Analysis of 1 Timothy 4:1 and how it disproves the OSAS doctrine

[Barrd]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The Holy Spirit speaks, and tells us that, in the latter times some shall depart from the faith.

But OSAS states that it is impossible for someone who has been saved to depart from their faith.

Why would the Holy Spirit tell us that there will be those who depart from their faith, if it were impossible for us to depart from our faith?
It seems that, either the Holy Spirit is mistaken...and we know that is impossible...or that OSAS is a false doctrine.
Which do you believe?

 

[ATP]

Some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Also notice it's mentioning two different people here, those who forbid people to etc...and those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:1-3 NIV The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

From the Strong's concordance, here is the definition of "faith" from 1 Timothy 4:1

G4102 (Strong)

πίστις

pistis

pis'-tis

From G3982; persuasion, that is, credence; moral conviction (of religious truth, or the truthfulness of God or a religious teacher), especially reliance upon Christ for salvation; abstractly constancy in such profession; by extension the system of religious (Gospel) truth itself: - assurance, belief, believe, faith, fidelity.

Total KJV occurrences: 244

I'm going to say that the Holy Spirit is definitely referring to saving faith.

 

[ATP]

That's the definition of faith anywhere, including Eph 2:8 NIV.

But to do a proper exegesis, look to the term aphistémi.

Notice the word aphistémi in 1 Tim 4:1 NIV, Luke 8:13 NIV Barrd. These people had no root.

 

[Jun2u]

Those who are trying to refute the term OSAS and the word of God does not understand and will never understand the meaning of salvation, because:

1 They do not know the word of God.

2 They do not know how to read the word of God

3 They do not know how God wrote the Bible

4 They do not know what they are saved from

5 They do not know what is involved in salvation

6 They have no idea at all what the cross signifies

7 They don't know that the word “eternal” means forever, as in the term “I give them eternal life”.

I can go on and on, but the above should suffice.

It's sad to say that these dear people come under the category of 2 Timothy 3:7.


2Ti 3:7

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

That's the definition of faith anywhere, including Eph 2:8 NIV.

But to do a proper exegesis, look to the term aphistémi.

Notice the word aphistémi in 1 Tim 4:1 NIV, Luke 8:13 NIV Barrd. These people had no root.

You seem to have the idea that every one who "falls away" has no root. But that is not what the parable of the sower teaches. You've taken one verse out of the context of the parable, and somehow, you seem to think that "proper exegesis" means interpreting the entire Bible on that one verse.
There is nothing in 1 Tim 4:1 that talks about these people "falling away because they had no root." The term aphistemi simply means that they left their faith. Period.
Stop trying to add to the Scripture.

 

[ATP]

Those who are trying to refute the term OSAS and the word of God does not understand and will never understand the meaning of salvation, because:

1 They do not know the word of God.

2 They do not know how to read the word of God

3 They do not know how God wrote the Bible

4 They do not know what they are saved from

5 They do not know what is involved in salvation

6 They have no idea at all what the cross signifies

7 They don't know that the word “eternal” means forever, as in the term “I give them eternal life”.

I can go on and on, but the above should suffice.

It's sad to say that these dear people come under the category of 2 Timothy 3:7.


2Ti 3:7

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To God Be The Glory

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."

You seem to have the idea that every one who "falls away" has no root. But that is not what the parable of the sower teaches. You've taken one verse out of the context of the parable, and somehow, you seem to think that "proper exegesis" means interpreting the entire Bible on that one verse.
There is nothing in 1 Tim 4:1 that talks about these people "falling away because they had no root." The term aphistemi simply means that they left their faith. Period.
Stop trying to add to the Scripture.

That is what the parable of the sower teaches. It even says in Luke 8:11 NIV, "this is the meaning of the parable". Barrd, they use the same word to describe falling away in 1 Tim 4:1 NIV. Also notice they were never saved in Luke 8:12 NIV...

Luke 8:11-15 NIV “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

In Luke 8:11 NIV it says "the seed" is the word of God. Remember what we learned about "the seed" and "the truth" in 1 Tim 4:3 NIV...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

 

[SimpleFaith]

Some shall depart from the faith, not saving faith.."departed" in 1 Tim 4:1-2 NIV is translated "aphistémi" which means to lead away, to depart from. Also notice in Luke 8:13 NIV the same word "aphistémi" is used for the term "fall away". Why did they fall away? Because they had no root of salvation...

Luke 8:13 NIV Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.

Also notice it's mentioning two different people here, those who forbid people to etc...and those who believe and who know the truth.

1 Tim 4:1-3 NIV The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

Eph 1:13-14 NIV And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, 14who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession—to the praise of his glory.

- ATP

I agree that these things would apply concerning the OSAS argument. It's important for every believer to be rooted and grounded in the love of God, it's important to keep God's word and thereby the love of God is perfected in that person.. being so established in faith so as to not be moved away from the hope of the gospel. To love the law of the LORD and not stumble or fall away. Every believer to daily walk in the light as He is in the light and not be stumbled by darkness. By loving God and loving the brethren, and by loving our neighbors as ourselves.

 

[ATP]

I agree that these things would apply concerning the OSAS argument. It's important for every believer to be rooted and grounded in the love of God, it's important to keep God's word and thereby the love of God is perfected in that person.. being so established in faith so as to not be moved away from the hope of the gospel. To love the law of the LORD and not stumble or fall away. Every believer to daily walk in the light as He is in the light and not be stumbled by darkness. By loving God and loving the brethren, and by loving our neighbors as ourselves.

Amen.

1 Tim 4:3 NIV They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

 

[Barrd]

Those who are trying to refute the term OSAS and the word of God does not understand and will never understand the meaning of salvation, because:

1 They do not know the word of God.

2 They do not know how to read the word of God

3 They do not know how God wrote the Bible

4 They do not know what they are saved from

5 They do not know what is involved in salvation

6 They have no idea at all what the cross signifies

7 They don't know that the word “eternal” means forever, as in the term “I give them eternal life”.

I can go on and on, but the above should suffice.

It's sad to say that these dear people come under the category of 2 Timothy 3:7.


2Ti 3:7

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

To God Be The Glory

I don't see anything in this post that has anything to do with the OP.
Why is that?

 

[Barrd]

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."


That is what the parable of the sower teaches. It even says in Luke 8:11 NIV, "this is the meaning of the parable". Barrd, they use the same word to describe falling away in 1 Tim 4:1 NIV. Also notice they were never saved in Luke 8:12 NIV...

Luke 8:11-15 NIV “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

In Luke 8:11 NIV it says "the seed" is the word of God. Remember what we learned about "the seed" and "the truth" in 1 Tim 4:3 NIV...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

None of these scriptures have anything to do with the one under examination. Stick to the topic of the thread.

 

[Barrd]

John 17:26 NIV I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them."


That is what the parable of the sower teaches. It even says in Luke 8:11 NIV, "this is the meaning of the parable". Barrd, they use the same word to describe falling away in 1 Tim 4:1 NIV. Also notice they were never saved in Luke 8:12 NIV...

Luke 8:11-15 NIV “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. 14The seed that fell among thorns stands for those who hear, but as they go on their way they are choked by life’s worries, riches and pleasures, and they do not mature. 15But the seed on good soil stands for those with a noble and good heart, who hear the word, retain it, and by persevering produce a crop.

In Luke 8:11 NIV it says "the seed" is the word of God. Remember what we learned about "the seed" and "the truth" in 1 Tim 4:3 NIV...

1 Pet 1:23 NIV For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

1 John 3:9 NIV No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

Stop trying to derail the thread. This thread is strictly about 1 Timothy 4:1

 

[Barrd]

Amen.

1 Tim 4:3 NIV They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

2 John 1:2 NIV because of the truth, which lives in us and will be with us forever:

- ATP

You need to respond to the topic of the thread, which is 1 Timothy 4:1.

 

[Barrd]

I agree that these things would apply concerning the OSAS argument. It's important for every believer to be rooted and grounded in the love of God, it's important to keep God's word and thereby the love of God is perfected in that person.. being so established in faith so as to not be moved away from the hope of the gospel. To love the law of the LORD and not stumble or fall away. Every believer to daily walk in the light as He is in the light and not be stumbled by darkness. By loving God and loving the brethren, and by loving our neighbors as ourselves.

It is important to understand that people can be moved away from the gospel, that they can stumble or fall away.

 

[ATP]

You need to respond to the topic of the thread, which is 1 Timothy 4:1.

You would have to expand on the verse Barrd. How else are you going to understand what it's about?

 

[Jun2u]

1Ti 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils

The Holy Spirit speaks, and tells us that, in the latter times some shall depart from the faith.

But OSAS states that it is impossible for someone who has been saved to depart from their faith.

Why would the Holy Spirit tell us that there will be those who depart from their faith, if it were impossible for us to depart from our faith?
It seems that, either the Holy Spirit is mistaken...and we know that is impossible...or that OSAS is a false doctrine

.

I beg to differ. Just because you didn't see anything in my post that related to the OP, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Who are the “some” that will depart from the faith in 1Timothy 4:1? Reading between the lines, you seem to assume that the “some” are believers. But that can't be since the believers receive eternal life at the moment of conversion and they are secure in God's hands.

Have you studied the parable of the Wheat and Tares?

I know you have not as it shows in your OP, considering you didn't know who it is that will depart from their faith.

To make the story short, the wheat (good seed) are the believers and the tares are the unbelievers. Spiritually, the setting of this parable is about the local congregations of the world.

The servants (angels) asked the sower (God) should they gather up the tares (unsaved)?

Matthew 13:29-30

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Verse 30 is the key verse in this parable. Note how God told the reapers to let both (saved and unsaved alike) to grow together that is, to worship together until the harvest (Judgment). The tares are bound and thrown into hell fire to burn and the wheat are gathered and live forevermore in God's heaven (barn).

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning.

We see in this parable that the “some” who will depart from their faith in 1Timothy 4:1 are none other than the unsaved scattered throughout the local churches of the world.

The doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” is well taught in the Bible.

I believe it is your understanding that is very faulty.

To God Be The Glory

 

[Barrd]

I beg to differ. Just because you didn't see anything in my post that related to the OP, it doesn't mean it's not there.

Who are the “some” that will depart from the faith in 1Timothy 4:1? Reading between the lines, you seem to assume that the “some” are believers. But that can't be since the believers receive eternal life at the moment of conversion and they are secure in God's hands.

Have you studied the parable of the Wheat and Tares?

I know you have not as it shows in your OP, considering you didn't know who it is that will depart from their faith.

To make the story short, the wheat (good seed) are the believers and the tares are the unbelievers. Spiritually, the setting of this parable is about the local congregations of the world.

The servants (angels) asked the sower (God) should they gather up the tares (unsaved)?

Matthew 13:29-30

29 But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
30 Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

Verse 30 is the key verse in this parable. Note how God told the reapers to let both (saved and unsaved alike) to grow together that is, to worship together until the harvest (Judgment). The tares are bound and thrown into hell fire to burn and the wheat are gathered and live forevermore in God's heaven (barn).

A parable is an earthly story with a heavenly/spiritual meaning.

We see in this parable that the “some” who will depart from their faith in 1Timothy 4:1 are none other than the unsaved scattered throughout the local churches of the world.

The doctrine of “Once Saved Always Saved” is well taught in the Bible.

I believe it is your understanding that is very faulty.

To God Be The Glory

In order to depart from the faith, these people would have had to have had faith to begin with.
I seriously doubt that the Holy Spirit would warn us that people who had no faith would depart from it. That doesn't even make sense.
Yes, there are tares...Satan isn't worried about them. It is true Christians he is out to destroy.

And no, OSAS is not taught in the Bible, it didn't even appear until John Calvin came along. Now, can you explain to me how it is, if this doctrine is true, nobody taught it before John Calvin?

 

[Barrd]

It's pretty obvious that most folks who have accepted this doctrine first heard it from behind some pulpit, more than likely in some Baptist-type church. I know for a fact that it is not taught in the Episcopal, Methodist, or Catholic Church. I don't think very many Pentecostals teach it.
It is not a Biblical teaching. There are too many verses that emphatically state otherwise, and trying to get around them with "they didn't have the root of salvation" or some such thing just doesn't work.
We need to be diligent, because we have an adversary who is raging like a lion, looking for gullible souls to devour...

No, the Holy Spirit would not warn us that false Christians would depart from the faith. That is an incredibly ridiculous idea on the face of it....

 

[ATP]

..about as ridiculous as Luke using "aphistémi" in Luke 8:13 I suppose.

How can they no longer possess agape love if they've never been separated from it? Rom 8:39 ESV,

and since the lake of fire is considered the second death Rev 20:14 NIV, and neither death nor life can separate the elect from God Rom 8:38 NIV, then wouldn't that make God a liar?

2 They do not know how to read the word of God

 

[Jun2u]

You pay too much homage to Satan. He is a defeated foe. As a true believer, he has nothing on me.

Jesus said: “Resist the devil and he will flee from you”. James 4:7

I'm not familiar with John Calvin's work, but if he and I and other Christians agree on a conclusion with certain doctrines, it is because we read and understand the same Bible.

Jesus said He knows His sheep, they listen and they follow only Him!

God wrote the Bible and rightly so, He is the only entity that can guide and give us meaning to scriptures that are difficult to understand. He has given us two principles whereby we might understand the deeper meaning of scriptures, and they circumscribed in 2Timothy 3:16 and 1Corinthians 2:14. Pay heed to these scriptures and you might learn something.

Why God opens the spiritual eyes of some and not others, I know not. Perhaps to foster unbelief?

Consider Mark 4:10-13:

10 And when he was alone, they that were about him with the twelve asked of him the parable.
11 And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables:
12 That seeing they may see, and not perceive; and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted, and their sins should be forgiven them.
13 And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

At this juncture, you still have not gotten the gist of the parable of the wheat and tares.
God already explained that the tares came from the devil and therefore unsaved, and that the wheat and the tares are to grow together.
Why then do you insist that the Holy Spirit will not warn the believers (wheat) that some (tares) will not depart from the faith?
Have you heard of the terms, "excomunicate", "no not to eat with such a person", and the like?

In your congregation, can you tell who are the wheat and who are the tares?

To God Be The Glory