Alive or Dead to Holiness

[Episkopos]

One cannot read the bible as just another book. There is a perspective that needs to be taken into account. God's perspective. That perspective is so often lacking in the private interpretations of bible readers...instead people tend to read the bible from their OWN perspective. But this distorts the message beyond any semblance of clarity or accuracy.

And because of this lack of understanding, many on this thread will misunderstand what I'm saying...and therefore miss the message just as in their own reading of the bible.

I would like to begin by the perspective itself. That perspective being God's...and concerns holiness.

Look at what Jesus says here...

"without Me you can do nothing" (John 15)

We can do nothing? We can't feed ourselves or go places or build things?

AH...but we see here that Jesus isn't talking about things in this world...but holy things...eternal things. So then we need to enter into Christ in order to be partakers of His holy things..the eternal things.

Heb. 12:10 "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."

We never get our own holiness. We partake of His holiness when we abide in Him. neither can we grow into His holiness. It is always His...never ours. So then we need to be taken to Him...translated into Him. So then holiness is about LOCATION...being IN Him.

So we are either in Him or out of Him.

Now comes the hard part... :)

Many claim to be in Him but are not bearing a holy fruit. Well then such are mistaken....these are in error. This kind of error leads to lies....and they who profess such lies become liars. And this happens because people want so badly to not seem to be lacking in any way...in a prideful kind of way. Pride gets in the way of understanding the truth.

 

[Episkopos]

So we see the great error in thinking that we can grow into holiness...as if we were to build up our own holy status for ourselves...what people call "the process of sanctification." But there is no process of sanctification. We are either in HIS holiness or out of it.

We can however grow while we are in HIS holiness...to the full stature of Christ.

So we aren't growing into our own full stature...but His. We are not growing in our own holiness...but are made partakers of HIS holiness when we enter INTO Him.

Salvation isn't digital...because of righteousness...which is a moving target. But holiness IS digital. You are either in or out of holiness. Even the smallest amount of sin destroys holiness....just as a little leaven leavens the whole batch.

In holiness no sin is possible let alone permissible.

So how can we become partakers of HIS holiness if there is no allowance for sin in holiness?

Well, that's what the cross of Christ is for.

We go to HIS cross to enter into HIM so as to be partakers of HIS life and HIS holiness.

Can we still be saved while not IN holiness...yes!

And here is another difficulty. The way the bible is worded. The perspective. It says..."without holiness no one will see the Lord"...but it doesn't say.."without holiness you will be thrown into the lake of fire."

God has made other provisions for the righteous because of His mercy and love.

So then salvation is not about holiness per se. Salvation is based on righteousness. And WE can learn to be righteous. We are redeemable to righteousness.

But holiness is something altogether other to that.

 

[Nancy]

One cannot read the bible as just another book. There is a perspective that needs to be taken into account. God's perspective. That perspective is so often lacking in the private interpretations of bible readers...instead people tend to read the bible from their OWN perspective. But this distorts the message beyond any semblance of clarity or accuracy.

And because of this lack of understanding, many on this thread will misunderstand what I'm saying...and therefore miss the message just as in their own reading of the bible.

I would like to begin by the perspective itself. That perspective being God's...and concerns holiness.

Look at what Jesus says here...

"without Me you can do nothing" (John 15)

We can do nothing? We can't feed ourselves or go places or build things?

AH...but we see here that Jesus isn't talking about things in this world...but holy things...eternal things. So then we need to enter into Christ in order to be partakers of His holy things..the eternal things.

Heb. 12:10 "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."

We never get our own holiness. We partake of His holiness when we abide in Him. neither can we grow into His holiness. It is always His...never ours. So then we need to be taken to Him...translated into Him. So then holiness is about LOCATION...being IN Him.

So we are either in Him or out of Him.

Now comes the hard part... :)

Many claim to be in Him but are not bearing a holy fruit. Well then such are mistaken....these are in error. This kind of error leads to lies....and they who profess such lies become liars. And this happens because people want so badly to not seem to be lacking in any way...in a prideful kind of way. Pride gets in the way of understanding the truth.

Hi Epi,
It seems most Christians I know, have no fruit that I can see yet, only God knows. I also liken 2 Corinthians 4:4 to overcoming all kinds of trials through Christ who strengthens us, in order to do His work on this earth.
"Gods Perspective" would be an awesome study!
xo

 

[VictoryinJesus]

One cannot read the bible as just another book. There is a perspective that needs to be taken into account. God's perspective. That perspective is so often lacking in the private interpretations of bible readers...instead people tend to read the bible from their OWN perspective. But this distorts the message beyond any semblance of clarity or accuracy.

And because of this lack of understanding, many on this thread will misunderstand what I'm saying...and therefore miss the message just as in their own reading of the bible.

I would like to begin by the perspective itself. That perspective being God's...and concerns holiness.

Look at what Jesus says here...

"without Me you can do nothing" (John 15)

We can do nothing? We can't feed ourselves or go places or build things?

AH...but we see here that Jesus isn't talking about things in this world...but holy things...eternal things. So then we need to enter into Christ in order to be partakers of His holy things..the eternal things.

Heb. 12:10 "For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness."

We never get our own holiness. We partake of His holiness when we abide in Him. neither can we grow into His holiness. It is always His...never ours. So then we need to be taken to Him...translated into Him. So then holiness is about LOCATION...being IN Him.

So we are either in Him or out of Him.

Now comes the hard part... :)

Many claim to be in Him but are not bearing a holy fruit. Well then such are mistaken....these are in error. This kind of error leads to lies....and they who profess such lies become liars. And this happens because people want so badly to not seem to be lacking in any way...in a prideful kind of way. Pride gets in the way of understanding the truth.

If what you mean is by alive in Him to walk in newness of Life ...to partake of His Holiness is to yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness. agree. It is His will His body yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness and bears fruit. the fruit of the Spirit, being the righteousness of peace and the Spiritual fruit that is therefore Holy.

Colossians 2:19-22 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

Hebrews 12:10-14 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. [11] Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby. [12] Wherefore lift up the hands which hang down, and the feeble knees; [13] And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. [14] Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Ephesians 5:9-10 (For the fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness and righteousness and truth [10] Proving what is acceptable unto the Lord.

Galatians 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, [23] Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law. [24] And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. [25] If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. [26] Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

James 3:16-18 For where envying and strife is, there is confusion and every evil work. [17] But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy. [18] And the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace of them that make peace.

So it appears the holiness we are to partake of and yield to, is the peaceable fruit of righteousness: in you and I are not against one another but rather for one another; in harmony of yielding to His good fruit. Not us only but the whole body being examples of the peaceable fruit of righteousness which is to partake of His holiness.

Philippians 1:10-11 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; [11] Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.

2 Corinthians 9:10 Now he that ministereth seed to the sower both minister bread for your food, and multiply your seed sown, and increase the fruits of your righteousness

“May God increase the fruits of your righteousness” and multiply bread for food.

 

[Episkopos]

If what you mean is by alive in Him to walk in newness of Life ...to partake of His Holiness is to yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness. agree. It is His will His body yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness and bears fruit. the fruit of the Spirit, being the righteousness of peace and the Spiritual fruit that is therefore Holy.

You are confusing the issue here by mixing up 2 things that are not directly related.

The peaceable fruit of righteousness comes from HIS correction...not His holiness. Holiness is already perfect.

But you are not going to understand this...you will disagree because you are not really understanding the OP.

God trains us so that WE would learn righteousness. That would be OUR righteousness. He trains us from His righteousness so that we might take on a righteousness that is inspired by Him....even though that righteousness is our own.

Of course God's righteousness is something completely different. As is HIS holiness. These always remain HIS.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,
It seems most Christians I know, have no fruit that I can see yet, only God knows. I also liken 2 Corinthians 4:4 to overcoming all kinds of trials through Christ who strengthens us, in order to do His work on this earth.
"Gods Perspective" would be an awesome study!
xo

This thread is indeed based on God's perspective...it is something that most never consider...so it won't be understood by many. God's perspective is in holiness. That is something that we can't relate to unless we have experienced it.

But even if we haven't yet experienced His holiness...if we read the bible carefully and honestly...we can get an idea as to just how different God thinks...compared with the way we think. :)

<><

 

[VictoryinJesus]

You are confusing the issue here by mixing up 2 things that are not directly related.

The peaceable fruit of righteousness comes from HIS correction...not His holiness. Holiness is already perfect.

But you are not going to understand this...you will disagree because you are not really understanding the OP.

The fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit of God. Never said holiness is not already perfect as God is perfect. The peaceable fruit of righteousness also, since it is a fruit of the Spirit of God is also,Perfect. You are right that I don’t understand...all I do understand is that God gives the increase. Was extending peace ...do you accept that even if we disagree on things ...we are still of the body of Christ and to bear “peaceable fruit of righteousness”.

 

[Episkopos]

The fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit of God. Never said holiness is not already perfect as God is perfect. The peaceable fruit of righteousness also, since it is a fruit of the Spirit of God is also,Perfect. You are right that I don’t understand...all I do understand is that God gives the increase. Was extending peace ...do you accept that even if we disagree on things ...we are still of the body of Christ and to bear “peaceable fruit of righteousness”.

For sure! :)

 

[Episkopos]

Gen. 2:17 “in the day that you eat from it you shall surely die.”

God told Adam that if he ate from the forbidden tree that he would die. The Devil said that wasn't true questioning God's authority over His own creation. Thus the first half-truth was spoken in the world. Adam didn't die from the Devil's POV...but he did from God's POV. He died to intimacy with God and the life of God. He died to the holiness of God.

So we have taken on the Devil's POV while we walk according to the flesh. We no longer understand that eternal life is in holiness. We no longer consider that the ministry of reconciliation entails a new connection with God as HE is...not as we are.


So the modern gospel serves man....rather than bringing us to a holy God to be empowered by true grace to walk as Jesus walked.

How many sins did Adam commit before rejection from the holy place?

How many offenses against the Spirit did Ananias and Sapphira get away with?

What of Uzzah and the cart? Why wasn't there mercy for his transgression of holiness?

So we see that where holiness is concerned...there is life or death. And we will see that God considers being outside His holiness as death.

When the prodigal son came back the father did say... Luke 15:32 It was meet that we should make merry and be glad; for this thy brother was dead, and is alive again; and was lost, and is found.'"

 

[John Caldwell]

"Holiness" has lost meaning to the world (and to the church as well). Decades ago there were echos of a sense of holiness even in secular society. I think these times are long gone.

 

[Episkopos]

When we partake of His holiness we do the works OF Jesus Christ. If we are allowing the Lord to do His works through us there is a great reward...not just salvation.

The righteous are scarcely saved...but the saints (holy) are abundantly saved.

Rev.2:25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26 And he that overcomes, and keeps my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

HIS works...the eternal kind of works. The works that were prepared in advance. The works that please God and honour Him.
Holiness doesn't just lead to salvation...but to glory and eternal authority. To rule with Christ.

This is the tiny flock that Jesus says are able to enter in through the narrow gate. These are His disciples that learn of Him...that learn IN holiness in the fear of the Lord.
Many, however will be saved...not by abiding in holiness...but by a careful walk in righteousness. We are saved by doing what is right in the fear of God.

 

[Nancy]

"Holiness" has lost meaning to the world (and to the church as well). Decades ago there were echos of a sense of holiness even in secular society. I think these times are long gone.

Yes, everything used to be closed every Sunday, folks said 'excuse me' and 'thank you'. Younger people never gave a second thought to giving up a seat for the elderly...it was a kinder time.
Now we have:

2 Timothy 3:2-5
2 People will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, 3 without love, unforgiving, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not lovers of the good, 4 lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God— 5 having a form of godliness but denying its power. Have nothing to do with such people."

Sad

 

[Episkopos]

Gal. 6:8 For he that sows to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that sows to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.

Now this concerns they who have the option to sow to one or the other. No one can sow to the Spirit if they are not in the Spirit...or at least are led by the Spirit. (actually the verse is more for the latter...they who are led by the Spirit but not actually IN the Spirit)

So then this is about choices. Our choices. Choices that lead to a future life in the Spirit...in this case. So then even though a person might not walk in the Spirit in this world...but is being led by the Spirit...there is a future hope of an eternal life in holiness.

Even though holiness is digital...either in or out...there is more than one ranking in the kingdom of God. Different proximities to Christ.

Whereas righteousness has many proximities in this life (as a moving target) but in the next world...the righteous are all in the same boat, so to speak....you are either saved into the nations or not.

So then among the holy are priests, kings and rulers in the next age. But all the righteous are in the nations.

So we must determine from which perspective we are seeing things from.

From the holiness perspective (God's)...people are either in or out of holiness. If not then you are deemed as "dead" from God's POV even if you are alive in the nations. You are simply not in His presence. There is no immediate differentiation between the righteous, the rejected filthy ones in outer darkness, or the wicked who are destroyed in the lake of fire. At least not in reference to holiness.

But from the carnal perspective (ours)...we are either saved or not. (You can tell who is carnal simply by their perspective.)
So then holiness looks from the top down....even as we look from the bottom up. From the top..the glass would appear half empty....but from the bottom it appears half-full.

It's all about perspective. But one needs to shift one's perspective towards God's to understand the bible. The bible is NOT written from the POV of men. (at least not they who have a carnal mindset)

 

[Episkopos]

Luke 9:58
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

What does this mean?

Does it mean that Jesus had nowhere to sleep? That He lacked a pillow?

Or is this about a place of rest in holiness on the earth?

Now, the church is supposed to be a place of rest for they who walk in holiness. But I fear that when the Lord returns He won't find very many places where holiness resides let alone presides.

 

[Nancy]

Luke 9:58
58 And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

What does this mean?

Does it mean that Jesus had nowhere to sleep? That He lacked a pillow?

Or is this about a place of rest in holiness on the earth?

Now, the church is supposed to be a place of rest for they who walk in holiness. But I fear that when the Lord returns He won't find very many places where holiness resides let alone presides.

Hi Epi,
May I ask, what is your idea of what holiness should look like in a Christian? Gods holiness, of course...just like Gods righteousness. It is not our own, correct? And also, what would you say differentiates walking in the Spirit vs being led by the Spirit? And remember, tell me in LAYMENS terms, lol!

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Epi,
May I ask, what is your idea of what holiness should look like in a Christian? Gods holiness, of course...just like Gods righteousness. It is not our own, correct? And also, what would you say differentiates walking in the Spirit vs being led by the Spirit? And remember, tell me in LAYMENS terms, lol!

Hey Nancy! Missed you today on the chat....:)

What does holiness look like?

When Paul came to a city the people remarked at how weak he was...having no natural power to him...so then holiness is to rely on God's strength alone...as in...no longer I who live.

2 Cor. 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

And His power (grace) is perfected in our weakness. So then we would be as dead men...not reacting in the flesh to things.

So then walking in the Spirit is the same as holiness.

But being led by the Spirit involves us being ourselves and fighting to stay in tune with God. It is a struggle to keep our focus on God all the time. (Like Ananias of Damascus who would have argued a little with God), So then being led by the Spirit involves us watching and praying. Whereas walking in the Spirit is to be already in His peace and rest...having been crucified to our own strength already.

 

[Nancy]

@Episkopos
Having a hard time with this computer Epi, just almost finished replying to your reply and it went whack a do on me! I'll come back later...thanks :)

 

[ScottA]

I would describe the God-verses-man perspective in this way:

(No private interpretation, just the biblical facts.)

The nature and perspective of men and that of the world is a "created" one, one that progresses in word and explanation, but not in the reality of God, for God is not created. The greatest difference in perspective therefore, is time.

Incidentally, time once began...and it also ends.

Now, there is nothing wrong with looking at our lives as ordered by God on this created timeline, and say for example, "I was born a babe, and in time I will mature and produce fruit"; in other words, "Yesterday I was, today I am, and tomorrow I will be." Jesus said something very similar, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tomorrow, and the third day I shall be perfected." Such is life in the world--or so it should be, even for Christ.

But (even for Christ), that is NOT the correct description of God, but rather He is "the same yesterday, today, and forever."

And therefore, the mistake that most make in reading the bible, is not to recognize that the words are a mix of both perspectives. Some are from our historic, progressive, timeline, imperfect perspective, and some are from God's timeless, perfect, "I am" perspective. Thus, it is written that we must "rightly divide the word", by "the renewing of your mind."

In such a new and different perspective, one should literally expect to have to go back and reconsider every passage in its proper perspective. But do not be discouraged, for it has been promised, that "knowledge shall be increased." And it has.

Good re-reading!

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But being led by the Spirit involves us being ourselves and fighting to stay in tune with God. It is a struggle to keep our focus on God all the time. (Like Ananias of Damascus who would have argued a little with God), So then being led by the Spirit involves us watching and praying. Whereas walking in the Spirit is to be already in His peace and rest...having been crucified to our own strength already.

Teresa of Avila described this! I'm not sure she understood it to be led vs. walking in, but she described a difference in prayer / communion with God that she likened to at first, drawing water up out of a well by hand vs later (after giving up everything), having a water wheel and so not laboring to draw the water because the wheel does the work.

 

[Nancy]

Hey Nancy! Missed you today on the chat....:)

What does holiness look like?

When Paul came to a city the people remarked at how weak he was...having no natural power to him...so then holiness is to rely on God's strength alone...as in...no longer I who live.

2 Cor. 10:10 For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.

And His power (grace) is perfected in our weakness. So then we would be as dead men...not reacting in the flesh to things.

So then walking in the Spirit is the same as holiness.

But being led by the Spirit involves us being ourselves and fighting to stay in tune with God. It is a struggle to keep our focus on God all the time. (Like Ananias of Damascus who would have argued a little with God), So then being led by the Spirit involves us watching and praying. Whereas walking in the Spirit is to be already in His peace and rest...having been crucified to our own strength already.

Thank you Epi,
There is a peace that was never there before, no worries about catastrophes or my roof flying off as, just knowing He would provide a way. I'm also aware that there is much more TO be crucified yet...
Thanks for your explanation and, I so hope to actually walk in His Spirit one day.