Alternate Reality- a different point of view

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Mr E

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Who else was made ruler and "Lord of all the earth" like that?

King Nebuchadnezzar yes, King Cyrus, King of Babylon, King of Assyria, Pharaoh--- and so on. Kings of earthly kingdoms among others.

Noah too became a Lord and ruler didn't he? And Moses after him as well as Adam before him.

So there is a God of gods, 'in heaven' and on earth- Earthly Lords- rulers and kings who often set themselves up as gods or in place of God, or as representative of God as some sort of mediator between God and men.... and people-- men- are left to discern and decide who and how to follow.

And that is often problematic. Actually, it's always problematic.

It only gets deeper from here....

 
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Mr E

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You see-- many have fallen asleep while waiting for his return and many, many more will completely miss him because his coming will not be what they expect. They're looking for the wrong Alice.

His sheep recognize his voice-- they'd know him anywhere....

 
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Mr E

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Where did Adam fall from? -for fall he did.

The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden.

Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


Before breaking the commandment, there was no threat of death. Adam walked with God- blameless. The son of God--perfect. Without sin.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.


Then... came the disobedience when Adam listened not to his Father, but the voice of his wife who had been influenced by the serpent. And then came the fall. And he who was naked before God was now ashamed and had to be covered with flesh.

Flesh (our human condition) is the result of the fall from paradise. Sin is/means to fall from the Presence and become flesh and there hasn't been a human born apart from this condition ever since that first legend of the fall.
 

APAK

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Hello from the other side….

When viewed from different perspectives, a Diamond reflects many hues— a spectrum only seen by examining individual facets.

-- This is a contrarian view of everything. Well, almost everything that folks may already have their hearts set upon. If you are one of those folks who- once they have their heart set upon something, they can't ever let go of it, then this thread probably isn't for you. To get much of anything out of it, you'll have to set aside some of your previously held beliefs at least momentarily to consider this alternative perspective. If you can't do that, or simply won't agree to do that, then please-- do us both a favor and pass on by this one. Or stay and listen if you like... You might find it at least interesting, or mildly amusing-- if so, stay awhile.... lean in. --But if it just upsets you... riles you up? Please take your case up somewhere else. I'm open to questions or comments, but if you want to argue a point, please start a separate thread in which to do so and that side discussion can take place there, where you can present your ideas or your displeasure with mine. Clear enough?

So what exactly is this thread about? It's a contrarian perspective to be sure-- you won't find these ideas somewhere else on the forum and I've never encountered similar thoughts at a church, or from any teacher, or anywhere on the Internet. It's just what is given to me to share with whosoever will lend me an ear. One can never have too many ears. Every doorpost can use one in the service of the Great King. So Friends... Romans... Countrymen.....

I'll likely spin out a separate thread for one specific topic that might otherwise be contained within this overarching theme, -and that would be devoted specifically to "what it all means." "What it's all for... or about." We'll get to it when we get to it, but it will be dedicated to a contrarian view of the gospel.... the good news at the end of the rainbow. But that will come later.

First we have to start closer to the start and also deal with this whole Moses issue that hangs like a cloud around a tent. -And it's this history of histories that Moses gave us that we will start with. This thread is built around one single premise. You either believe it, or you don't. You either accept it.... or you don't. There is no middle ground. If you believe it and can accept it- wonderful. Let's go forward from there. If you don't.... if you can't.... if you won't.... then there is no basis (notice I didn't say axiom) for understanding from which to begin and this conversation will be futile, so again.... please continue on your way and take your reasons for not accepting the premise elsewhere.

The premise:

No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.

So that is right where we're going to start. Understanding that. --To be fair, it's more about what precedes that statement in John, but you have to understand this truth before you can begin to consider what precedes it-- which is:

For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ.

We'll get to that.

This, more than anything else is the telling of a story. The never-ending story. If you will consider it, it's the story of man... and his fall, -and all that has become of us and where we are now and what happens next. Revisiting that premise above, if no one (no man) has seen God at any time, what can be said of Moses? Where did he get his ideas and instruction?

Do you like stories? This is a story. Pay close attention to the introduction…. Catch a new angle on the fall of man.

I have read all your posts in this thread and I commend you for revealing truth that many, including myself miss, written in the details by implication and deduction.

Thank you Mr. E, it's refleshing ..meant refreshing, and goes behind the scenes, of biblical truth that is truly an alternative reality that we are used to...
 

Mr E

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I have read all your posts in this thread and I commend you for revealing truth that many, including myself miss, written in the details by implication and deduction.

Thank you Mr. E, it's refleshing ..meant refreshing, and goes behind the scenes, of biblical truth that is truly an alternative reality that we are used to...

Opportunity knocks. Truth rings.

Test everything.


 

Mr E

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1678818623679.png

The end is near.

All that concerns 'the law of Moses.' What of the prophets? The prophets come along and consistently confront the rulers and teachers and keepers of the law and correct their error. Over and over and over. That is their role and they are consistently rejected by those same experts in the law. Some are mocked, some are beaten, some are killed. Because the lovers and defenders of the law hate to be called out. If you engage them, you enrage them.

But the word of the LORD comes to each of them as it did to Moses. -They do as they are told, even when it doesn't make sense (walk around naked for three years, lay on one side for a year, eat no choice foods, wear sackcloth, eat locusts and honey, drink no wine, cook your food on burning manure).

Jeremiah even got frustrated by it all- but though he was burdened by it he did what was asked of him and says in fact that he simply could NOT keep it in even if he wanted to...

O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived;
You have overcome me and prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all day long;

Everyone mocks me.
For each time I speak, I cry aloud;
I proclaim violence and destruction,
Because for me the word of the LORD has resulted
In reproach and derision all day long.

But if I say, “I will not remember Him
Or speak anymore in His name,”
Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire
Shut up in my bones;
And I am weary of holding it in,
And I cannot endure it.



When the word comes to you, you turn and look -as Moses did. You hearken as Samuel did. You respond as Isaiah and Ezekiel did. And then you are tested. Add nothing to it. Leave none of it out. Don't make a copy. --stuff like that.

Moses failed. There is no way around it.

The LORD of hosts -- consider that. Does God dwell in magnificent temples like Solomon or Herod built? Are you waiting for a new temple even now, to be constructed so that God will set a man once again upon His throne as in the days of Moses? God doesn't dwell in temples of stone, nor does He need a tent of canvas or animal skins for a meeting place. Jesus informs us that WE are the hosts. The God dwells in human tents.

Do you think that only Jesus was tempted by Satan? We are told that Jesus was tempted in every way common to man. All men are tempted. The father of lies, the Deceiver tricks and blinds and manipulates and mocks and tempts all men. Moses fell for it and the result was forty years of aimless wandering, a big book of the law that enslaved us to the transgression of it, and resulted in death, requiring the redemption and ransom of our souls.

Look at that priesthood that taught and administered and upheld the law.

Jesus said-- wrong father.
 
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APAK

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View attachment 30415

The end is near.

All that concerns 'the law of Moses.' What of the prophets? The prophets come along and consistently confront the rulers and teachers and keepers of the law and correct their error. Over and over and over. That is their role and they are consistently rejected by those same experts in the law. Some are mocked, some are beaten, some are killed. Because the lovers and defenders of the law hate to be called out. If you engage them, you enrage them.

But the word of the LORD comes to each of them as it did to Moses. -They do as they are told, even when it doesn't make sense (walk around naked for three years, lay on one side for a year, eat no choice foods, wear sackcloth, eat locusts and honey, drink no wine, cook your food on burning manure).

Jeremiah even got frustrated by it all- but though he was burdened by it he did what was asked of him and says in fact that he simply could NOT keep it in even if he wanted to...

O LORD, You have deceived me and I was deceived;
You have overcome me and prevailed.
I have become a laughingstock all day long;

Everyone mocks me.
For each time I speak, I cry aloud;
I proclaim violence and destruction,
Because for me the word of the LORD has resulted
In reproach and derision all day long.

But if I say, “I will not remember Him
Or speak anymore in His name,”
Then in my heart it becomes like a burning fire
Shut up in my bones;
And I am weary of holding it in,
And I cannot endure it.



When the word comes to you, you turn and look -as Moses did. You hearken as Samuel did. You respond as Isaiah and Ezekiel did. And then you are tested. Add nothing to it. Leave none of it out. Don't make a copy. --stuff like that.

Moses failed. There is no way around it.

The LORD of hosts -- consider that. Does God dwell in magnificent temples like Solomon or Herod built? Are you waiting for a new temple even now, to be constructed so that God will set a man once again upon His throne as in the days of Moses? God doesn't dwell in temples of stone, nor does He need a tent of canvas or animal skins for a meeting place. Jesus informs us that WE are the hosts. The God dwells in human tents.

Do you think that only Jesus was tempted by Satan? We are told that Jesus was tempted in every way common to man. All men are tempted. The father of lies, the Deceiver tricks and blinds and manipulates and mocks and tempts all men. Moses fell for it and the result was forty years of aimless wandering, a big book of the law that enslaved us to the transgression of it, and resulted in death, requiring the redemption and ransom of our souls.

Look at that priesthood that taught and administered and upheld the law.

Jesus said-- wrong father.
Lev 22:32-33 and Deut 32:51...Moses failed indeed.....and wrong father indeed
 
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Waiting on him

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Is it then, a contradiction? We read elsewhere in scripture that Moses met 'face to face' with God in the tent, on the mountain.... How can both be true? How did they meet face to face and yet 'no man can see God and live' and 'no man has ever seen God?'
Well a tent is merely a tabernacle. In the first century we see God places a tabernacle within them… which is a bridegroom coming out to run a race, and the heavens declared the Glory of God, as it was spoken in the Psalms.
 

Waiting on him

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If we can grasp this profound statement
John 1:17 KJV
[17] For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Then we must also accept this as true.

John 1:4-5 KJV
[4] In him was life; and the life was the light of men. [5] And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

Now Jesus being this light/truth implies; there was no light nor truth prior to his entering the world in the first century.
I believe him to be the first man born of the Father as scripture states. The first to have received the breath of life.

Prior to Jesus there could not possibly have been any comprehension of who the true God is.
 

Waiting on him

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Where did Adam fall from? -for fall he did.

The LORD God planted a garden toward the east, in Eden.

Then the LORD God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to cultivate it and keep it. The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.”


Before breaking the commandment, there was no threat of death. Adam walked with God- blameless. The son of God--perfect. Without sin.

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever.

So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.


Then... came the disobedience when Adam listened not to his Father, but the voice of his wife who had been influenced by the serpent. And then came the fall. And he who was naked before God was now ashamed and had to be covered with flesh.

Flesh (our human condition) is the result of the fall from paradise. Sin is/means to fall from the Presence and become flesh and there hasn't been a human born apart from this condition ever since that first legend of the fall.
Well, it’s ok, because he nailed all of that to his cross and took it all out of the way triumphant over principalities and all the high minded individuals including all of those contrary laws. And his flesh veil was rent giving all that would come access to the Father, being the Father was in him.
 

Waiting on him

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All that concerns 'the law of Moses.' What of the prophets? The prophets come along and consistently confront the rulers and teachers and keepers of the law and correct their error. Over and over and over. That is their role and they are consistently rejected by those same experts in the law. Some are mocked, some are beaten, some are killed. Because the lovers and defenders of the law hate to be called out. If you engage them, you enrage them.
A wonderful example of this is Stephen in acts seven when he tells them that that according to the prophet God would never had told Solomon to build that temple.

Acts 7:47-50 KJV
[47] But Solomon built him an house. [48] Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? [50] Hath not my hand made all these things?
What David and His boy fails to understand was, the Christ was the tabernacle He required, not to their discredit,,,, they had no truth/light.
 
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APAK

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Well a tent is merely a tabernacle. In the first century we see God places a tabernacle within them… which is a bridegroom coming out to run a race, and the heavens declared the Glory of God, as it was spoken in the Psalms.
Well I believe neither of the explanations, of yourself and @Mr E ......

There are many idioms used in scripture. This 'face to face' encounter with God and Moses simply means an intimate close as with a close friend conversation and exchange of words. And the tent was a literal tent in this case, and God could and most probably represented himself as a pillow of low hanging clounds atop the mountain.

just saying....
 
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Mr E

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Well I believe neither of the explanations, of yourself and @Mr E ......

There are many idioms used in scripture. This 'face to face' encounter with God and Moses simply means an intimate close as with a close friend conversation and exchange of words. And the tent was a literal tent in this case, and God could and most probably represented himself as a pillow of low hanging clounds atop the mountain.

just saying....

You don't agree that you are the tabernacle? You are the tent? You are the temple?

Then it isn't only me and @Waiting on him that you are disagreeing with- what do you think Paul was talking about?
 

Mr E

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A wonderful example of this is Stephen in acts seven when he tells them that that according to the prophet God would never had told Solomon to build that temple.

Acts 7:47-50 KJV
[47] But Solomon built him an house. [48] Howbeit the most High dwelleth not in temples made with hands; as saith the prophet, [49] Heaven is my throne, and earth is my footstool: what house will ye build me? saith the Lord: or what is the place of my rest? [50] Hath not my hand made all these things?
What David and His boy fails to understand was, the Christ was the tabernacle He required, not to their discredit,,,, they had no truth/light.

It's a very important testimony that Stephen gives, and most people read it with little or no thought-

Stephen makes the point about Moses and those forty years-- how many Christians completely miss it?

‘It was not to me that you offered slain animals and sacrifices forty years in the wilderness, was it, house of Israel? But you took along the tabernacle of Moloch and the star of the god Rephan, the images you made to worship, but I will deport you beyond Babylon.’
 

APAK

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You don't agree that you are the tabernacle? You are the tent? You are the temple?

Then it isn't only me and @Waiting on him that you are disagreeing with- what do you think Paul was talking about?
Waait a minute...woe...Mr E...:running:

In this situation of Moses on the Mount with God, it is a real tent and makes much more sense. I guess you could stretch the use of this tent as symbolic of a the physical tent tabernacle although not Moses' body himself. And yes, I do believe the tent we are in is a type of tabernacle of God, as Paul wrote, as he God does dwells there. However, one size doe not fit all situations, or foe all tents in all cases, else we would have a real clash and a mess.

And so I have always agree I'm a type of tabernacle/temple, a resting place and of a worship place with my God.
 
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Mr E

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Waait a minute...woe...Mr E...:running:

In this situation of Moses on the Mount with God, it is a real tent and makes much more sense. I guess you could stretch the use of this tent as symbolic of a the physical tent tabernacle although not Moses' body himself. And yes, I do believe the tent we are in is a type of tabernacle of God, as Paul wrote, as he God does dwells there. However, one size doe not fit all situations, or foe all tents in all cases, else we would have a real clash and a mess.

And so I have always agree I'm a type of tabernacle/temple, a resting place and of a worship place with my God.

Moses saw a tent of meeting in spirit --the only place we meet with God, who is spirit.

His error was in making a physical copy of everything he saw in spirit. This error led to 40 years (and many more) of animal sacrifice, because he didn't understand what he was seeing in spirit was not to be taken literally. People make the same error even today.

Jesus was not a lamb. That was seen in spirit. It conveys a conceptual meaning-- of innocence, of gentleness, of purpose, of self-sacrifice--- but the slaying of a lamb seen in spirit has NOTHING to do with slaying actual lambs. Stephen recognized this in his testimony, but he was actually quoting the prophet (Famous Amos), who recognized the same problem with the whole temple/sacrifice system. Rotten to the core.