America Was Not Founded Upon Godly Principles.

[preciousmessage]

(BernieEOD;27454)
If one truly does not believe in shooting anybody, one should not join the Marines. Even if the recruiter promises you that you won't have to go to war (Due to the M.O.S you are signing up for?). If one wishes to serve without having to use a gun, you can join the other two non combatant service forces, the Navy and Air Force. There is littler if any weapons training in Boot Camp and unless you go into one of it's expeditionary units, you will never touch another weapon for the rest of your career. Youcan fight a war chipping paint, waxing decks, polishing brass, and working in your specialty which is some technical or administrative job.
Hi Bernie,I am talking of God's word regarding war. Anyone in the military support the military by joining as such. When young I was in the Navy for four years. I would not "wish" it upon anyone. It's a dealing with very hostile, egocentric, warlike spirit attitude, a very mean and hateful spirit is what I encountered. Quote:"The most hopeless feature is that professing Christians are joining with the children of darkness in their view of the efficacy and necessity of war, and are sometimes even found leading the outcry for the slaughter of their offending fellow-men. Let no one be deceived on this point, but let all who would gladly see an improvement, ceased trying to make the symptoms disappear and begin to treat the disease itself. Satan is the enemy and the proper object of attack, and he must be met in his own entrenchments. “From whence come wars and fightings among you? come they not hands, even of your lusts that war in your members?” James iv. 1. What prospect is there of success in an attempt to reduce his fortifications and dislodge the enemy? “The weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but might be through God to the pulling down of strongholds; casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God.” 2 Cor. x. 3, 5.“Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day.” Eph. vi. 11-18. End QuoteJake

 

[BernieEOD]

I was in for 26 years. 13 in submarines, another 13 in the reserves as an EOD Diver.Warlike metality is ahrdly what I experienced. More like endlessly spit shinning and passing other petty inspections. One CO I served under actually said that going to war was a violation of reactor safety rules.Take the latest Church shooting in Colorado. Do you rebuke that security guard? I guess he should have been allowed to "Peacfully go on kiling". Like I said, I had a guy who threatened to rape and kill my family. When I warned him that he would be in more danger then my family he responded "You call yourself a Christian? Jesus says you can't stop me!" He then brought his case to one like you who rebuked me and commanded I appologise to him. My only response is that if he wished to rape and kill in the name of Jesus, I would gladly send him on his way to present his case to him. I doubt he would get a sympethetic ear. "Lord! I tried to rape and kill this mans family and he shot me!"?

 

[Dunamite]

(tim_from_pa;23944)
So.... where would you rather live then if these rights are not important to you? You rather be a Christian in China or India for example where they have to worship under cover? I get a little agitated when someone shoots off like this and they don't know what a God-given blessing they have until it is taken away. I'd repent if I were you.Anyone else here hate America?
What makes you automatically think that someone hates America because of something they post about rights or a lack of them enshrined in law?America is hated by some who criticize her, but not by all. Criticizing a country or its leadership is sign of a healthy country, not a weak one. In fact it is a democratic responsibility to question leadership and to hold them accountable.As for China, the church there is stronger than in America. In times of persecution the church has always grown. Soon the average Christian will be Chinese speaking and we should all look forward to it and rejoice when that day comes. It means that the gospel cannot be stopped by political measures.We should all pray for America, whether we agree with the nation or not. We should pray for President Bush whether we like him or not. America has a big responsibility in the world and is challenged daily to live up to the expectations of her citizens and the rest of the world.This does not stop me from criticizing where I feel it is needed. You should welcome criticism. Ever heard of tough love? When we ignore America then you should be worried. Sometimes your closest friends and family can be your toughest critics, but they do it because they love you and want you to be the best you can. When you make a mistake they feel it as deeply as you do. But when you do something good they celebrate with you!Blessings,Dunamite

 

[preciousmessage]

(BernieEOD;27476)
I was in for 26 years. 13 in submarines, another 13 in the reserves as an EOD Diver.Warlike metality is ahrdly what I experienced. More like endlessly spit shinning and passing other petty inspections. One CO I served under actually said that going to war was a violation of reactor safety rules.Take the latest Church shooting in Colorado. Do you rebuke that security guard? I guess he should have been allowed to "Peacfully go on kiling". Like I said, I had a guy who threatened to rape and kill my family. When I warned him that he would be in more danger then my family he responded "You call yourself a Christian? Jesus says you can't stop me!" He then brought his case to one like you who rebuked me and commanded I appologise to him. My only response is that if he wished to rape and kill in the name of Jesus, I would gladly send him on his way to present his case to him. I doubt he would get a sympethetic ear. "Lord! I tried to rape and kill this mans family and he shot me!"?
Not into hypotheticals, strangely, just the Word ... Christ Jesus "laid" down his life rather than picking up the sword, He died, and we died IN HIM. I know, it goes contrary to human nature, but the millions of martyrs understood the principle of dying with Christ rather than defending "self" and other "selves." Galatians 2:20.Blessed are the peacemakers for they shall be called children of God. Matt. 5:9. Quote:“From the statement in Rom. 13:10, that “love worketh no ill to his neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law,” it will be seen that Christian love does not possibly admit of wars and fightings. Its possession makes it impossible for one to say, as is frequently said in these days, “I have been an advocate of peace and arbitration for twenty-five years, but”—and then go on to say that under such provocation as now exists war is welcomed. “Love worketh no ill to his neighbor;” and no philosophy can ever make it appear that it does a man any good to kill him. When the soldiers asked John the Baptist what they should do, as followers of the Lamb of God, to whom he pointed, he replied, “Do violence to no man.” Luke 3:14. Those who asked were “soldiers on service,” as we see from the margin of the Revised Version. And the margin also gives as the alternative rendering of John’s answer, “Put no man in fear.” It would be a very mild war in which this command was followed. Love never does any harm to anybody; but love is active, since it is the life of God; therefore love is always doing good. Jesus Christ, the Prince of Peace, “went about doing good.” End Quote .... This cannot be more clear fellow brother. blessings to you in Christ,Jake

 

[BernieEOD]

Not into hypotheticals, strangely, just the Word ... Christ Jesus "laid" down his life rather than picking up the sword, He died, and we died IN HIM. I know, it goes contrary to human nature, but the millions of martyrs understood the principle of dying with Christ rather than defending "self" and other "selves(Quote)Not hypothetical..Fact. A man shot up one church where everyone turned the other cheek and died. When he tried it on a second Church, a mamber acting as a security guard shot and killed him.Fact, not hypothetical. We were on patrol with M-4's ready to shoot any swimmer who tried to sneak into the harbor and blow something up. Fact, Not hypotetical. A man DID threaten to rape and kill my family and attempted to use the name of Christ to allow him to do it.No hypotheticals here, actual events which happened.

 

[preciousmessage]

(BernieEOD;27485)
Not into hypotheticals, strangely, just the Word ... Christ Jesus "laid" down his life rather than picking up the sword, He died, and we died IN HIM. I know, it goes contrary to human nature, but the millions of martyrs understood the principle of dying with Christ rather than defending "self" and other "selves(Quote)Not hypothetical..Fact. A man shot up one church where everyone turned the other cheek and died. When he tried it on a second Church, a mamber acting as a security guard shot and killed him.Fact, not hypothetical. We were on patrol with M-4's ready to shoot any swimmer who tried to sneak into the harbor and blow something up. Fact, Not hypotetical. A man DID threaten to rape and kill my family and attempted to use the name of Christ to allow him to do it.No hypotheticals here, actual events which happened.
I can sympathize with you dear brother, for I have been held at gunpoint and at knife point. I simply surrendered to God, and said, "So be it Lord, what is your will?" Hypothetical = "an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument."You're assuming dear brother that your own facts of argument have any validity over God's word. (For the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, but might through God .... casting down [human reasoning] imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Cor. 10: 4, 5. I speak softly, .... and the word of God comes into your situation where? A fact, "faith comes by hearing God's word." Christ laid down his life rather than picking up a sword. Do we have faith, or do we say vengeance is mine sayeth me? Please give me a revelation of God's word, not mine nor yours. If we stick closely to God's word we will not go astray. My opinion really means nothing, God's Word means everything. Please make your point according to God's word dear brother, that's all I am asking of you. blessings in Christ to you,Jake

 

[BernieEOD]

(preciousmessage;27490)
I can sympathize with you dear brother, for I have been held at gunpoint and at knife point. I simply surrendered to God, and said, "So be it Lord, what is your will?" Hypothetical = "an assumption or concession made for the sake of argument."You're assuming dear brother that your own facts of argument have any validity over God's word. (For the weapons of our warfare are NOT carnal, but might through God .... casting down [human reasoning] imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ." 2 Cor. 10: 4, 5. I speak softly, .... and the word of God comes into your situation where? A fact, "faith comes by hearing God's word." Christ laid down his life rather than picking up a sword. Do we have faith, or do we say vengeance is mine sayeth me? Please give me a revelation of God's word, not mine nor yours. If we stick closely to God's word we will not go astray. My opinion really means nothing, God's Word means everything. Please make your point according to God's word dear brother, that's all I am asking of you. blessings in Christ to you,Jake
So, your message is "Put down the gun and hand over your family to be raped? Sorry, but if you were there to say that, YOU wouod have been shot first. People who run interference for criminals and tell people to submit to rape, robbery, or murder are not people of God but chaplians for criminals.When that rapist confided in one like you to attampt to make me appologise to the rapist for not allowing him to rape, I had more disdain for him than the criminal. Unlike you, I will not rebuke the Church security guard for "Not putting it in Gods hand" Which meant allow the killer to go on killing.Somehting is wrong when people like you forgive the criminal and condem the innocent who fight back.

 

[BernieEOD]

In short, you claim I need to repent for what I did. To repent is not to simply be sorry but to undo what one did. In order to repent, I would have to re submit my family to be raped and murdered. To repent of my military service, I would have to blow up a cruise ship and machine gun the survivors in the water. A SAOldier who repents of his service in WW2 would have to figure out how many Jews are still alive because of him and go out and kill them. One of the ways to figure out if something is wrong is to see what repenting of it will do. If you steal, you put it back, If you murder, you turn yourself in offering your life as payment. So, if you use force to protect a life and repent of it, you would have to undo the saving of the life and kill that person you saved.Wrong theology.

 

[BernieEOD]

Lk 3:14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely x —be content with your pay.” You misquoted Luke to fit your pro criminal ministry. You caim the soldiers were told never to use force. Not true.Ro 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, p for there is no authority except that which God has established. q The authorities that exist have been established by God. Ro 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, r and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Ro 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. s Ro 13:4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. t It is the duty of government to put evil men in fear.

 

[BernieEOD]

Lk 3:14 Then some soldiers asked him, “And what should we do?” He replied, “Don’t extort money and don’t accuse people falsely x —be content with your pay.” You misquoted Luke to fit your pro criminal ministry. You caim the soldiers were told never to use force. Not true.Ro 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, p for there is no authority except that which God has established. q The authorities that exist have been established by God. Ro 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, r and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Ro 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. s Ro 13:4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. t It is the duty of government to put evil men in fear.

 

[BernieEOD]

You say you were in the Navy? What ship were you on? What was your rate? What division were you in? The Navy, in the words of Sci-Fi Author Robert H Hienlin is a "Non combatant service force". If you were only in for four years, unless you were a GM, FT. TM. ST, or OS, you were not practicing war. You were more than liley chipping paint, swabbing decks, washing dishes, or polishing brightwork. Your Battle station was more than lilkely in a repair party sitting in the mess decks or in a repair locker. So I find it difficult to see how this "War mentality" in the Navy tormented you.

 

[preciousmessage]

(BernieEOD;27532)
You say you were in the Navy? What ship were you on? What was your rate? What division were you in? The Navy, in the words of Sci-Fi Author Robert H Hienlin is a "Non combatant service force". If "you were only in for four years, unless you were a GM, FT. TM. ST, or OS, you were not practicing war. You were more than liley chipping paint, swabbing decks, washing dishes, or polishing brightwork. Your Battle station was more than lilkely in a repair party sitting in the mess decks or in a repair locker. So I find it difficult to see how this "War mentality" in the Navy tormented you."
USS King DDG-41 and the USS Hull 945. Virginia and San Diego. I was on a nuclear capable armed ship. I believe that would be more destructive than any machine gun. But I must confess, this pained me just to say such, thinking that hundreds of thousands could have been wiped away by one bomb. Also, I don't think that quoting a "fictional author" really has any godly value since God does not deal in fiction. Again, with all due respect, you have not given me God's word. Perhaps we can have an intelligent, "spiritual" conversion at some time regarding Christ Jesus and His word. Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, thinking that is what this "Christian Forum" is about. I find it ironic that I'm speaking of God's love and you're speaking of man's destructive weapons, an eye for an eye, if you will. You're speaking bloodshed and war and I'm speaking "peace on earth, good will toward men." I find this to be rather strange. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Would love to have that conversation. It's much more fruitful. I can either fight for Jesus or fight for the secular world. John 17. Does Jesus Christ ask us to fight? Yes. "Fight the good fight of faith." Quote from a preacher of yesteryears:In the Revelation, John points to the fierce spirit of war as one of the conditions which should exist at the time of the end. “The nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” Rev. 11:18. As it was in the days of Noah—when violence filled the earth—so the Lord said it would be in the last days.No one need expect anything other than violence in the earth so long as Satan is the god of this world. He it is that stirs up the fierce spirit of war, wherever it is. As the apostle saw almost the very end of the history of this world’s sin, he saw the spirits that are manifestly already at work—“the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them together to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Rev. 16:14. End Quote blessings to you in Christ,Jake

 

[Unorthodox Christian]

@Those that believe America Was founded on Christian Principles, would the NATIVE AMERICANs tell you the same thing?

 

[BernieEOD]

(preciousmessage;27536)
USS King DDG-41 and the USS Hull 945. Virginia and San Diego. I was on a nuclear capable armed ship. I believe that would be more destructive than any machine gun. But I must confess, this pained me just to say such, thinking that hundreds of thousands could have been wiped away by one bomb. Also, I don't think that quoting a "fictional author" really has any godly value since God does not deal in fiction. Again, with all due respect, you have not given me God's word. Perhaps we can have an intelligent, "spiritual" conversion at some time regarding Christ Jesus and His word. Perhaps I'm being presumptuous, thinking that is what this "Christian Forum" is about. I find it ironic that I'm speaking of God's love and you're speaking of man's destructive weapons, an eye for an eye, if you will. You're speaking bloodshed and war and I'm speaking "peace on earth, good will toward men." I find this to be rather strange. "Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. Would love to have that conversation. It's much more fruitful. I can either fight for Jesus or fight for the secular world. John 17. Does Jesus Christ ask us to fight? Yes. "Fight the good fight of faith." Quote from a preacher of yesteryears:In the Revelation, John points to the fierce spirit of war as one of the conditions which should exist at the time of the end. “The nations were angry, and Thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged.” Rev. 11:18. As it was in the days of Noah—when violence filled the earth—so the Lord said it would be in the last days.No one need expect anything other than violence in the earth so long as Satan is the god of this world. He it is that stirs up the fierce spirit of war, wherever it is. As the apostle saw almost the very end of the history of this world’s sin, he saw the spirits that are manifestly already at work—“the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them together to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.” Rev. 16:14. End Quote blessings to you in Christ,Jake
The nuclear weapons capability in both of those ships consisted of ASROC.ASROC was designed to destroy enemy submarines andwas not capable of being used on land due to the fact that the detonation sequence was based on depth. Any attaempt to use it on land would result in it simply not detonating. If you wish to discuss the destructive capability of nuclear weapons, the mission of your ship was to destroy Soviet submarines, some of which were capable of launching up to 16 missiles. So the choice you had on that ship would have been to refuse to make radioactive hole in the Ocean and in return allow up to 16 cities to be vaporized.Ro 13:1 Everyone must submit himself to the governing authorities, p for there is no authority except that which God has established. q The authorities that exist have been established by God. Ro 13:2 Consequently, he who rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, r and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. Ro 13:3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and he will commend you. s Ro 13:4 For he is God’s servant to do you good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword for nothing. He is God’s servant, an agent of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. t Ro 13:5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also because of conscience. u Ro 13:6 This is also why you pay taxes, v for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. Ro 13:7 Give everyone what you owe him: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; w if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honorFor four years, you were part of that power of the sword God gives to governments. Your job was not to actually wield the sword but to clean, polish, swab, and maintain only a small part of it.

 

[BernieEOD]

Back to the original question this forum stared with: Was America founded on Godly priniples? Lets look at some facts:- The first to colonise this land were religious denominations seeking freedom from the oppressive state sponsored churches of Europe. Some of these early colinies could be better described as cults than Churches. It would appear that God himself weeded out those who did not fit his plan by allowing the elements, famine, and hotstile natives to wipe them out.- The Salem witch hunt shows how imperfect even the best of these Churches were. Anyone who knows Scripture should know that even if these people really were witches, anyone who is in Christ has nothing to fear from witchcraft. The real tragedy was that most, if not all who were acused were simply people whom others had a personal grudge against them.- The Colonists treatment of the Natives was about as unBiblical as one could get.- The taxes King George levied on the Colonies was actually justified. The Colonists demanded the King send troops to protect them during the French & Indian War when in the very charter they signed with the King, they were supposed to defend themselves by forming Militias. It was for this very reason that unlike in England, Citizens were allowed to keep & Bear Arms. (The 2nd Amendment was merly a continuation of this policy, not a new one).- Having relented and sent the troops he really could not spare due to the fact that this war was also raging in Europe, the Royal treasury was depleted and since the King sent troops to the Colonies, it was only fair that they help shoulder the cost of the war.The taxes the King levied on the Colonies was pale compared to the taxes levied in Europe.- The Declaration of Independence was a direct violation of Romans 13. The tax revolts were a direct violation of Christs command to "Render unto Ceasar what is Ceasars"- Something happended at Valley Forge. The rebellion was considered to be over by many. We do know that Washington was on his knees in deep prayer at this time. Nobody knows what he prayed but I feel that his prayer was nothing what most people thought it was. Some claim he actually repented of his rebellion only to learn that God did have plans to turn the evil of the Colonists to do his good.- Washingtons farewell address gave severla dire warnings: "Do not think that one can have national morality apart from Religious priniples". His theme was very much the same as the warnings Moses gave in hid final speech.- John Adams, our 2nd President warned "The Constitution was written for a moral Religious people, it is inadaquate for the government of any other". He goes on to explain "Order and liberty can only exist together when people are inclined towards moral self restraint, the less control there is from within, the more is required from without."Washington warned "A despot will create the very disorder he promises to bring peace to" So, as Liberals talk of sexual freedom, civil rights, humane treatment of the worst criminals, they also talk of public disarmamnet, health care (Couple with the government having the power to regulate anything they declare a health hazard) and social indoctrination. Conclusion: God determines the times and boundries of all nations. He had plans for this nation but when our time is done, he will pull the plug on us. It is no accident that every empire since Rome was one which prefessed to be Christian. It is also no accident that when each of these empires fell from their prime, they were at the height of thier opostasy. One bright spot is that every Christian empire has been given a "Soft landing" as they fell from power. Rome was stripped down to just being Italy. Spain was striupped of its empire but allowed to remain as a nation as was Britian. Germany, the cradle of the Protestant reformation, even after dong what it did to the Jews, was punished severly but spared the fate of the Philistines. (Had FDR not died when he did, we would have instituted the Morgenthahl plan instead of the Marshal plan. This plan called for the Allies to continue the operation of the Nazi death camps only processing Germans insead of Jews) So once again, God granted a soft landing for a disobedient empire.

 

[BernieEOD]

I don't think that quoting a "fictional author" really has any godly value since God does not deal in fiction. (Quote)It simply describes what the Navy really is. I don't know when you served but is it safe to say you joined up to avoid the draft? You then served your time perfroming non comabtant service carrying a swab instead of a rifle. The only rifle you carried was a non funtioning M-1 or M-1903 and all you ever did with it was prade drill. When I joined in 1977, they didn't even have those and we never touched a firearm in all of basic training. Even when standing guard duty, we were not given any ammo for our pistols so "Non combatant service force" is an accurate statement.