Angels

[CoreIssue]

well, well, well, since you said, "I already answered". the scriptures don't agree with your assessment. for the angel in rev 22: said, "the Lord God of the holy prophets" sent him. who are the holy prophets here, beside the NT? answer,
2Pet 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2Pet 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Oh, those holy prophets who was in the OT. and the one who sent the angel, he said it was the one is the Lord God of these "holy prophets". hmmmmmm, seems like the bible is not agreeing with your assessment of the scriptures.

as the apostle Peter said, "it's better to OBEY God than men"....... so I'll believe the scriptures instead of what you said.

be blessed............. ;)

The God of the OT is the God of the NT.

It is not my problem you don't understand the Bible.

 

[brakelite]

How many angels are listed by name in the Bible?
I thought just three, Gabriel, Michael, Lucifer.
Some people tell me there are more.
Are there?
Or is that just a catholic thing?

I don't believe Michael is an angel. Lucifer, yes, Gabriel, absolutely, but Michael is only entitled archangel... Which literally means 'head of the angels'. This does not mean He necessarily is an actual angel. Just like the president of the USA is commander in Chief of the armed forces, does not make him a soldier.

 

[bbyrd009]

alrighty then

 

[Taken]

How many angels are listed by name in the Bible?
I thought just three, Gabriel, Michael, and Lucifer.
Some people tell me there are more.
Are there?
Or is that just a catholic thing?

In my English Text Holy Bible, I find the same three Angels you mention, called by name.

However, in other texts, and word of mouth, I believe Other Angels have been identified to other men, by NAME.

Chapt 12:15 Tobit GNT
I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand in the glorious presence of the Lord, ready to serve him.

Luke 1:19 KJV
And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings.

Rev 8:2 KJV
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

It is obscure IF other "NAMED" angels, come from tradition, historical writing, were NAMES men were TOLD, or men somehow presumed and in effect, called such angels, according to a WORD/name, that identified the mans encounter with the angel.

God Bless,
Merry Christmas
Taken

 

[Taken]

I don't believe Michael is an angel. Lucifer, yes, Gabriel, absolutely, but Michael is only entitled archangel... Which literally means 'head of the angels'. This does not mean He necessarily is an actual angel. Just like the president of the USA is commander in Chief of the armed forces, does not make him a soldier.

I would disagree.

I believe there are SEVEN archangels, that are types of Captains over other angels. Sort of like the "Captains" given Direction from the Lord, to accomplish Particular things, with the service of the others Angels serving in their position, under the Captain, who is under the Lord and in service to the Lord.

Rev 8:2
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

I also believe, BEFORE the Lord appeared, in the likeness AS man on the Earth....
Called JESUS
He appeared TO men in the Likeness AS an Angel of God on the Earth...
called "The" Angel "OF" the LORD.

God Bless
Merry Christmas,
Taken

 

[CoreIssue]

I don't believe Michael is an angel. Lucifer, yes, Gabriel, absolutely, but Michael is only entitled archangel... Which literally means 'head of the angels'. This does not mean He necessarily is an actual angel. Just like the president of the USA is commander in Chief of the armed forces, does not make him a soldier.

Michael is most assuredly an angel.

Bush was military and became commander-in-chief. Commander-in-chief is a rank in the military if you want to get technical. Look at any chain of command graph.

Some titles are lifetime. I am a Navy vet for life. I am mayor for life.

But am I active in either role now? No, but I am and remain on the rosters. My picture hangs in City Hall.

 

[Enoch111]

This does not mean He necessarily is an actual angel.

That would indeed be rather strange. An archangel but not an angel?

No, archangels are the chiefest or highest ranked of angels, and all the angels (both holy and evil) are ranked in hierarchies under their leaders. Michael and the Devil are specifically named on opposite sides of the conflict. However, Lucifer/Satan was not originally an archangel but a cherub (singular of cherubim).

 

[brakelite]

That would indeed be rather strange. An archangel but not an angel?

No, archangels are the chiefest or highest ranked of angels, and all the angels (both holy and evil) are ranked in hierarchies under their leaders. Michael and the Devil are specifically named on opposite sides of the conflict. However, Lucifer/Satan was not originally an archangel but a cherub (singular of cherubim).

So we know Jesus as the Lord of hosts. What is a Lord? Who are the hosts?

 

[Enoch111]

So we know Jesus as the Lord of hosts. What is a Lord? Who are the hosts?

"Lord" in Scripture means master, one with absolute ownership rights and control of another, sovereign, prince, chief, etc.

However *LORD of hosts* is a specific title given to Jesus in the OT, which means that He has absolute sovereignty over the armies (hosts) of the angels in Heaven. He is Lord over Michael the archangel, who is obviously the chiefest of angels. Michael will do nothing without His express order and permission. Michael would not even rebuke Satan when disputing over the body of Moses.

In human terms the supreme commander of an army has the topmost general under his command, and it is only on the orders of the supreme commander that the general can act.

There are some groups who confuse Jesus with Michael, but there is no biblical justification for confusing the creature (Michael) with the Creator (Christ the Word).

 

[bbyrd009]

"Lord" in Scripture means master, one with absolute ownership rights and control of another, sovereign, prince, chief, etc.

a heinous translation of an English term onto the orig intent imo

 

[Enoch111]

a heinous translation of an English term onto the orig intent imo

More rubbish from one who is still grappling with the truth.

 

[bbyrd009]

More rubbish from one who is still grappling with the truth.

ah, wasn't my idea, google knows too :)

 

[brakelite]

There are some groups who confuse Jesus with Michael, but there is no biblical justification for confusing the creature (Michael) with the Creator (Christ the Word).

The confusion lies in the assumption that Michael, "who is like God", is a created being. And I'm the assumption he is an angel. Archangel literally means head of the angels... Not head angel. Would Jesus not have a name to be known by in the OT? We know it wasn't Jesus. Give me one good sound biblical reason why it shouldn't be Michael? Because there are some good sound biblical reasons why it should.

 

[CoreIssue]

The confusion lies in the assumption that Michael, "who is like God", is a created being. And I'm the assumption he is an angel. Archangel literally means head of the angels... Not head angel. Would Jesus not have a name to be known by in the OT? We know it wasn't Jesus. Give me one good sound biblical reason why it shouldn't be Michael? Because there are some good sound biblical reasons why it should.

The one definitive reason it isn't Michael is the second person of the Trinity in the OT also operated as the Angel of the Lord.

He dressed in finery no other angel did. He did not dispute when it was called Lord or bowed to. He made on the spot decisions only God makes and never said the Lord said this or the Lord said that, he just spoke.

Michael is the guardian angel of Israel. Jesus is the Lord of the world.

 

[CoreIssue]

Michael is the only angel specifically named as an archangel, but the Bible is clear he is not the only archangel.

Daniel 10:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.

 

[brakelite]

The one definitive reason it isn't Michael is the second person of the Trinity in the OT also operated as the Angel of the Lord.

Therein is your first assumption... That there is such a thing as a trinity. I have no issue with there being three person's who are deity... But I do have issues with what many assume it's a trinity of 3 co-equal coeternal consubstsntial beings comprising one God. Even Jesus said that the only true God was His Father.
You are correct however that the Son of God was designated as an Angel in the OT. but Jesus was not His name was it.

And henever said the Lord said this of the Lord said that, he just spoke.

KJV John 5
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

Michael is a guardian angel of Israel

Therein is great truth. But veils another assumption that that Michael is an angel. No where in scripture can you confirm that.

 

[101G]

I would disagree.

I believe there are SEVEN archangels, that are types of Captains over other angels. Sort of like the "Captains" given Direction from the Lord, to accomplish Particular things, with the service of the others Angels serving in their position, under the Captain, who is under the Lord and in service to the Lord.

Rev 8:2
And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.

I also believe, BEFORE the Lord appeared, in the likeness AS man on the Earth....
Called JESUS
He appeared TO men in the Likeness AS an Angel of God on the Earth...
called "The" Angel "OF" the LORD.

God Bless
Merry Christmas,
Taken

GINOLJC, to all.

you're right. there are angels that are "captains", supportive scripture,
Josh 5:13 And it came to pass, when Joshua was by Jericho, that he lifted up his eyes and looked, and, behold, there stood a man over against him with his sword drawn in his hand: and Joshua went unto him, and said unto him, Art thou for us, or for our adversaries?
Josh 5:14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my lord unto his servant?
Josh 5:15 And the captain of the LORD'S host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so.

 

[CoreIssue]

Therein is your first assumption... That there is such a thing as a trinity. I have no issue with there being three person's who are deity... But I do have issues with what many assume it's a trinity of 3 co-equal coeternal consubstsntial beings comprising one God. Even Jesus said that the only true God was His Father.
You are correct however that the Son of God was designated as an Angel in the OT. but Jesus was not His name was it.

That makes you a polytheist.

Nor in the Old Testament was the second person of the Trinity ever called the son of God. That was not a reality until his incarnation, which flesh was named Jesus.

It also says you don't understand the meaning of the Hebrew uniplural.

As an example,
Numbers 13:23 New International Version (NIV)
23 When they reached the Valley of Eshkol,a]">[a] they cut off a branch bearing a single cluster of grapes. Two of them carried it on a pole between them, along with some pomegranates and figs.

In the Hebrew text it says carried a grape. Multiple grapes in a unity of one stem.

Uniplural Noun (Forerunner Commentary)

But veils another assumption that that Michael is an angel. No where in scripture can you confirm that.

I can find nothing in the Bible that even hints he is not.
Jude 9 New International Version (NIV)
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”a]">[a]

For the SDA this issue arises from Ellen G White Saying Michael is Jesus, just like Jehovah's Witnesses.


[/QUOTE]

 

[brakelite]

I can find nothing in the Bible that even hints he is not.
Jude 9 New International Version (NIV)
9 But even the archangel Michael, when he was disputing with the devil about the body of Moses, did not himself dare to condemn him for slander but said, “The Lord rebuke you!”a]">[a]

For the SDA this issue arises from Ellen G White Saying Michael is Jesus, just like Jehovah's Witnesses.

[/QUOTE]
LOL you really believe Ellen White came up with this on her own? And if you think the SDA view is the same as the JWs you know nothing of either.
Do a little research. You will find that Michael is not only connected with the Son of God prior to Adventism, but Jewish tradition has much to say in regards Michael as well... And with far greater depth and understanding thani would guess you have been inclined to go.

 

[CoreIssue]

LOL you really believe Ellen White came up with this on her own? And if you think the SDA view is the same as the JWs you know nothing of either.
Do a little research. You will find that Michael is not only connected with the Son of God prior to Adventism, but Jewish tradition has much to say in regards Michael as well... And with far greater depth and understanding thani would guess you have been inclined to go.[/QUOTE]

I'm quite aware as well as it was never accepted by Christianity or Judaism.

Gnosticism, mysticism and different practices have been around for a very long time. Which does not make them true.

So your argument has no merit and no validity.