Annihilationism or Eternal Punishment?

[shinydarkrai94]

[font="Verdana]I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. The links are as follows:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmJfiYSIWU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MPmJfiYSIWU[/url]
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7ysygXeoxRc
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eRFl1jer9Xw

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?[/font]

 

[TheWarIs1]

[font="Verdana]I've noticed that there's a ton of discussion about this on YouTube. A lot of people get quite passionate about it. Eternal punishment(ists?) often associate annihilationism with universalism and reject it as a heresy, while annihilationists call their opponents cruel, heartless, etc and say that their doctrines are based upon pagan beliefs and will sometimes use other insults (one annihilationist I saw called people who disagreed with him "whores of Babylon"). Anyway, I wasn't sure so I did some research on it and debated my dad about it. The links are as follows:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPmJfiYSIWU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=MPmJfiYSIWU[/url]
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=7ysygXeoxRc
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=eRFl1jer9Xw

I haven't done a whole lot of research, but here are a couple things that I've found:

1 - Hell exists
2 - Hell very obviously burns forever
3 - The unsaved face eternal punishment

but then I realized a lot of things that made me favor annihilationism:

1 - In the NT, the Greek word for immortal is used only with the saved and God, never with the unsaved (to be fair, it's not used a lot, but interesting to note).
2 - The verse "fear not the one who can destroy the body, but the one who can destroy the body and soul in hell" at the minimum implies that God is able to destroy the soul. It makes you wonder why Jesus said specifically "in hell" rather than "in general" if the soul really is meant to last forever in hell.
3 - Hell is compared with Sodom and Gomorrah which is interesting since Sodom and Gomorrah is consumed.
4 - Eternal life and eternal punishment are contrasted often. If everyone has eternal life, then why is it contrasted with punishment unless the punishment is death? Or is eternal life some type of phrase meaning specifically, eternal bliss?
5 - The ONLY verse that I've ever heard anyone use (Matt Slick, Kyle Butt, etc) that actually supports (or seems to support) the soul burning in hell forever is Rev 14:9-11. This verse, from the context, definitely seems to be a finite punishment. First, Jesus is mentioned to be in the presence of those who are tortured which makes you wonder why he would spend eternity watching the unsaved tortured. This isn't the significant nor strong evidence, but it's significant nonetheless. Second, John very clearly seems to be quoting or paraphrasing Isaiah 34:10. Check it out for yourself, the verses have the same structure and use the same phrases. However, the context from Isaiah shows that Isaiah is describing a finite destruction. Some may bring up the argument that Aionos ton Aionon (used in Rev 14:9-11) means eternity, but in Revelations, it is used to mean a finite time (namely Rev 11:15 [read 1 Cor 15:23-26 for confirmation, Jesus does not rule for an infinite time on earth] and probably Rev 19:2-3 since the great whore is generally interpreted to be a city or institution). Also, the idea that John was paraphrasing the Old Testament is not implausible as Revelations is estimated to allude to the OT 518 times.


I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?[/font]

Shinydark one. You are a atheist?
IF not then you should not be getting information on the subject from atheist unless you were studying how to convert them.
Comprehende?

There are many opinions on the subject and few will always agree on everything.
I suggest you continue to study for yourself and then study even more.

My opinions changed when I stopped attending a church because of sleeping disorders and started studying on my own with the spirit as my guide.
IF you study on your own you may also start seeing things differently and over time may change you beliefs on these matters.


People jump on the fearful scriptures and overlook many other verses about salvation for all.
Romans 5:15-20 Tells us over and over again that because of Adam all were condemned to die or were made sinners and because of the righteousness of Christ the same ALL shall be made righteous.
Everyone condemned because of Adam shall be justified through Christ.

That is the work he came to do. He is the Bread of Life that gave himself for the life of the World.

The bible does not contradict and if you think so then you have missed something somewhere.

I suggest you study Romans 5 slowly and understand each word.

People mistake the fleshly destruction that will take place with the death of the spirit.
Just because he destroys the wicked in the flesh does not mean he can't saved their souls and cleanse them.

There are many allegorical scriptures people take as factual and then the simple words they overlook because it is impossible for most to be saved in the eyes of man.
According to most believers in Christ only about 20% of the worlds population is going to heaven.
And people will say "they've been warned, it's there fault"




Mat 19:25 And his disciples having heard, were amazed exceedingly, saying, `Who, then, is able to be saved?'

Mat 19:26 And Jesus having earnestly beheld, said to them, `With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.

If all things are possible with God then don't discount the possibility that he can save ALL men.


In the Old and New Testaments it says that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess.....
Bowing a knee represents Submission
Confessing brings Salvation

Is every knee bowing today and every tongue confessing?
When will this prophecy be filled then? It hasn't happened in 7000 years that I know of.
We are to believe this will happen one day?



Christ died for the Ungodly
Halleluyah

 

[tomwebster]

...
People jump on the fearful scriptures and overlook many other verses about salvation for all.
...

Sorry war, you are the one that is confused. Salvation is for all that accept it. Salvation will not be forced on anyone. Reread your texts.

shine, If you read the text again you will notice it is the smoke that goes up forever and ever.

 

[Duckybill]

Christ died for the Ungodly

And those who believe will be saved. Nobody else.

Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[TheWarIs1]

Sorry war, you are the one that is confused. Salvation is for all that accept it. Salvation will not be forced on anyone. Reread your texts.

shine, If you read the text again you will notice it is the smoke that goes up forever and ever.

You're getting off topic. I replied to the OP with my opinion and you two should try to do the same rather than having a go at me.

If you care to debate it I will do so with you Tom if you can keep it non-personal, we should start a new thread.

 

[tomwebster]

You're getting off topic. I replied to the OP with my opinion and you two should try to do the same rather than having a go at me.

If you care to debate it I will do so with you Tom if you can keep it non-personal, we should start a new thread.

And if you read my reply you will see that I addressed the OP as well as your opinion. There are plenty of threads on this subject all ready, read my reply in those.

 

[TheWarIs1]

I remain agnostic on the issue but I lean towards Hell being eternal, souls being destroyed and then facing the eternal punishment - death.

One interesting thing that my dad brought up was the argument that in places such as Job, the devil tempted Job with eternal punishment, but this doesn't make sense if the soul is instantly consumed. It makes me wonder whether people face a finite punishment until Judgment day and then face another finite punishment until their soul is consumed or whether people don't face a punishment and are simply judged according to their sins at Judgment day. I haven't researched a lot on this. So anyway, comments? Questions? Disagreements?[/font]

Hell was a Saxon word never spoken by Christ. So why push the Hellfire doctrine if Christ never said the word?
Because that nice preacher man you know tells you so? Christ used the word Gehenna which was a valley heading south of the city of David and east towards the Lake of Fire or Dead Sea.
That's a whole different concept huh?
Why not tell people they are going to burn in the Gehenna Valley forever or for an age even?

I can tell you right now and this very moment that there is no eternal fire burning in the Gehenna Valley. No all is calm and it's beautiful there now.
The worms still living there but the fires have all died out now.
It was once a smoldering garbage dump where the fires continued day and night.



The words that most of our Bibles have translated "eternal", "forever", and "everlasting" are: "aion" (#165) and the adjective "aionios" (# 166).
Both mean an age, or age-time, or age during . the duration of which is not specified and are used with those definitions in all other writings in Greek including Josephus, Philo, Plato, etc.
Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:

Same word Aion used as Ages and it couldn't be used as Forever, properly anyway..
Several other times it is used as Age.


Hell isn't a word that was spoken by Christ and Everlasting or eternal has conflicts in scriptures and was used for the word Age.

Here is words used to describe Forever and it wasn't AIon which was called Ages in this verse.

Eph 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
World without end = Forever
Aion = Ages and not everlasting

We all need to become Bereans and Prove ALL things.

 

[Duckybill]

Hell was a Saxon word never spoken by Christ. So why push the Hellfire doctrine if Christ never said the word?

Matthew 5:22 (NKJV)
[sup]22 [/sup]But whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:22 (GW)
[sup]22 [/sup]Whoever calls another believer a fool will answer for it in hellfire.

Matthew 5:22 (AMP)
[sup]22 [/sup] and whoever says, You cursed fool! [You empty-headed idiot!] shall be liable to and unable to escape the hell (Gehenna) of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (NASB)
[sup]22 [/sup]" and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:22 (NIV)
[sup]22 [/sup] But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (NLT)
[sup]22 [/sup] And if you curse someone, you are in danger of the fires of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (ESV)
[sup]22 [/sup] and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (NRSV)
[sup]22 [/sup] and if you say, 'You fool,' you will be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (WesleyNT)
[sup]22 [/sup] but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be liable to hell-fire.

Matthew 5:22 (BBE)
[sup]22 [/sup] and whoever says, You foolish one, will be in danger of the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (Darby)
[sup]22 [/sup] but whosoever shall say, Fool, shall be subject to the penalty of the hell of fire.

Matthew 5:22 (KJV)
[sup]22 [/sup] but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Matthew 5:22 (NASB77)
[sup]22 [/sup] and whoever shall say, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell.

Matthew 5:22 (TLB)
[sup]22 [/sup] And if you curse him, you are in danger of the fires of hell.

Matthew 5:22 (ASV)
[sup]22 [/sup] and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of the hell of fire.

 

[Foreigner]

Amazing.

Jesus suffered torture and died a horrible, agonizing death on the cross....


.....just to prevent people from suffering the fate of being instantly burned up and suffering no further?


Uh-huh.

 

[betteroffdead]

I’ve been discussing this issue on the web for several weeks now. I won’t go into the details of my circumstances that lead to all of this. My thinking is still not settled on the issues that have been raised, and I will do further research before I come to any firm conclusion. But these are my preliminary conclusions.



1. The body, soul and spirit are all mortal because saying they are immortal is the same thing as saying God cannot kill them. But God is omnipotent and is thus capable of killing them. Any limitation on His power negates His existence. The question of the mortality/immortality of the body, soul and spirit is separate from the question of whether or not an individual’s body, soul and spirit will die.



2. God did not create body or spirit or soul intending for either of them to be mortal. He created living things to have everlasting life. A God that would create living things intending them to die is not a god worthy of recognition, let alone worship. This rules out death before sin and thus makes an old age for the earth unnecessary (no Darwinism and no Gap) but this does not automatically mean a young earth. It only means that nothing in creation died before Satan rebelled against God and Adam and Eve sinned against God.



3. The idea of eternal torment for the wicked is, in a way, a means of seeking revenge on the wicked- who wouldn’t want an Adolf Hitler or an Osama bin Laden to roast in eternal hell fire- and this negates faith in God based on genuine repentance because you are seeking a way to avoid having to grant forgiveness. Satan benefits from the doctrine of eternal torment for sinners because this doctrine allows false Christians to put a veneer of righteousness on their bloodthirstyness. It allows people to justify refusing forgiveness for people that they don’t want to forgive even though Jesus Christ commands them to forgive.



4. Nobody will legitimately serve God because they are afraid of hellfire. You have to serve God because you genuinely want to serve God. You cannot serve God because of any ulterior motive.



5. Baptists are likely the people that have the greatest reliance on hellfire and this demonstrates the un-repentant sinfulness inherent in Baptists; if it takes the threat of hellfire to keep a Baptist on the straight and narrow path, that Baptist seeks to serve God for personal gain and not because of heartfelt desire to serve God.



6. The people who have told me that hell means eternal torment are also the people most likely to blame me for the misery that has been my existence so far. I still refuse to accept any blame for the results of decisions that I had no say in making- mainly that I had no way to choose my parents. Why these people threaten me with hellfire at the same time they cast blame on me implying that my misery is punishment for something I have done is something I do not understand. But their hostility towards someone that is seeking help speaks volumes against their theology.



7. I doubt that any of these conclusions will help me deal with my current situation. I suspect that separation from my current situation in terms of time and distance, i.e. my situation must improve, is required before I can have any hope of recovery. Whether or not that separation happens remains to be seen.



8. I’ve always accepted the idea of eternal torment for sinners. But, it is possible that I would never have questioned this idea or reached any of these preliminary conclusions without reaching a state of misery so severe that I am willing to risk eternal torment for the sake of ending my current misery by suicide. This may be God’s purpose for my misery; I don’t know for sure yet.