually how to become a Christian, the same as Peter's Acts 2:38.

God saves. He changes our heart from stone to flesh. And then we respond accordingly, because we are brought from death in sin to life in Christ. Peter says this in 1 Peter 1:3-5... "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to His great mercy, He has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God’s power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." We do not make ourselves Christians; we cannot make ourselves alive. As Jesuss tells Nicodemus in John 3, "unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God... unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God... (t)he wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit." Thus what both John and Paul say is true, that "to all who did receive Him, who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God, who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God" (John 1:12-13) and "it..." (being one of God's elect) "...depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy." (Romans 9:16).

The type of sin that is cleansed from our nature is the worst type as I said according to 1 John 3:4-5. That is why 1 John 3:9 says we cannot commit this type of sin any more. The desire is gone.

I do believe that God keeps us, because we are His, from committing the unforgivable sin, blaspheming the Spirit. But aside from that... well, sin is sin. Even the smallest of sins is tantamount to breaking God's whole law, as Jesus says... But again, as Christians, we can rest assured that... <smile> ...if we confess our sins ~ and repent of it, even if not perfectly (yet) ~ God is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God disagrees. Read Numbers 15:22-36; and 1 John 5:16-17. You are making "repentance of sin" as if it is ongoing repentance.

Again… the now and not yet. We have repented, but our repentance is not perfect… we have not perfectly turned from sin ~ it still easily entangles (Hebrews 12:1) ~ and perfectly turned to God. Like Paul says of himself in Romans 7, we still, at least from time to time <smile> find ourselves doing the very things we know we should not do and not doing the very things we know we should do… this is to war Paul says is going on inside him and we should see the same thing in ourselves. fact that we still sin

No, for us born again believers it is ongoing living free from sin.

We can only strive to do this. And because we are now of God, this is our desire. So again, the now and the not yet. We have been set free in Christ, but, though it is an absolute certainty, not until He returns will we be truly free.

(2 of 3) Continued below...

 

[PinSeeker]

That is what Paul in Romans 6 means by "reckoning." It is a different mindset, given to us from the Author of our faith, Jesus. Like Proverbs 23:7, "for as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." What we believe tells in what we do.

(3 of 3)

I agree, here, but a key word used by Paul is 'reckoning.' We should reckon ourselves ~ consider ourselves (ESV) ~ dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus. That very word, 'reckon' or 'consider,' strongly implies that we are not yet absolutely dead to sin and alive to God in Christ... it will not be completely so until Christ returns... and conquers, once and for all, sin and death.

Sin unto death is taken away immediately with one swell swoop, changing our death to eternal life making us righteous...

In one sense but not in another... <smile>

"The church age?" There are seven.

Nope. There are but two: the temporal and the eternal. The only "age" to come is eternity. There was a beginning... <smile> ... and there will be an end, and a new beginning that will have no end. <smile> The Bible, from beginning to end, is one story, not two (the Old and New Testaments) or four (as some dispensationalists believe), or five (as other dispensationalists believe), or seven (as other dispensationalists believe). <smile>

Revelation... the letters correspond exactly with 7 periods of church history IN ORDER.

Any particular church can fall into any one of the seven "categories," and maybe more than one at any particular time. They are, together, a comprehensive picture of what situations any of us can be in at any time.

At the beginning they were addressed to seven different churches in seven different towns. The second fit types of character in believers. For instance, I am Philadelphian. Catholics and Orthodox are Thyatiraian. Reformed churches are Sardis...

Ugh. <smile>

which I jokingly call Sardines, as I think their doctrine is "fishy"

<chuckles> To each his or her own, I guess... <smile>

What I hate about your common doctrine in the Church is that in your mind you will always be a sinner covered by Jesus' blood, but never actually free from sin. It is like playing "dress-up," or "make-believe."

Ah, well... <chuckles> ..."dress up" I would, at least in a sense, agree with, actually. God has clothed us in the righteousness of Christ. But again, this is faith... we are assured... By God Himself... of things hoped for, and convicted... by the Spirit, Who convicts... of things not seen. And yet again, this is the now and not yet. In part now, and assured, and one great day in fullness. It is certainly not "make believe." <smile>

Your statement reminds me of the doctrine of demons that you will always have a sin nature until your body is resurrected. Oy veh!

<chuckles> Yeah, see above... <smile> Again.... well, rhetorical questions for you: If we do not still have the natural in us, and thus the sin nature, at least in part, then why do we still sin? If it is not at least a small part of our nature now, why are we not perfectly sinless? <smile> Why are we not yet exactly like Jesus?

Romans chapters one through eight is one teaching on sin and the Law.

In part, but it's really about the natural human condition and what we, as born-again believers, have been brought, by God, from. Romans 8, then, turns and gives us the reality for us now, gives us what God has done for us. Romans 9-11 is about just who He has done this for, and then Romans 12-16 is about how then, in view of all this, we should live. It's the clearest exposition of the Gospel of Jesus Christ from beginning to end of anywhere else in the Bible.

...the Apostles are the only people "predestined."

We are all ~ because we are God's elect ~ "predestined for adoption to Himself..." (God, of course) "...as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of His will, to the praise of His glorious grace, with which He has blessed us in the Beloved" (Ephesians 1:5-6). Just because the Apostles were the Apostles, they are not no longer disciples ~ followers ~ of Jesus. And we are just like them in that respect... not Apostles as they were, but disciples ~ followers ~ of Jesus.

Predestined just means chosen...

No, it means our destiny ~ which is to be adopted to God as sons through Jesus Christ ~ is predetermined, by God. We are His Elect, which means we are His chosen. And this is from before the foundation of the world... "He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him (Ephesians 1:4)... which very closely parallels what Paul says to the Romans about God's Elect in Romans 9, "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad⁠ ~ in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of Him Who calls⁠ ~ she was told, 'The older will serve the younger.' As it is written, 'Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.'"

, not "saved." Judas was also predestined for his role.

The only predestination spoken of in the Bible is that of God's elect. The rest, as Paul says in Romans 1, God gives over to their own selfish passions and desires.

Actually, God always answers prayers that He hears.

Ah, hears... This is not a mere knowing about prayers. The hearing, as it is in the Bible where it is mentioned... "God heard his prayer"... is that He honored it and nswered it positively, because it was according to His will. But again, God answers all prayer, just not necessarily in the way we want Him to or think He should. <smile> But just in terms of what someone is praying for, God hears... knows about... everything... and answers it.

If it is not His will, He usually doesn't listen.

Well... "listen"... <smile> Again, that word can be understood validly in two different senses. We can listen and disregard something, but we can also listen and act upon that thing. But in both cases we are listening... and making an active decision regarding what to do as a result of merely hearing.

Grace and peace to you, 1stCenturyLady.

 

[CrowCross]

We are actually righteous, not just imputed with Christ's righteousness, 1 John 3;7, when He cleanses our sin nature, making it clean.

No, we have the righteousness of Christ
Secondly there is no verse that says our sin nature is cleansed. We still retain our sin nature.

Let me try again:

James 2:20
20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

Well Jack, I got some bad news for you if you thinks your works get you into heaven. Are you a Mormon?