Any non pre-trib teachers?

[Eternally Grateful]

There is no Bible verse that says this will happen. It muse be assumed and is pure conjecture.

Yet we see people who have been raptured judged and adored in their robed before the first seal is opened which begins Gods wrath

the Bible does not at the word trinity either, but I hope you believe this, I am just giving you one proof, there are many and you can not give me any reason to see those people were after Gods wrath not before, soo

Of course you and all who have been deceived by false teachings, won't change your beliefs, no matter how many Bible proofs I present.
It would take a very dramatic event to do that. Surprise!!! That is just what the Lord is going to do; Isaiah 29:5-6, Isaiah 48:3, Psalms 73:19-20, Revelation 6:12-17

Or maybe your the one deceived by false beliefs and will not change

if you want to discuss this let’s discuss, this type of strawman will get you no where, it will just prove to me you have nothing else to offer and I can move on.

the time of Gods wrath is said to last for 3.5 years. The seals that are opened are part of that wrath, so they could not have occured 2000 years ago, saying that were again just further points me away from your thinking,

 

[Ronald Nolette]

What you're doing it claiming Jesus is wrong, and I won't go there. If Jesus said nobody knows the day of his return, except the Father, that's exactly what he means.

I realize that you're claiming that the 2nd Coming is different from his 1st Coming. But Jesus plainly said nobody knows that day of his Coming, whether you think he comes twice or not.

Yes, Jesus comes 3.5 years after Antichrist begins his reign (not 7 years). But he doesn't come precisely 3.5 years after he begins his reign.

Rather, after Antichrist's unchallenged reign comes to an end at the end of 3.5 years, there may be an indeterminate period of time in which the nations rebel against Antichrist, leading to a mobilization to Armageddon in Israel. International mobilization takes time, and we are not told precisely how long it will take.

So no--we don't know the day of Christ's Return at the end of the age, aka the 2nd Coming. And we shouldn't try to contradict what Jesus said about not knowing when he is returning.

Well the Antichrist reigns for 7 years as is written in Daniel.

Matt. 24:36 is introducing a new thought. "But of" in 36 is the "peri-de" construct which shows a new idea is beig talked about.

So Jesus is not talking about teh day of His 2 nd coming but of His descending to gather the saints.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Paul did not say that would happen. He said; he would rather be exiled from the body and make our home with the Lord. 2 Corinthians 5:8
The New Jerusalem comes down to mankind. Revelation 21:1 THEN those worthy will live in it.

I don't know what mangled translation you just used to justify your position but that is such a poor version. But even still- it is all in the present which means that when one is "exiled" from the body they are at home with the Lord!

What you do, is to make the prophesies suit your beliefs.
When anything contradicts your beliefs, instead of proving it wrong, you resort to rude accusations.

Well you are hard to prove wrong1 Because you are writing about how you reinterpret Scripture. So when I speak Scripture you speak of your re-interpretation. that is what teh Jehovahs Witnesses do!

What I promote from the Prophetic Word, is opposed to your beliefs. I and others know which one to trust!

Well then this is where we end any further conversation on this thread.

I will gladly allow god to judge between me and you! And I will gladly allow for time to show ther errors of your re-interpreting of Scripture! Have yopu r last word. I will not respond, for what you promote is your opinion of the Word and not the Word itself.

 

[Keraz]

That is not possible. The 2 Witnesses prophecy and minister for 1260 days. If they are dead 4 of those days then they didn't actually minister for 1260 days!

I contend that their lying dead in the street for 3 days, then standing up and being taken to heaven, WAS a very effective finale to their ministry!

When you said the 1st 5 seals were fulfilled *at Jesus' ascension,* it sounded like you were placing all 5 seals precisely *at that event.* Apparently not. I misunderstood you.

The first Five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. We have experienced the effects of them since then.

That's precisely how these signs were used to warn Israel prior to its judgment in 70 AD. Only the seals of the book of Revelation are concerned with the whole world, and no longer just with Israel. This is an ongoing historical process that involves the entire NT period, in my opinion.

The Roman conquest in 70 to 135 AD, was just one of the many nasty wars the world has had, I agree; for the entire NT period, the Christian era of 2000 years. Now at 1990 +/- a few years.

Yes, this is the typical view of futurists, who want to predict, in detail, the endtimes. This is precisely what you yourself wish to do in predicting a Solar Flare. I don't believe future prophecies were designed to be catalogued, explained in minute detail, and then anticipated, as if we have a crystal ball to warn us.

Crystal balls and divination are sin. We have the plain Words of the Bible prophets, Isaiah 30:26a does tell us the sun will explode out a huge flash, affecting the world very badly.
God has informed us in great detail of this world changing event. To dismiss it is another sin.

The vision of the Great Multitude, and also of the 144,000 in Rev 14, are prolepses, representing the final state of the saints at the 2nd Coming. Their purpose is to show what they must go through to get there.

Rubbish! Those prophesies are about real living people and what their task is. Isaiah 66:19

Heavenly visions are not for the purpose of showing whether they are on earth or in heaven. Visions are by definition "heavenly visions." If they are viewed in heaven, it simply indicates they are visions from God, and not necessarily the actual events being described in literal terms!

This is a direct contradiction of what Jesus said in Revelation 1:1-3
It simply leaves people in the dark; 1 Thess 5:4

You really have no idea, do you? You must not be living for Christ?

My entire life, since my teens, has been a tribulation and a persecution. Spiritual opposition began the moment I decided to live my entire life for Christ, and determined to share who I was in Christ to the world.

Presenting his word to the world brings rejection, opposition, and persecution. If you don't experience this, you must be living for Christ on a small island in the Pacific, with nobody else living there?

I have spent over 10 years serving in overseas missions. Now at age 79, I help people to understand God's Plan for our future.
I have not had to face persecution as you have, God will reward you for standing firm in your faith.
But, now that the Lord has tasked me to promote the Prophetic Word, I do get opposition and abuse. It can be very frustrating when no one seems to agree with what I post.
Al least, I have presented an alternative to what most think will happen, or what they want God to do for them.

 

[Taken]

So I listen to CSN while I work. I love the preaching but I don't agree with the pre-trib rapture that they are always teaching. Is there any online sources of good teachers with a non pre-trib view? Thanks in advance.

You will likely find a mix of teaching.
•Pre-Trib..."RAPTURE" is reference to those already Made Whole- in Christ;
-Body dead-
-Soul Restored-
-Spirit Born Again-
-Not subject to Wrath-
•two categories;
Already physically bodily dead-
...Soul & Spirit in Heaven
Still physically bodily alive-
...Soul & Spirit in Body on Earth
• both categories meet together in the Clouds; NOT Heaven, NOT on Earth; but above the face of the Earth during the Wrath that takes place on the Earth.
Wrath of the Lamb;
Wrath of the Devil;
Wrath of God.

There is also a first portion of the Trib and mid-trib, Events of men coming into belief, physically bodily becoming dead, but their Saved soul & Quickened spirit raising up to Heaven.
Their physical body remaining on Earth.

Last portion of Trib, is Satans full control...
A few remaining WHO believe in God, will be saved from physical death.
The rest Against God Shall all bodily Die, their souls unsaved sent to hell... their i Quickened natural spirit Die with their natural flesh.

All Satanic Spirits shall be removed from the Earth, to Hell.

For 1,000 years...The remaining Mortals shall multiply on Earth...Jesus and those in the Clouds with Him come to Earth...and chosen Holy saints shall occupy the Earth for 1,000 years.

It is thereafter...all Unholy spirits, all body's OF unsaved souls, and body's OF Saved souls, and Already on Earth body's OF Saved souls...are judged....and men continue in life with God...or are forever separated from God.
As well all Celestial holy spirits remain with God Forever. and all Celestial fallen spirits are separated from God Forever.

Tribulations of the last days, is the finishing of a DIVIDE between spirits and God, men and God, that started from the Beginning...and Ending with a Final With God, or a Final Separation without God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I contend that their lying dead in the street for 3 days, then standing up and being taken to heaven, WAS a very effective finale to their ministry!

Wow, that's some pretty creative thinking on the fly! But I don't think that's the likely scenario. After 1260 days they are killed--not before the 1260 days are ended.

Rev 11.3 And I will appoint my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” 7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.

The first Five Seals were opened by Jesus at His Ascension. We have experienced the effects of them since then.

The Roman conquest in 70 to 135 AD, was just one of the many nasty wars the world has had, I agree; for the entire NT period, the Christian era of 2000 years. Now at 1990 +/- a few years.

Crystal balls and divination are sin. We have the plain Words of the Bible prophets, Isaiah 30:26a does tell us the sun will explode out a huge flash, affecting the world very badly.

Isa 30.26 sounds more like a blessing than a curse!

Isa 30.26 The moon will shine like the sun, and the sunlight will be seven times brighter, like the light of seven full days, when the Lord binds up the bruises of his people and heals the wounds he inflicted.

God has informed us in great detail of this world changing event. To dismiss it is another sin.

To not accept your interpretation of Bible Prophecy is a "sin?"

Rubbish! Those prophesies are about real living people and what their task is. Isaiah 66:19

I was talking about Rev 7--not Isa 66. We shouldn't confuse them. They are a prolepsis of where God's People will be when Christ comes back. The Great Multitude will emerge out of the Great Tribulation of the present age, and stand before God unscathed. Who ever said they aren't "living people?" But it is a vision of living people. John was seeing *visions!* This event, being depicted, *has not happened yet!* In that sense, they are not yet "living people!"

This is a direct contradiction of what Jesus said in Revelation 1:1-3
It simply leaves people in the dark; 1 Thess 5:4

Nothing I said leaves anybody in the dark, nor does it contradict Rev 1.1-3. John received heavenly visions. That is exactly what we were told. We were not told that his visions in heaven represent prophecies of our future geographical destination. we are just told that John received some of these visions from heaven, just as Paul received some visions from heaven. How on earth is that a threat?

I have spent over 10 years serving in overseas missions. Now at age 79, I help people to understand God's Plan for our future.
I have not had to face persecution as you have, God will reward you for standing firm in your faith.
But, now that the Lord has tasked me to promote the Prophetic Word, I do get opposition and abuse. It can be very frustrating when no one seems to agree with what I post.
Al least, I have presented an alternative to what most think will happen, or what they want God to do for them.

Thank you for your service to the Kingdom. I in no way would want to discourage that, nor dishonor your service in any way. On the contrary, it's a noble thing you've done. But I have no qualms about stating my views--I've studied biblical prophecy over the last 50 years. I don't claim to have it down pat. I just know it well enough to state my views, with backing from the Scriptures.

Even at 79 you should be able to check yourself, in case you've missed the boat somewhere. We're not perfect on this side of God's Kingdom. So let's keep striving to be as pure as we can be, and not get too worked up over anything?

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well the Antichrist reigns for 7 years as is written in Daniel.

Matt. 24:36 is introducing a new thought. "But of" in 36 is the "peri-de" construct which shows a new idea is beig talked about.

Grammar can take you only so far. What rules in interpretation is *context.* To interpret a sentence by pointing out the nuance of a conjunction is extremely weak, in my view.

The context of the Discourse is about the destruction of the temple, as well as the 2nd Coming. Jesus was asked *when* the temple would be destroyed, and about how to know when the Kingdom is coming. So Jesus is saying that the 70 AD event will happen "in this generation," but of the 2nd Coming no sign will be given, except the exhortation to repent, such as was the message in the days of Jonah. We are not to try to anticipate judgment in advance. Rather, we are always to live lives of righteousness, repenting of our sins, so that whenever judgment falls, we will be ready.

So Jesus is not talking about teh day of His 2 nd coming but of His descending to gather the saints.

Sorry, we can't agree on this one. The 2nd Coming is the same time that the saints are gathered. The saints are gathered 1st, just as Jesus begins his descent from heaven. That way, we will be glorified with him when he descends to establish his Kingdom on earth, and we will be able to rule with him.

 

[Keraz]

I don't know what mangled translation you just used to justify your position but that is such a poor version. But even still- it is all in the present which means that when one is "exiled" from the body they are at home with the Lord!

I use the Revised English Bible, the version that the Wickliffe translators use.
But even in the KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:8 Paul also says he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. It isn't a definitive statement, but a wish; something he would prefer.
NOT a scripture to build a doctrine on!

We were not told that his visions in heaven represent prophecies of our future geographical destination. we are just told that John received some of these visions from heaven, just as Paul received some visions from heaven. How on earth is that a threat?

The problem lies is your downgrading of the Prophecies. You make them out to be just airy fairy visions, that don't really relate to any future events.
But they all do tell of actual places and people, just as the fulfilled ones about the fate of Judah in 586 BC and again in 70 AD did.

 

[Randy Kluth]

I use the Revised English Bible, the version that the Wickliffe translators use.
But even in the KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:8 Paul also says he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. It isn't a definitive statement, but a wish; something he would prefer.
NOT a scripture to build a doctrine on!

The problem lies is your downgrading of the Prophecies. You make them out to be just airy fairy visions, that don't really relate to any future events.
But they all do tell of actual places and people, just as the fulfilled ones about the fate of Judah in 586 BC and again in 70 AD did.

A number of prophecies in the OT specified certain peoples and lands. I don't see that in the book of Revelation except with respect to the subtle references to the Romans (as well as in the prophecies to the 7 churches).

I don't see my interpretations as "airy." I believe Armageddon will be a literal war at the end of the age. I believe there will be a literal 3.5 years of Antichristian reign. I believe Jesus will literally come again, and literally establish a Christian Kingdom on earth.

No, I don't assign specific events to the 4 horsemen, simply because no specific information is given by which to do that. So I assume we are to interpret these things more generally.

That doesn't mean I see them as less literal. I just interpret them differently from you. In my view, you seem to be adding a particular sensational interpretation. It's almost like a call to build a bomb shelter!

But in both our cases, we are trying to find the literal meaning. We just disagree. I'm not an alarmist in this. You are.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

I use the Revised English Bible, the version that the Wickliffe translators use.
But even in the KJV, 2 Corinthians 5:8 Paul also says he would rather be absent from the body and be present with the Lord. It isn't a definitive statement, but a wish; something he would prefer.
NOT a scripture to build a doctrine on!

I promised you the last word and you shall have it.

But you err because you will use a bible that infers a forced out of the body (exile)
ex·ile
/ˈeɡˌzīl,ˈekˌsīl/
noun

1. the state of being barred from one's native country, typically for political or punitive reasons.
   "he knew now that he would die in exile"

YOur second error is that the bible in the original language gives not even a subatomic space for this phrase being a wish. So for one who was given a divine revelation, somehow at some point you left the Divine revelation and adopted a different revelation that is not Divine.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Grammar can take you only so far. What rules in interpretation is *context.* To interpret a sentence by pointing out the nuance of a conjunction is extremely weak, in my view.

The context of the Discourse is about the destruction of the temple, as well as the 2nd Coming. Jesus was asked *when* the temple would be destroyed, and about how to know when the Kingdom is coming. So Jesus is saying that the 70 AD event will happen "in this generation," but of the 2nd Coming no sign will be given, except the exhortation to repent, such as was the message in the days of Jonah. We are not to try to anticipate judgment in advance. Rather, we are always to live lives of righteousness, repenting of our sins, so that whenever judgment falls, we will be ready.



Sorry, we can't agree on this one. The 2nd Coming is the same time that the saints are gathered. The saints are gathered 1st, just as Jesus begins his descent from heaven. That way, we will be glorified with him when he descends to establish his Kingdom on earth, and we will be able to rule with him.

Well it may be weak in your view- but it is how we are to understand thoughts within a passage. If we do nto follow rules of grammar in passages then we are left with a pool of muck where everyone in their view can do what they wish!

YOu miss the third question the apostles asked which is what is the sign of thy coming?

No sign given for the second coming? REally?

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

I Agree how we are to live our lives!

But if we are raptured while Jesus is on his way down to earth then who is this in heaven?

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


This is a scene in heaven and the bride is in heaven. Is there a second bride somewhere? How about all believers standing before the bema seat of Jesus to be judged for our works? Is that happening while we are snatched and heading down at the same time? Jesus is awful busy on his way down according to you!

Judging billions of saints, having their wood hay and stubble burned off, then clothing us all in righteous linens all while he is leading the host of heaven in preparation for the final battle of the armegeddon campaign.

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well it may be weak in your view- but it is how we are to understand thoughts within a passage. If we do nto follow rules of grammar in passages then we are left with a pool of muck where everyone in their view can do what they wish!

Those are *your* rules of grammar--not THE rules of grammar! There's nothing murky about the interpretation I just gave. It's a matter of common sense.

If you think you can interpret the grammatical rules of the Greek language, please tell me at what level of Greek you are? Otherwise, you are just trying to impose your own grammatical rules upon a translation of the Greek. And in my opinion, your view not only doesn't make sense, but those aren't THE rules of English grammar!

YOu miss the third question the apostles asked which is what is the sign of thy coming?

I didn't miss anything. I've memorized this passage, and am familiar with all 3 versions, which say essentially the same thing. It's clear that the authors put Jesus' words in their own words, without being as much concerned about using Jesus' precise words as giving precise meaning to what he said using words the equivalent of what he said in their recollection.

No sign given for the second coming? REally?

I gave you the quote. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem. It wasn't actually in this particular Discourse, but Jesus said no sign would be given to his generation, except the sign of Noah, which is, of course, the exhortation to repent.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

No signs would be given to the unbelieving generation that was rejecting him. Not even Jesus' apostles were given signs, so as to keep faith a matter of current obedience, rather than of prognostication and cleverness.

I Agree how we are to live our lives!
But if we are raptured while Jesus is on his way down to earth then who is this in heaven?

Revelation 19
King James Version

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.


This is a scene in heaven and the bride is in heaven. Is there a second bride somewhere? How about all believers standing before the bema seat of Jesus to be judged for our works? Is that happening while we are snatched and heading down at the same time? Jesus is awful busy on his way down according to you!

Judging billions of saints, having their wood hay and stubble burned off, then clothing us all in righteous linens all while he is leading the host of heaven in preparation for the final battle of the armegeddon campaign.

Yes, I understand how it appears. A scholar named George E. Ladd explained in a book that Revelation utilizes the literary device called the "prolepsis." In these visions, John sees the Church's final destination, and uses that as an indication of their assured victory in advance, even as they traverse the tribulations of Antichrist's reign.

There are perhaps already the departed saints in heaven--we are told that when the saints die they are in the presence of the Lord, which is in heaven. So these visions are a prolepsis of the Church to be in the future--not as they are now, unless you consider the presence of the departed saints with the Lord in heaven.

 

[Keraz]

I promised you the last word and you shall have it.

The Lord will have the Last Word.
There will be no 'rapture to heaven' for anyone other than the 2 Witnesses and their souls come to earth with Him. Rev 20:4
Jesus said such a thing was impossible.

No, I don't assign specific events to the 4 horsemen, simply because no specific information is given by which to do that. So I assume we are to interpret these things more generally.

You missed Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8

But in both our cases, we are trying to find the literal meaning. We just disagree. I'm not an alarmist in this. You are.

It is unfortunate that the prophesies that I promote, do sound 'alarmist'. That isn't my fault!
Prophesies like Isaiah 30:26a, which plainly state how the Lord will cause the sun to suddenly explode out extreme brightness; that also means pressure and heat, seriously affecting the earth.
A known possibility, warned about by NASA and many other people who study the sun.
We have been warned; it is foolishness to ignore it.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You missed Zechariah 1:8-11 and 6:1-8

I didn't miss that at all. That was from a prophet of the restoration, Zechariah. He spoke of a time prior to the 1st coming of Christ. The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse have a fulfillment in the NT period.

I was talking about the lack of details in Rev 6, with respect to *who* the 4 Horsemen referred to. We are not given identifying features. Therefore, I find it acceptable to try not to give it a name that we aren't being given.

It is unfortunate that the prophesies that I promote, do sound 'alarmist'. That isn't my fault!
Prophesies like Isaiah 30:26a, which plainly state how the Lord will cause the sun to suddenly explode out extreme brightness; that also means pressure and heat, seriously affecting the earth.
A known possibility, warned about by NASA and many other people who study the sun.
We have been warned; it is foolishness to ignore it.

I appreciate the fact you try not to be "alarmist." Warnings of judgment are not intended to cause the fear of death, since repentance relieves us of the fear of judgment.

 

[Keraz]

I didn't miss that at all. That was from a prophet of the restoration, Zechariah. He spoke of a time prior to the 1st coming of Christ. The 4 Horsemen of the Apocalypse have a fulfillment in the NT period.

I was talking about the lack of details in Rev 6, with respect to *who* the 4 Horsemen referred to. We are not given identifying features. Therefore, I find it acceptable to try not to give it a name that we aren't being given.

The problems of war, famine and plagues have affected mankind pretty much ever since Adam. The 4 Horsemen are simply allegories.
They are getting worse as populations increase and we are now in the time of the 'birth pangs', near the end of this Church age.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The problems of war, famine and plagues have affected mankind pretty much ever since Adam. The 4 Horsemen are simply allegories.
They are getting worse as populations increase and we are now in the time of the 'birth pangs', near the end of this Church age.

I have no problem with that statement. We have at least some basis for agreement. Thanks.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Those are *your* rules of grammar--not THE rules of grammar! There's nothing murky about the interpretation I just gave. It's a matter of common sense.

If you think you can interpret the grammatical rules of the Greek language, please tell me at what level of Greek you are? Otherwise, you are just trying to impose your own grammatical rules upon a translation of the Greek. And in my opinion, your view not only doesn't make sense, but those aren't THE rules of English grammar!

Well they are the rules to understand Greek grammar and we in English follow those same rules. sorry but that is just the way it is!

Actually I go those rules from onlione greek grammar sites that you can google if you wish. Otherwise I consider you just talking out of your hat!

Well YOUR interpretation may be a matter of common sense, but it is not biblical sense!

I didn't miss anything. I've memorized this passage, and am familiar with all 3 versions, which say essentially the same thing. It's clear that the authors put Jesus' words in their own words, without being as much concerned about using Jesus' precise words as giving precise meaning to what he said using words the equivalent of what he said in their recollection.

Well I am speaking of te 3 not 2 questions the Apostles asked Jesus! And the words teh apostles used were inspired by god HImself. It is His Word not theirs.

I gave you the quote. If you don't want to believe it, that's your problem. It wasn't actually in this particular Discourse, but Jesus said no sign would be given to his generation, except the sign of Noah, which is, of course, the exhortation to repent.

Well as Jesus full well knew that His second coming would not occur with that generation, the sign of resurrection for that generation is badly misapplied. For Jesus showed that sign 3 times after He said that!

No signs would be given to the unbelieving generation that was rejecting him. Not even Jesus' apostles were given signs, so as to keep faith a matter of current obedience, rather than of prognostication and cleverness.

YOu don't even know what signs that unbelieving generation was asking for in its context then. But Jesus gave specific signs as to His second coming! So we could know the times and seasons as Jesus said!

Yes, I understand how it appears. A scholar named George E. Ladd explained in a book that Revelation utilizes the literary device called the "prolepsis." In these visions, John sees the Church's final destination, and uses that as an indication of their assured victory in advance, even as they traverse the tribulations of Antichrist's reign.

There are perhaps already the departed saints in heaven--we are told that when the saints die they are in the presence of the Lord, which is in heaven. So these visions are a prolepsis of the Church to be in the future--not as they are now, unless you consider the presence of the departed saints with the Lord in heaven.

And who exactly revealed to this Mr. Ladd, exactly what John was using? did He have a sit down with the apostle? did Jesus appear to HIm and showed him what John was doing?

That is pretty impressive for a semi literate fisherman turned apostle who probably hadn't even mastered His own native Hebrew, never mind the nuanced forms of Greek speech!

And I never said that REv. 20 is avision of the church in Johns day or even in our day! But n the day right before Jesus physically comes back to earth in His Second Coming!

 

[Mantis]

What do the non pre-trib people make of these versus(Matthew 24:40-42)? I have been told that this speaks of the pre-trib rapture "because after the last trump the world has been devastated by the tribulation and mere survival will be all that humans are focusing on. They state that this is not like in the days of Noah because people will not be marrying, given to marriage etc. People will be just trying to survive. So that means this is the rapture Jesus speaks of. This is a valid point.

Matthew 24:40-42

“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

 

[Keraz]

What do the non pre-trib people make of these versus(Matthew 24:40-42)? I have been told that this speaks of the pre-trib rapture "because after the last trump the world has been devastated by the tribulation and mere survival will be all that humans are focusing on. They state that this is not like in the days of Noah because people will not be marrying, given to marriage etc. People will be just trying to survive. So that means this is the rapture Jesus speaks of. This is a valid point.

Matthew 24:40-42

“Then there will be two men in the field; one will be taken and one will be left.
“Two women will be grinding at the mill; one will be taken and one will be left.
“Therefore be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

What Jesus is prophesying about in Matthew 24:37-44, is the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath; the Sixth Seal event, the world changer before all the other prophesies from Rev 7:1 to Rev 19:11 take place.
It WILL be; as in the days of Noah..... exactly how we are today.

This prophecy bears no relation to how the world will be when Jesus Returns. An event that anyone with a Bible knows will happen exactly 1260 days after the Temple is desecrated. Revelation 12 & 13

 

[Randy Kluth]

Well they are the rules to understand Greek grammar and we in English follow those same rules. sorry but that is just the way it is!

I don't for a single moment believe that Greek grammar has the same rules as English grammar! You think there is a universal grammatical blueprint somewhere?

Actually I go those rules from onlione greek grammar sites that you can google if you wish. Otherwise I consider you just talking out of your hat!

I don't claim to be a Greek scholar, but you indicate little knowledge of the language.

Well YOUR interpretation may be a matter of common sense, but it is not biblical sense!

We don't share that opinion. And you've provided no real evidence that it's true.

Well I am speaking of te 3 not 2 questions the Apostles asked Jesus! And the words teh apostles used were inspired by god HImself. It is His Word not theirs.

The 2 or 3 questions asked the same things. They were the author's preferred way of representing the gist of what Jesus actually said. If I say, someone shouted "fire," they may have actually shouted "the barn's on fire," but it is still accurate to say that someone shouted "fire."

Well as Jesus full well knew that His second coming would not occur with that generation, the sign of resurrection for that generation is badly misapplied. For Jesus showed that sign 3 times after He said that!

Jesus referred to 2 events--not just 1 event. He was speaking primarily of the fall of the temple. But he was asked how this relates to the coming Kingdom of God to Israel. They wanted to know when these things would take place. Jesus said eschatological truths were not something to be predicted, time wise--this is up to the Father to determine times and seasons. It is our job to deal with today.

But the time of the fall of the temple was critical to Jesus' disciples, and they were told to expect judgment upon Israel in their own time and generation. To know this they could escape judgment that was meant for unbelievers, but not for them. It did not mean they could escape persecution and other various tribulations. It just meant that they could escape this particular judgment. We see that same promise given to the church at Philadelphia in the book of Revelation.

YOu don't even know what signs that unbelieving generation was asking for in its context then. But Jesus gave specific signs as to His second coming! So we could know the times and seasons as Jesus said!

We do know what signs the unbelievers in Israel were looking for. But they were not given what they wanted. They wanted signs just like many Futurist Christians today want. But they were told simply to live righteous lives, to repent from any sins, and they will be prepared for Christ's Kingdom regardless.

In Acts the apostles were told they are not to be concerned with times and seasons. I'll leave it at that.

And who exactly revealed to this Mr. Ladd, exactly what John was using? did He have a sit down with the apostle? did Jesus appear to HIm and showed him what John was doing?

Ladd is a very distinguished NT theologian, and an expert in biblical eschatology, though he is now deceased. He is one of the foremost proponents of the Postrib, Premil position. Whether you agree with him or not, he was very fair in representing the various positions others held. I personally think it is non-controversial to recognize use of the prolepsis in the book of Revelation or in biblical prophecy, particularly in apocalyptic literature.

That is pretty impressive for a semi literate fisherman turned apostle who probably hadn't even mastered His own native Hebrew, never mind the nuanced forms of Greek speech!

And I never said that REv. 20 is avision of the church in Johns day or even in our day! But n the day right before Jesus physically comes back to earth in His Second Coming!

I have no idea what you're talking about?