Any non pre-trib teachers?

[Timtofly]

The problem, Tim, is that the position I hold is a *major position* in history, and you don't seem to be able to appreciate what the argument is? According to my position, the "Covenant" was the covenant that Christ made with Israel to complete the promise of Salvation. He did that on the cross. So yes, it did happen "front and center" in 70 AD.



The "Covenant" in Dan 9 has nothing to do with the end of the times of the Gentiles. The 70 Weeks had to do with the fate of rebuilt Jerusalem. The prophecy indicated that after 70 Weeks the temple would be destroyed again, in the time immediately following the cutting off of Messiah. We have 2 different ways of reading it, and thus 2 different positions on it.



I'm not saying, nor does my position require, that the 70 AD judgment against Jerusalem would bring an end to the times of the Gentiles. As I read it, 70 AD was just the *beginning* of the great tribulation of the Jewish People. Luke called it a "Jewish Punishment." It would last from 70 AD until the end of the age, when Christ returns.

If you are going to argue 2 opposing positions, you need to understand both of them, and not just 1 of them.

The Cross was in 30AD. 40 years later even in Biblical thought is not front and center. Two generations of Hebrews died in a 40 year time span in the wilderness. Why would God wait 40 years from Sinai to remove corruption, yet after 40 years, not remove all the 30AD folks, then let the Romans clean up the rest, when it was not even relatable any more? The whole point of removing generations was to keep them from the blessings. Yet we see the church was growing, and did not have to wait until 70AD to start, finish, or get out of the way. It was after 70AD that animosity grew worse between the Jews and the church, because the following generations, could not let go and have not yet, to this day, let go of the Torah and the OT.

The 70th week of Daniel is only about the Messiah and not any man made structures.

 

[Timtofly]

I don't think you understand the quotes. If you wish to challenge what they said or meant, bring up your issues in the posts that includes the quotes. Otherwise, we're engaging in meaningless talk.

You bolded the parts you thought agreed with your position. They do not even come close. I understand that you think they "say something". But only in your mind. The actual words bolded literally do not say what you think they say.


Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defense of His Flight [11])

Chrysostom (379)
"Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers) For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by "abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple,

Titus did not erect a statue. Antiochus Epiphanies is the one Daniel said would place a statue.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Cross was in 30AD. 40 years later even in Biblical thought is not front and center.

In my view, 40 years after the Cross is indeed "front and center" because Jesus warned Israel that their generation would be punished for the sins they were committing. The fact God waited 40 years just shows the patience God had towards the Jewish People.

But this was a major prophecy in the history of Israel. Every major destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was important in biblical prophecy. And the destruction of 70 AD was no different.

Jesus centered on that particular event, as had Daniel before him. Daniel predicted that after 70 consecutive weeks of years, the temple would be destroyed by the people of a ruler, by the Abomination of Desolation. This was the Roman Army, in my opinion.

Two generations of Hebrews died in a 40 year time span in the wilderness. Why would God wait 40 years from Sinai to remove corruption, yet after 40 years, not remove all the 30AD folks, then let the Romans clean up the rest, when it was not even relatable any more?

I don't understand your argument here? In the same pattern of 40 years of wilderness wandering, so God let Jews wander listlessly in a faith no longer honored by God. The new Church was now present, providing them with a witness to the truth. In the end, those who rejected the truth were destroyed in 70 AD. Some were taken away in exile, whereas a few were left to manage the fields for the Romans. But Israel and their religion were destroyed.

The whole point of removing generations was to keep them from the blessings. Yet we see the church was growing, and did not have to wait until 70AD to start, finish, or get out of the way. It was after 70AD that animosity grew worse between the Jews and the church, because the following generations, could not let go and have not yet, to this day, let go of the Torah and the OT.

The 70th week of Daniel is only about the Messiah and not any man made structures.

The 70 Weeks prophecy began with the restored temple and ended with its destruction in 70 AD, after Messiah was "cut off." That's just my view. You're welcome to yours.

 

[Timtofly]

In my view, 40 years after the Cross is indeed "front and center" because Jesus warned Israel that their generation would be punished for the sins they were committing. The fact God waited 40 years just shows the patience God had towards the Jewish People.

But this was a major prophecy in the history of Israel. Every major destruction of Jerusalem and the temple was important in biblical prophecy. And the destruction of 70 AD was no different.

Jesus centered on that particular event, as had Daniel before him. Daniel predicted that after 70 consecutive weeks of years, the temple would be destroyed by the people of a ruler, by the Abomination of Desolation. This was the Roman Army, in my opinion.



I don't understand your argument here? In the same pattern of 40 years of wilderness wandering, so God let Jews wander listlessly in a faith no longer honored by God. The new Church was now present, providing them with a witness to the truth. In the end, those who rejected the truth were destroyed in 70 AD. Some were taken away in exile, whereas a few were left to manage the fields for the Romans. But Israel and their religion were destroyed.



The 70 Weeks prophecy began with the restored temple and ended with its destruction in 70 AD, after Messiah was "cut off." That's just my view. You're welcome to yours.

If you emphasize 70AD you are emphasizing judgment. You end up with more than 490 years.

In 538 BCE King Cyrus made a public declaration granting the Jews the right to return to Judah and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

That would make your time period 608 or 606 years depending on how you view the year 0.

25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

 

[Randy Kluth]

If you emphasize 70AD you are emphasizing judgment. You end up with more than 490 years.

No I don't. I've said that the 70 Weeks themselves were fulfilled in the work of Messiah and in his rejection. This period of 70 Weeks was to be *followed by* the destruction of Jerusalem *in that generation,* and not within the 70 Weeks. This judgment *followed* the 70 Weeks period as a judgment against Israel for cutting off their Messiah!

Of course I'm emphasizing judgment! This is all about judgment. It is all about the fact Salvation cannot come to Israel unless Israel is refined and judged first. Those who are preventing Israel's restoration have to be given their time, until God removes them. Then, God can take a minority of those who are faithful and use them as a template for building a new and lasting nation for Himself.

In 538 BCE King Cyrus made a public declaration granting the Jews the right to return to Judah and rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem.

That would make your time period 608 or 606 years depending on how you view the year 0.

25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times.
26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over.

Yes, Cyrus made the initial declaration and set the goals with his proclamation--all in accord with biblical prophecy and in the time frame of Jeremiah's predicted period of judgment against Israel. This was possibly 609 to 539 BC.

However, Cyrus did not complete his goals of restoring the temple worship and restoring the city of Jerusalem. That was left for later kings who picked up Cyrus' mandate and successively completed his goals with their own proclamations. Artaxerxes in 457 BC determined to complete the process and did. Therefore, the date of this mission is likely the beginning of the 70 Weeks of years leading to Christ's death in the "middle of the Week," approx. 30 AD. This was 486.5 years, in the "middle of" the 70th Week.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You bolded the parts you thought agreed with your position. They do not even come close. I understand that you think they "say something". But only in your mind. The actual words bolded literally do not say what you think they say.
Knowing these things, the Saints regulated their conduct accordingly." (Defense of His Flight [11])

How can this not say what I'm implying it says? If the Disciples of Jesus in the generation of Jesus "regulated their conduct" in accord with Jesus' warning to "flee," then they interpreted this "fleeing" to apply to their own time! They did not, then, interpret the Olivet Discourse to apply to the endtimes and to the Antichrist. The AoD, for them, was the Roman Army coming to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, just as Jesus said in Luke 21.

Chrysostom (379)
"Or because he who had desolated the city and the temple, placed his statue within the temple." (The Ante-Nicene Fathers) For He brought in also a prophecy, to confirm their desolation, saying, "But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation,spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place, let him that readeth understand."(12) He referred them to Daniel. And by "abomination" He meaneth the statue of him who then took the city, which he who desolated the city and the temple placed within the temple,

Titus did not erect a statue. Antiochus Epiphanies is the one Daniel said would place a statue.

My point has to do with the fact these Church Fathers interpreted the AoD as fulfilled in the general time frame of the Roman desolation of Jerusalem and of the temple. Differences over what precisely the "abomination" was is not within this purview, and is not relevant to the point.

 

[Timtofly]

No I don't. I've said that the 70 Weeks themselves were fulfilled in the work of Messiah and in his rejection. This period of 70 Weeks was to be *followed by* the destruction of Jerusalem *in that generation,* and not within the 70 Weeks. This judgment *followed* the 70 Weeks period as a judgment against Israel for cutting off their Messiah!

Of course I'm emphasizing judgment! This is all about judgment. It is all about the fact Salvation cannot come to Israel unless Israel is refined and judged first. Those who are preventing Israel's restoration have to be given their time, until God removes them. Then, God can take a minority of those who are faithful and use them as a template for building a new and lasting nation for Himself.



Yes, Cyrus made the initial declaration and set the goals with his proclamation--all in accord with biblical prophecy and in the time frame of Jeremiah's predicted period of judgment against Israel. This was possibly 609 to 539 BC.

However, Cyrus did not complete his goals of restoring the temple worship and restoring the city of Jerusalem. That was left for later kings who picked up Cyrus' mandate and successively completed his goals with their own proclamations. Artaxerxes in 457 BC determined to complete the process and did. Therefore, the date of this mission is likely the beginning of the 70 Weeks of years leading to Christ's death in the "middle of the Week," approx. 30 AD. This was 486.5 years, in the "middle of" the 70th Week.

Of course all the years happened between the two events, but you are changing the goal post, and saying Daniel had two choices to go by. It still does not strengthen your point either way.

 

[Timtofly]

How can this not say what I'm implying it says? If the Disciples of Jesus in the generation of Jesus "regulated their conduct" in accord with Jesus' warning to "flee," then they interpreted this "fleeing" to apply to their own time! They did not, then, interpret the Olivet Discourse to apply to the endtimes and to the Antichrist. The AoD, for them, was the Roman Army coming to destroy Jerusalem and the temple, just as Jesus said in Luke 21.



My point has to do with the fact these Church Fathers interpreted the AoD as fulfilled in the general time frame of the Roman desolation of Jerusalem and of the temple. Differences over what precisely the "abomination" was is not within this purview, and is not relevant to the point.

The Jews were to flee, not the church.

The church was to take the Gospel to all corners of the earth.

Neither of these deal with Daniel, because the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was a side note. The first century church lived as if every day was the last day. They still lived that way even after 70AD. 70AD did not change their stance one bit. Besides even Josephus watched in 70AD and he already pointed out many had fled Jerusalem years and months prior. That is already a known fact in 70AD. We did not need that repeated as a new fact in the 2nd century.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The Jews were to flee, not the church.

The church was to take the Gospel to all corners of the earth.

Sorry, the beginning of the Church started with Jewish Christians, including the apostles. They *were* in fact "the Church!" The Church was built upon the apostles' testimony to Jesus. All of the apostles were Jewish believers.

Neither of these deal with Daniel, because the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple was a side note.

No, the Church Fathers tended to see Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse as speaking of the same judgment against the Jews sin 70 AD, the Abomination of Desolation. There were a few Church Fathers that felt the AoD was the Antichrist. Today, modern prophecy enthusiasts tend to side with the minority opinion, and ignore the majority view of the Church Fathers.

The first century church lived as if every day was the last day. They still lived that way even after 70AD.

There is no indication whatsoever that anybody in the Early Church lived as if Jesus could return at any moment! This is purely reading something into the text that isn't there. You're reading today's "imminency doctrine" back into the Early Church, when they did *not* believe that! They generally believed Antichrist must appear *before* Christ could come.

70AD did not change their stance one bit. Besides even Josephus watched in 70AD and he already pointed out many had fled Jerusalem years and months prior. That is already a known fact in 70AD. We did not need that repeated as a new fact in the 2nd century.

The point is these Church Fathers largely did not believe the AoD was endtime, as in the reign of Antichrist. Most of them believed it had to do with Jewish punishment generally in the generation of Jesus.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Of course all the years happened between the two events, but you are changing the goal post, and saying Daniel had two choices to go by. It still does not strengthen your point either way.

I have no idea what you're saying? My argument is there for anyone caring to read it. I base my opinion on the view the majority of the Early Church Fathers held to.

 

[Timtofly]

Sorry, the beginning of the Church started with Jewish Christians, including the apostles. They *were* in fact "the Church!" The Church was built upon the apostles' testimony to Jesus. All of the apostles were Jewish believers.



No, the Church Fathers tended to see Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse as speaking of the same judgment against the Jews sin 70 AD, the Abomination of Desolation. There were a few Church Fathers that felt the AoD was the Antichrist. Today, modern prophecy enthusiasts tend to side with the minority opinion, and ignore the majority view of the Church Fathers.



There is no indication whatsoever that anybody in the Early Church lived as if Jesus could return at any moment! This is purely reading something into the text that isn't there. You're reading today's "imminency doctrine" back into the Early Church, when they did *not* believe that! They generally believed Antichrist must appear *before* Christ could come.



The point is these Church Fathers largely did not believe the AoD was endtime, as in the reign of Antichrist. Most of them believed it had to do with Jewish punishment generally in the generation of Jesus.

You say they claimed it was the end of the world in 70AD, yet none of them thought the end was soon?

I agree, the Jews made up the early church, and 70AD meant nothing to them. None of them made the Temple being destroyed any part of the NT or the OT. Why should we?

 

[Timtofly]

I have no idea what you're saying? My argument is there for anyone caring to read it. I base my opinion on the view the majority of the Early Church Fathers held to.

That 70AD had nothing to do with the NT or OT. It was a historical event just like all other wars in history. Jesus did say there will be wars and rumors of wars, and that has been almost non stop for 1990 years.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

The Cross was in 30AD. 40 years later even in Biblical thought is not front and center. Two generations of Hebrews died in a 40 year time span in the wilderness. Why would God wait 40 years from Sinai to remove corruption, yet after 40 years, not remove all the 30AD folks, then let the Romans clean up the rest, when it was not even relatable any more? The whole point of removing generations was to keep them from the blessings. Yet we see the church was growing, and did not have to wait until 70AD to start, finish, or get out of the way. It was after 70AD that animosity grew worse between the Jews and the church, because the following generations, could not let go and have not yet, to this day, let go of the Torah and the OT.

The 70th week of Daniel is only about the Messiah and not any man made structures.

WRong!

It is about Messiah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple.

Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

 

[Timtofly]

WRong!

It is about Messiah, Israel, Jerusalem and the Temple.

Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

After the 62 weeks is about Messiah, Jerusalem, the Temple and Israel.

The whole 69 weeks was about Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple.

The 70th week was only about the Messiah.

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah already finished 3.5 years. However since the Second Coming cannot be known, the last 3.5 years will be shortened in length. Meaning there is not going to be a solid 3.5 year finish. It was not in the 1st century, the 2nd century, nor will it be future.

Now if you want to say the Messiah lived for the whole 490 years, and those years was about the Messiah, have at it.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

After the 62 weeks is about Messiah, Jerusalem, the Temple and Israel.

The whole 69 weeks was about Israel, Jerusalem, and the Temple.

The 70th week was only about the Messiah.

27 And he (the Messiah) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he (the Messiah) shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The Messiah already finished 3.5 years. However since the Second Coming cannot be known, the last 3.5 years will be shortened in length. Meaning there is not going to be a solid 3.5 year finish. It was not in the 1st century, the 2nd century, nor will it be future.

Now if you want to say the Messiah lived for the whole 490 years, and those years was about the Messiah, have at it.

Well then you should tell God that you have decided that teh last 3 1/2 yearsd will not be 3 1/2 years so He can correct His Inspired Word! He said 70 weeks and that the last 7 is for Jesus to return and regards the temple:

Daniel 9:27
King James Version

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Stuff for teh temple:

1. sacrifice and oblation to cease
2. abomination of desolation
3. making the temple desolate.

 

[Timtofly]

Well then you should tell God that you have decided that teh last 3 1/2 yearsd will not be 3 1/2 years so He can correct His Inspired Word! He said 70 weeks and that the last 7 is for Jesus to return and regards the temple:

Daniel 9:27
King James Version

27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Stuff for teh temple:

1. sacrifice and oblation to cease
2. abomination of desolation
3. making the temple desolate.

Satan is the Steward of the vineyard for the last 42 months. Then Armageddon. Then the Millennium. Is there a 3.5 year vacation from reality between Armageddon and the Millennium?

Jesus claims His 3.5 years are shortened. Matthew 24:20-22

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Satan is the Steward of the vineyard for the last 42 months. Then Armageddon. Then the Millennium. Is there a 3.5 year vacation from reality between Armageddon and the Millennium?

Jesus claims His 3.5 years are shortened. Matthew 24:20-22

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

And given that when the Antichrist enters teh temple, it will take 3.5 years for the Lord to return, Those are the years the antichrist has to work!

But it will last 3.5 years, that is prophesied.

The two meanings that are possible.

If it lasted longer than the 3.5 years no flesh would survive. The bible says teh second half of the trib is 3.5 years so it will not be shortened.

Teh seond is yours which requires us to reject SCripture and give a new toime frame.

Between The time jesus touches down to earth and the Millenial kingdom begoins , there is a 75 day interval.

 

[Timtofly]

And given that when the Antichrist enters teh temple, it will take 3.5 years for the Lord to return, Those are the years the antichrist has to work!

But it will last 3.5 years, that is prophesied.

The two meanings that are possible.

If it lasted longer than the 3.5 years no flesh would survive. The bible says teh second half of the trib is 3.5 years so it will not be shortened.

Teh seond is yours which requires us to reject SCripture and give a new toime frame.

Between The time jesus touches down to earth and the Millenial kingdom begoins , there is a 75 day interval.

It is not a new time frame. It is an overlooked time frame.

In the 6th Seal, God on the throne and the Lamb are present on the earth. Between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet is the shortened time frame.

Satan's 42 months is after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. In fact it splits the week of the sound of the 7th Trumpet in half.

The rapture and the Second Coming happen at the 6th Seal. Jesus and John place the Second Coming at the 6th Seal:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that the Trumpets sound after the Second Coming.....

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This happens before the 7th Seal and prior to the Trumpets.

This fear of every human is not by faith.

They actually see God on the throne and the Lamb on earth and know the end is near.


Where in Revelation 19 and 20 does it say there is a 75 day interval?

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It is not a new time frame. It is an overlooked time frame.

In the 6th Seal, God on the throne and the Lamb are present on the earth. Between the 6th Seal and the 7th Trumpet is the shortened time frame.

Satan's 42 months is after the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. In fact it splits the week of the sound of the 7th Trumpet in half.

The rapture and the Second Coming happen at the 6th Seal. Jesus and John place the Second Coming at the 6th Seal:

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Notice that the Trumpets sound after the Second Coming.....

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?


This happens before the 7th Seal and prior to the Trumpets.

This fear of every human is not by faith.

They actually see God on the throne and the Lamb on earth and know the end is near.


Where in Revelation 19 and 20 does it say there is a 75 day interval?

That is not an oft overlooked time frame. I just spent 2 hours onloine debating a pastor who holds to that. He calls it pre wrath rapture.

I am convinced the first 6 seals are pretribulational events. Before the antichrist can sign a covenant with Israel that He has power to enforce, he has to rise to power. Instead of imagining some extra biblical way that he ascends politically and militarily, we see seal 1 as the antichrist going out to conquer! Who would He conquer? The 3 of the ten horns, and then the other seven give their allegiance to him as it is written. This happens after the one word govt. has taken place as written in Daniel by the fourth beast.

YOu would have the 7th seal and all the trumpet and bowl judgments occur in 3 1/2 years? Remember the Antichrist has not even had the image set up yet nor the mark demanded!

No teh 6th seal commences teh great and terrible day of the Lord as written in Joel 2 and that is a 7 year period. The first 3 1/2 years are a time of global tribulation. The second 3 1/2 years (after the antichrist rises from the dead and enters the holy of holies as the Abomination) is the period of great tribulation. Even a look at the different results of the trumpet and bowl judgments shows that the bowls are a much greater punishment on earth than has ever been seen.

 

[Timtofly]

That is not an oft overlooked time frame. I just spent 2 hours onloine debating a pastor who holds to that. He calls it pre wrath rapture.

I am convinced the first 6 seals are pretribulational events. Before the antichrist can sign a covenant with Israel that He has power to enforce, he has to rise to power. Instead of imagining some extra biblical way that he ascends politically and militarily, we see seal 1 as the antichrist going out to conquer! Who would He conquer? The 3 of the ten horns, and then the other seven give their allegiance to him as it is written. This happens after the one word govt. has taken place as written in Daniel by the fourth beast.

YOu would have the 7th seal and all the trumpet and bowl judgments occur in 3 1/2 years? Remember the Antichrist has not even had the image set up yet nor the mark demanded!

No teh 6th seal commences teh great and terrible day of the Lord as written in Joel 2 and that is a 7 year period. The first 3 1/2 years are a time of global tribulation. The second 3 1/2 years (after the antichrist rises from the dead and enters the holy of holies as the Abomination) is the period of great tribulation. Even a look at the different results of the trumpet and bowl judgments shows that the bowls are a much greater punishment on earth than has ever been seen.

The 7 bowls/vials only last 3.5 days. They happen after the 42 months ends. They happen while the dead bodies of the 2 witnesses lay in Jerusalem. The last few bowls prepare for the 1 hour battle of Armageddon on a Sunday between 5pm and 6pm. The 2 witnesses were brought back to life and ascended to heaven earlier that Sunday morning.

The 7th Trumpet sounds for 8 days, Sunday to the last Sunday until 6pm.

On Wednesday of that week, if Satan is allowed the week is split in half, but the 7th Trumpet does not stop. The AC is the result of when the 7th Trumpet starts. Revelation 12 has the 7th Trumpet removing Satan and his angels permanently from heaven. The 7th Trumpet covers the rise of the AoD, the image of the AC. Probably set in motion on Monday. If the week is split in half, that starts the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses. Jesus Christ and the 144k leave the earth and the 2 witnesses are all God leaves on earth, other than the blaring of the 7th Trumpet.

The Second Coming is in the 6th Seal. The Trumpets, 6 of them and the 7 Thunders are the final harvest while Jesus Christ and the 144k, along with the angels are harvesting the souls of the sheep, goats, wheat, and tares.

The 7th Trumpet marks the end of the first half, but the first half is not 3.5 years in length. There are only 2 years left after this coming Passover. The 1st Seal was opened in Oct. 2019. What is the Corona virus? It is a white body with red crowns that have literally conquered the world.

The Seals, Trumpets, and Thunders do cover a 3.5 year period. But the Second Coming is the unknown event to happen any time during those first 3.5 years. There are literally 5 Seals that had to open prior to the Second Coming.