ALL SCRIPTURE is God-breathed

[Papa Smurf]

I think if the Lord wanted, he could establish a relationship with someone without the Bible.

No doubt, and yet, we know that that's not what He chose to do, with all except a scant few of us over the millennia. Why do you think that is

The "what if's" are always a fun way to go Bob, but since we know what God chose to do in regard to speaking to us as individuals, and thereby what He "wanted" to do, why are we bothering with conjecture?

--Papa Smurf

Psalm 1​

1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, ​

Nor stand in the path of sinners, ​

Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! ​

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, ​

And in His law he meditates day and night. ​

3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, ​

Which yields its fruit in its season ​

And its leaf does not wither; ​

And in whatever he does, he prospers.​

.

 

[Bob Estey]

No doubt, and yet, we know that that's not what He chose to do, with all except a scant few of us over the millennia. Why do you think that is

The "what if's" are always a fun way to go Bob, but since we know what God chose to do in regard to speaking to us as individuals, and thereby what He "wanted" to do, why are we bothering with conjecture?

--Papa Smurf

Psalm 1​

1 How blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, ​

Nor stand in the path of sinners, ​

Nor sit in the seat of scoffers! ​

2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, ​

And in His law he meditates day and night. ​

3 He will be like a tree firmly planted by streams of water, ​

Which yields its fruit in its season ​

And its leaf does not wither; ​

And in whatever he does, he prospers.​

.

The Bible is a tool the Lord can use to teach us.

 

[Papa Smurf]

The Bible is a tool the Lord can use to teach us.

Hello again Bob, you said, "the Bible is ~a~ tool that the Lord ~can~ use to teach us". Now THERE is something that epitimizes what an understatement truly is

Rather, the Bible is ~far and away~ THE (principal) tool that Holy Spirit uses to teach us, about Himself AND about us, as well what He uses to bring us to saving faith and sanctify us, and so very much more

--Papa Smurf

Joshua 1​

8 This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.​

​

Psalm 119​

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Thy word.​

11 Thy word I have treasured in my heart, that I may not sin against Thee.​

​

Psalm 119​

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.​

​

John 17​

17 Sanctify them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.​

​

Romans 1​

16 I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. ​

​

Romans 10​

17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

​

Romans 12​

2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. ​

​

2 Timothy 3​

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; ​

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. ​

​

And one more for good measure (and because it is one of my favorites ).

​

Deuteronomy 11​

18 You shall impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. ​

19 You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up. ​

20 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, ​

21 so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth. ​

.

 

[quietthinker]

The Bible is a tool the Lord can use to teach us.

even donkey's.

 

[Bob Estey]

Hello again Bob, you said, "the Bible is ~a~ tool that the Lord ~can~ use to teach us". Now THERE is something that epitimizes what an understatement truly is

Rather, the Bible is ~far and away~ THE (principal) tool that Holy Spirit uses to teach us, about Himself AND about us, as well what He uses to bring us to saving faith and sanctify us, and so very much more

--Papa Smurf

Joshua 1​

8 This book of the law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate on it day and night, so that you may be careful to do according to all that is written in it; for then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have success.​

​

Psalm 119​

9 How can a young man keep his way pure? By keeping it according to Thy word.​

11 Thy word I have treasured in my heart, that I may not sin against Thee.​

​

Psalm 119​

105 Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.​

​

John 17​

17 Sanctify them by Thy truth. Thy word is truth.​

​

Romans 1​

16 I am not ashamed of the Gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. ​

​

Romans 10​

17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

​

Romans 12​

2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect. ​

​

2 Timothy 3​

16 All Scripture is God-breathed and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness; ​

17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work. ​

​

And one more for good measure (and because it is one of my favorites ).

​

Deuteronomy 11​

18 You shall impress these words of mine on your heart and on your soul; and you shall bind them as a sign on your hand, and they shall be as frontals on your forehead. ​

19 You shall teach them to your sons, talking of them when you sit in your house and when you walk along the road and when you lie down and when you rise up. ​

20 You shall write them on the doorposts of your house and on your gates, ​

21 so that your days and the days of your sons may be multiplied on the land which the LORD swore to your fathers to give them, as long as the heavens remain above the earth. ​

.

I wouldn't call it an understatement, because the goal is have a relationship with the Lord, not to have a relationship with the Bible.

 

[Bob Estey]

even donkey's.

I don't think most donkeys own Bibles.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Which is more convincing of "how high and wide and deep the love/ affection/ tenderness of God is for us and to not loose heart for he has promised to be with us till the end of the age" - a relationship with the Lord or the Bible?

I wouldn't call it an understatement, because the goal is have a relationship with the Lord, not to have a relationship with the Bible.

Hello again Bob, we do seem to be in a loop now, but what the hey, we've gotta have some fun, right?

The "goal" of God giving us His breathed word is so that we could get to know Him and have a relationship with Him.

As I said earlier, and as I'm sure you already know, general revelation is GREAT for telling us that there is a wondrous/awesome Creator out there, but that's about all that we can really glean about God from looking at things like the stars. The rest, at best, would be conjecture.

If we want to know more, you know, things like "how high and wide and deep the love/ affection/ tenderness of God is for us and to not loose heart for he has promised to be with us till the end of the age", then we have to know Him, and this we CANNOT do w/o the special revelation that we find from Him in His personal letter to us called the Bible

--Papa Smurf

 

[marks]

Hello again Bob, we do seem to be in a loop now, but what the hey, we've gotta have some fun, right?

The "goal" of God giving us His breathed word is so that we could get to know Him and have a relationship with Him.

As I said earlier, and as I'm sure you already know, general revelation is GREAT for telling us that there is a wondrous/awesome Creator out there, but that's about all that we can really glean about God from looking at things like the stars. The rest, at best, would be conjecture.

If we want to know more, you know, things like "how high and wide and deep the love/ affection/ tenderness of God is for us and to not loose heart for he has promised to be with us till the end of the age", then we have to know Him, and this we CANNOT do w/o the special revelation that we find His personal letter to us called the Bible.

--Papa Smurf

I wouldn't discount God's ability to reveal Himself to someone who lacks a Bible, and to even teach them in all truth, should that be God's intent.

Just the same, having such an amazing revelation from Him in a book, why oh why would we ever neglect it???

Much love!

 

[Berserk]

Paul does not consider his epistles "Scripture." Thus, on the subject of virgins he merely offers his non-binding "opinion," not the Lord's commandment (1 Cor. 7:25). Our Gospels never claim divine inspiration and nowhere does the NT claim they are divinely inspired.
)

 

[Papa Smurf]

I wouldn't discount God's ability to reveal Himself to someone who lacks a Bible, and to even teach them in all truth, should that be God's intent.

Hi Marks, I agree, and I would never discount God's ability to do anything, well, except for those things which we know that He cannot do, like lying. That said, while He could have chosen to speak with each of us individually/personally, that's not what He did (in fact, we know that outside of Israel, most of the world continued to live in darkness until the Lord Jesus finally appeared on the scene .. e.g. Matthew 4:16).

Also, the inscripturated, God-breathed word wasn't readily available to the people of Israel until Joshua wrote the Torah out for them on several large, lime-coated stones .. Deuteronomy 27/Joshua 8. Before that God's special revelation about Himself came to us through a few individuals, like Noah, Abraham, Moses and the prophets.

I know of missionaries who have led entire communities to Christ, but they've always done so via the word of God (which they oft times had to translate in the tribe's native tongue ... check out this autobiography if you want to be BLOWN AWAY, Bruchko). Do you know of individuals and/or of communities of people, not mentioned in the Bible (now or in the past), who the Lord has done that with, chosen to reveal Himself to and then lead into all truth ~APART~ from the Bible?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[marks]

Hi Marks, I agree, and I would never discount God's ability to do anything, well, except for those things which we know that He cannot do, like lying. That said, while He could have chosen to speak with each of us individually/personally, that's not what He did (in fact, we know that outside of Israel, most of the world continued to live in darkness until the Lord Jesus finally appeared on the scene .. e.g. Matthew 4:16).

Also, the inscripturated, God-breathed word wasn't readily available to the people of Israel until Joshua wrote the Torah out for them on several large, lime-coated stones .. Deuteronomy 27/Joshua 8. Before that God's special revelation about Himself came to us through a few individuals, like Noah, Abraham, Moses and the prophets.

I know of missionaries who have led entire communities to Christ, but they've always done so via the word of God (which they oft times had to translate in the tribe's native tongue ... check out this autobiography if you want to be BLOWN AWAY, Bruchko). Do you know of individuals and/or of communities of people, not mentioned in the Bible (now or in the past), who the Lord has done that with, chosen to reveal Himself to and then lead into all truth ~APART~ from the Bible?

Thanks

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

I've heard stories over the years of unbelievers having visions or dreams of Christ and coming to faith, but to be clear, I think that is the exception. And for us who have a Bible, it's academic. We should read our Bibles.

Abimalek would be an example of an heathen whom God communicated directly with.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Paul does not consider his epistles "Scripture."

Apparently Peter did, however.

Much love!

 

[Bob Estey]

Hello again Bob, we do seem to be in a loop now, but what the hey, we've gotta have some fun, right?

The "goal" of God giving us His breathed word is so that we could get to know Him and have a relationship with Him.

As I said earlier, and as I'm sure you already know, general revelation is GREAT for telling us that there is a wondrous/awesome Creator out there, but that's about all that we can really glean about God from looking at things like the stars. The rest, at best, would be conjecture.

If we want to know more, you know, things like "how high and wide and deep the love/ affection/ tenderness of God is for us and to not loose heart for he has promised to be with us till the end of the age", then we have to know Him, and this we CANNOT do w/o the special revelation that we find from Him in His personal letter to us called the Bible

--Papa Smurf

I would cut it down to: The goal of God is establishing a relationship with us (or words to that effect).

The Bible is a means, not an end.

 

[TonyChanYT]

Paul does not consider his epistles "Scripture." Thus, on the subject of virgins he merely offers his non-binding "opinion," not the Lord's commandment (1 Cor. 7:25). Our Gospels never claim divine inspiration and nowhere does the NT claim they are divinely inspired.
)

Did you read the OP?

 

[Papa Smurf]

Paul does not consider his epistles "Scripture." Thus, on the subject of virgins he merely offers his non-binding "opinion," not the Lord's commandment (1 Cor. 7:25). Our Gospels never claim divine inspiration and nowhere does the NT claim they are divinely inspired.)

Hello Berserk, by the time the Apostle penned 2 Timothy (his last Epistle), much of the NT had already been written. So, while there is no question that 2 Timothy 3:16 is referring to the whole of the OT Scriptures, we believe that it is also referring to the NT Scriptures as well, those that had already been written by the time 2 Timothy was completed, and those that were soon to come.

Since @marks has already mentioned Peter, I will share some of what he had to say about the Scriptures here, including his inclusion of Paul's letters ~AS~ Holy Scripture.

2 Peter 1​

20 Know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, ​

21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men, moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God. ​

​

2 Peter 3​

15 Regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, ​

16 as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the ~rest~ of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.​

From passages like these we know that the Apostles, and the other human authors of the NT, knew (as they wrote) that what they were writing was Holy Scripture (which we also know because at least 22 of the 27 Gospels/Epistles were already in regular use by our churches throughout the world, and were already being quoted in the writings of the ECF, by the first part of the 2nd Century.

God bless you!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - and as per Tony's OP,

1 Thessalonians 2​

13 We also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe. ​

 

[Papa Smurf]

The goal of God is establishing a relationship with us.

Which, again, He does via the Holy Writ.

Romans 10​

17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

The Bible is a means, not an end.

I don't recall anyone saying that it was anything else, but it is THE (principal) means that God uses, not simply "a" means or one among many.

--Papa Smurf

 

[Bob Estey]

Which, again, He does via the Holy Writ.

Romans 10​

17 Faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.​

I don't recall anyone saying that it was anything else, but it is THE (principal) means that God uses, not simply "a" means or one among many.

--Papa Smurf

Actually, I think God gets to know us through his Spirit. Prayer would be the method we can use to get to know him.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Actually, I think God gets to know us through his Spirit. Prayer would be the method we can use to get to know him.

"Prayer", says you! I think that I (finally) feel a change in the wind, says I

So, we come to it at last! The means of getting to know God w/o using the Bible is, "prayer"

OK, GREAT!! Wait a minute, prayers to whom, exactly

You know (although it would be nice and all), we really don't need to know His Name, do we, or anything else about Him Instead, we could just refer to Him, sing our hymns to Him, etc., as the "Unknown God", like they used to do on Mars Hill. For example, we could use the music to the "Jesus Loves Me, This I Know" children's hymn, but do so with a slight adjustment to the lyrics, like this,

"The unknown God loves me, this I know, for the words that I prayed at Him, tell me so" ​

You know, it still rhymes and is actually kinda catchy, IMHO, so let's go with it

--Papa Smurf

 

[Berserk]

Hello Berserk, by the time the Apostle penned 2 Timothy (his last Epistle), much of the NT had already been written. So, while there is no question that 2 Timothy 3:16 is referring to the whole of the OT Scriptures, we believe that it is also referring to the NT Scriptures as well, those that had already been written by the time 2 Timothy was completed, and those that were soon to come.

Nope. Peter and Paul were executed by order of Nero around 64 AD. Our first Gospel, Mark, was written around 67-70 AD and Matthew and Luke later use Mark as one of their sources. That is one of the first facts you learn at any evangelical seminary

 

[Papa Smurf]

Nope. Peter and Paul were executed by order of Nero around 64 AD. Our first Gospel, Mark, was written around 67-70 AD and Matthew and Luke later use Mark as one of their sources. That is one of the first facts you learn at any evangelical seminary

Hello again Berserk, I believe that you'll run into a bit of disagreement over that. As a quick for instance, check out the timeline below, which puts the writing of James between 40-45 AD, and the Gospels of both Mark and Matthew (as well 1 Corinthians) between 53-55 AD.

It also tells us that 2 Timothy was written, and that Paul and Peter were both martyred in Rome, between 64-67 AD, so there is some agreement there

~New Testament Timeline | ESV.org​

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - from the Master's Seminary and GTY.org, there is this NT timeline too. I'll see what else I can come up with, as they all seem to have both similarities and differences (many slight, some, not so much though).

New Testament​

​

James--A.D. 44-49​

Galatians--A.D. 49-50​

Matthew--A.D. 50-60​

Mark--A.D. 50-60​

1 Thessalonians--A.D. 51​

2 Thessalonians--A.D. 51-52​

1 Corinthians--A.D. 55​

2 Corinthians--A.D. 55-56​

Romans-- A.D. 56​

Luke--A.D. 60-61​

Ephesians--A.D. 60-62​

Philippians--A.D. 60-62​

Philemon--A.D. 60-62​

Colossians--A.D. 60-62​

Acts--A.D. 62​

1 Timothy--A.D. 62-64​

Titus--A.D. 62-64​

1 Peter--A.D. 64-65​

2 Timothy--A.D. 66-67​

2 Peter--A.D. 67-68​

Hebrews--A.D. 67-69​

Jude--A.D. 68-70​

John--A.D. 80-90​

1 John--A.D. 90-95​

2 John--A.D. 90-95​

3 John--A.D. 90-95​

Revelation--A.D. 94-96​