Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers. (Pastors/Bishops) ….. Preachers

[101G]

Can you provide references to support this from the Bible?

John 13
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.



The word rule is from Hebrew Mashal meaning
to rule, have dominion, reign

To understand this:
Ephesians 5
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Husband has to love his wife whereas the wife has to submit to her Husband. From the wife's perspective, she is still under the dominion of her Husband, though the Husband is not her ruler but is there as one to love her.

To understand the above:
1 Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Eph 5:23 and 1 Corinth 11:3, tell us that a wife is under the authority of her Husband, provided the Husband is under the authority of Christ. This cannot be disputed.

How can you say that a Pastor has authority over the members of the Church. It should be only Christ and cannot be shared by a Pastor!

GINOLJC, you're 100% correct. Leaders are to LEAD, meaning the first to serve. not do as I say. we have lost this concept of Christ. scripture, Luke 12:35-39 "Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning; 36 "And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately. 37 "Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. 38 "And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 "And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through".

but here is the conclusion: Matthew 20:28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many". here the word "minister" means to serve. it's the Greek word G1247 διακονέω diakoneo (d̮iy-a-ko-ne'-ō) v.

This is the same word use of the 7 at acts chapter 6 who served tables. so I guess we can "DEACON" Jesus?.

Good eye on that prashanthd. in order to submit one get permission from the submit-er... . yes just like in a marriage.

now as for the HEAD, notice no name was used?, only titles... . see the head of "EVERY" man is Christ, for Christ is our source, or head. and the Head of the Woman, not "EVERY" woman, but the woman, here, wife is the man, or her HUSBAND. and the source of Christ, NOT Jesus but Christ is the Spirit/God.

it's one thing to note in the Eph 5 husband and wife scriptures. it never commands the wife to Love here husband, but the Husband to Love his wife. now outside the common command of Love ye one another, it's not there. but yet to "reverence" her husband.

you know, when one really get into the word of God, all those ..... "Things" ... we learned are really not adding up to what we was taught.

I thank God for "SOME" forums, and I'll leave that there.

PCY.

 

[101G]

The anointing is the Teacher...not a person..anyone, even a 12 years old can have and anointed word in his/her mouth.
It is the Good Shepherds Voice which the sheep hear not any man or woman's. Whenever anyone in leadership stand up on their hind legs...if they open their mouth and the Life or anointing comes out..praise God. If after five mins it is not happening...then have the wisdom to do us all a favour and sit down!!

First thanks for your response. AG, you're amazing. this is true, it is our Father, the Spirit, who speak in us. no preacher, teacher, prophet, or any who calls themselves leader in the church, can speak on their own, only what the Lord Jesus puts in their mouth. if a preacher, teacher, or pastor, or whatever speak without Jesus then they are speaking on their own. and this is the problem. men and women crept in unaware. gathering to themselves itching ears to hear.

But for me, I have FAITH in God. he's in control. and i hope something what someone post in this topice might help or wake up someone while reading all the post.

May God bless. keep up the good work sister.

 

[101G]

imho the only ones qualified to preach and teach etc will be found at Matt.16:18 or Mk.16:18 etc - twinc

First thanks for the response. True, only God, the Lord Jesus can reveal himself to us. not a man.
and I like the verse above Mark 16:18, Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues".

not getting too far off subject. that verse you quoted, Mark 16:18 For me, these "serpents" here are not the natural one, that crawl on the belly. the verse said, "Take up", not "pick up" serpent. now I will take up, or have POWER over a serpent the two legged kind, because of who is in me. the take up to me is the over powering of these old serpents. supportive scripture, Luke 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you". this is a direct parallel of Mark 16:18. so those who pick up natural serpents up there in the mountains of the Ozarks is nothing but foolishness, in my opinion. I'm standing with what the Lord Jesus makes clear.

again this is just another example of interpreting scripture, or as the bible say opposite, "WRONGLY" dividing the word of truth. do you know how many live could have been saved. but the scriptures are true, Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children".

Let me say this also. Good hermeneutics never allow one to interpret the word of God, the bible. NO, Good hermeneutics allow the reader, you and I of the Bile to "Discover" what the intent of the writer, (God, who inspire), is. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation".

PCY.

 

[twinc]

The anointing is the Teacher...not a person..anyone, even a 12 years old can have and anointed word in his/her mouth.
It is the Good Shepherds Voice which the sheep hear not any man or woman's. Whenever anyone in leadership stand up on their hind legs...if they open their mouth and the Life or anointing comes out..praise God. If after five mins it is not happening...then have the wisdom to do us all a favour and sit down!!

repeat imho - the only ones anointed or qualified to preach and/or teach are those who qualify either via Matt 16:18 or Mk 16:18 - twinc

 

[twinc]

First thanks for the response. True, only God, the Lord Jesus can reveal himself to us. not a man.
and I like the verse above Mark 16:18, Mark 16:17 "And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues".

not getting too far off subject. that verse you quoted, Mark 16:18 For me, these "serpents" here are not the natural one, that crawl on the belly. the verse said, "Take up", not "pick up" serpent. now I will take up, or have POWER over a serpent the two legged kind, because of who is in me. the take up to me is the over powering of these old serpents. supportive scripture, Luke 10:19 "Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you". this is a direct parallel of Mark 16:18. so those who pick up natural serpents up there in the mountains of the Ozarks is nothing but foolishness, in my opinion. I'm standing with what the Lord Jesus makes clear.

again this is just another example of interpreting scripture, or as the bible say opposite, "WRONGLY" dividing the word of truth. do you know how many live could have been saved. but the scriptures are true, Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children".

Let me say this also. Good hermeneutics never allow one to interpret the word of God, the bible. NO, Good hermeneutics allow the reader, you and I of the Bile to "Discover" what the intent of the writer, (God, who inspire), is. 2 Peter 1:20 "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation".

PCY.

it seems you forgot about Matt 16:18 and the poison in Mk 16:18 - twinc

 

[101G]

it seems you forgot about Matt 16:18 and the poison in Mk 16:18 - twinc

First thanks for the response. second, no, I believe you missed that Matt 16:18. but for the poison, it speak of people not animals. Romans 3:10-17 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 "Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 "And the way of peace have they not known: 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes". what is this poison? This is taken literally from the Septuagint of Ps 140:3. a world of evil, mischief signified by poison. read your commentary on the scripture it will help you or just read James chapter 3 about that tongue. understand, evil people are called "serpents". Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?". understand NOW?.

PCY.

 

[twinc]

First thanks for the response. second, no, I believe you missed that Matt 16:18. but for the poison, it speak of people not animals. Romans 3:10-17 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 "They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. 13 "Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood: 16 "Destruction and misery are in their ways: 17 "And the way of peace have they not known: 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes". what is this poison? This is taken literally from the Septuagint of Ps 140:3. a world of evil, mischief signified by poison. read your commentary on the scripture it will help you or just read James chapter 3 about that tongue. understand, evil people are called "serpents". Matthew 23:33 "Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?". understand NOW?.

PCY.

no not at all - the literal and obvious must be accepted imho - twinc

 

[101G]

no not at all - the literal and obvious must be accepted imho - twinc

sure, everyone have an opinion, and I honor your opinion, but the truth of the scriptures are not changing. but if you want to go out an pick up serpents that crawl on the belly with a fork tongue, and are scally .... Go ahead, help yourself, it a free world. at least part ways.... .

PCY.

 

[twinc]

sure, everyone have an opinion, and I honor your opinion, but the truth of the scriptures are not changing. but if you want to go out an pick up serpents that crawl on the belly with a fork tongue, and are scally .... Go ahead, help yourself, it a free world. at least part ways.... .

PCY.

if only those who claim to be inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit or on speaking terms with God did this to prove their special anointing/authorisation etc - twinc

 

[101G]

if only those who claim to be inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit or on speaking terms with God did this to prove their special anointing/authorisation etc - twinc

I said I honor, not respected your opinion...... . and as stated, "the Scripture don't change".

PCY.

 

[FHII]

Can you provide references to support this from the Bible?

Eph 11- 13
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

The term "pastor" is used once in the NT... Eph 4:11. I am going to do something that I generally don't do and thats refer to Strong's greek dictionary.

The word for pastor is poimen, which literally translates to shepherd. The definition of a shepherd is: a feeder, protector and ruler of a flock of men.

Husband has to love his wife whereas the wife has to submit to her Husband. From the wife's perspective, she is still under the dominion of her Husband, though the Husband is not her ruler but is there as one to love her.

1. She must submit herself to her husband as unto the Lord.
2. The husband is her head in the same manner as Christ is head of the Church.
3. The wife is supposed to subject unto her husband in everything in the same manner as the Church is subect unto Christ.

And you are really going to tell me the husband is not her ruler? this chapter is showing parallels between Christ and the Chuch and the husband and wife. If you are correct... The Christ doesn't rule the Church either.

How can you say that a Pastor has authority over the members of the Church. It should be only Christ and cannot be shared by a Pastor!

Christ gave us pastors to rule His (Christ's) flock. It is Chrit's flock and the authority is Christ through the Pastor. It isn't shared.

A true Man of God in any capacity will always acknowledge this. He will always look to do God's will. If he isn't doing it the Bible way and isn't annointed by the Holy Spirit, by all means he shouldn't be followed.

But IF he is annointed by the spirit and it is the spirit himself speaking through the Man of God -- and you don't submit to his words -- you are disobeying the spirit.

 

[prashanthd]

Eph 11- 13
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; [12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: [13] Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The term "pastor" is used once in the NT... Eph 4:11. I am going to do something that I generally don't do and thats refer to Strong's greek dictionary.
The word for pastor is poimen, which literally translates to shepherd. The definition of a shepherd is: a feeder, protector and ruler of a flock of men.

In sumnary:
1. Jesus has appointed pastors as indivuals rulers of his flock.

Can you provide references to support this from the Bible?
John 13
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

How can you say that a Pastor has authority over the members of the Church. It should be only Christ and cannot be shared by a Pastor!

Requested for references to prove that pastor can rule over the members of the church.

The greek word Poimen means shepherd or a Head. The Bible shows the role of a shepherd as the one who keeps his sheep (Ps 23, 121:8). Psalm 23 does not reflect the idea of God ruling over his sheep as a shepherd. Ex: "he leadeth me", "for his name's sake", "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me","dwell in the house of the LORD"

When I attend any church I always see that the Pastors are near the alter and appear as if they have the authority over the church. They do not reflect the disposition as in John 13:14

So I need to know and I continue my request to please show me the references from the Bible which clearly says that Pastors(as in shepherds) can rule over the members of the Church.

Busy life here brother, I cannot respond to the rest of your post at this time! Husband cannot be compared to a Pastor. Husband was compared to Christ only in the perspective of comparing family and church. Christ has a much larger role on the whole. I can respond to this later.

God bless you.

All glory to God.

 

[FHII]

Requested for references to prove that pastor can rule over the members of the church.

Well like I told 101G when he did the same thing: I never said "rule over". I said, "ruler of". Its right there in the strong's greek definition which I provided earlier.

Husband cannot be compared to a Pastor. Husband was compared to Christ only in the perspective of comparing family and church. Christ has a much larger role on the whole. I can respond to this later.

Then why did you bring it up?

 

[FHII]

When I attend any church I always see that the Pastors are near the alter and appear as if they have the authority over the church. They do not reflect the disposition as in John 13:1

What would you have them do to reflect such a disposition?

 

[mjrhealth]

if only those who claim to be inspired/guided by the Holy Spirit or on speaking terms with God did this to prove their special anointing/authorisation etc - twinc

Nothing stopping you from talking to God except unbelief. You simply dont believe you can and so shut the door on God. Your doing not His.

1Jn_2:27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

God will talk to any one willing to listen , just few are willing. Blind and deaf.

 

[101G]

The term "pastor" is used once in the NT... Eph 4:11. I am going to do something that I generally don't do and thats refer to Strong's greek dictionary.

The word for pastor is poimen, which literally translates to shepherd. The definition of a shepherd is: a feeder, protector and ruler of a flock of men.

GINOLJC, first thanks for your response. after reading the definition, you're still not getting it. the shepherd "OWN" the sheep. so do you "OWN" any member of the body of Christ? answer NO. so you're not the shepherd, you're only the hireling. listen, John 10:11-13 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 "The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep".

Understand FHII, U, me or anyone else, don't "OWN" any sheep. I suggest you read verse 12 again.

Look, even the one U call Pastor have been "bought" with a price. we all are of "his" pastor. listen to Peter the apostle, 1 Peter 5:2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

see FHII, the word "lord" there in verse 3 is
G2634 κατακυριεύω katakurieuo (ka-ta-kï-riy-ev'-ō) v.
to lord against, i.e. control, subjugate.
[from G2596 and G2961]
KJV: exercise dominion over (lordship), be lord over, overcome

understand the word "subjugate"? in definition #2. it means to bring under domination or control, especially by conquest.

the apostle peter said "NO" don't do that.

and this is what most men have done, the opposite what the Lord Jesus say do.

I hope you will read this in earnest.

as a song writer said once who was a pastor of a local congregation. he was out of town and got some bad news. a whole family was killed in a car accident. and the Pastor prayed to God and said why you took some of "HIS" best members. and God reminded "him" that they was not "his", the pastor member, but "MY", members. and God can call anyone of "HIS", member home to him when "HE", God wants to, because he OWNS every sheep. he blood bought them with his own blood. Acts 20:28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood".

scripture don't lie. you, me, we, OWN NO sheep.

PCY.

 

[FHII]

GINOLJC, first thanks for your response. after reading the definition, you're still not getting it. the shepherd "OWN" the sheep. so do you "OWN" any member of the body of Christ? answer NO. so you're not the shepherd, you're only the hireling. listen, John 10:11-13 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 "The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep".

No 101G. The shepherd doesn't own the sheep. Not always. David cared for Jesse's sheep. Jacob for Laban's and Moses for Jethro's. They were all shepherds but did not own the sheep.

I see what John 10 says, but so what? In John 10 Jesus owned the sheep and speaks of the hireling which ran from danger. God himself came to earth and took charge of the sheep. But he left and put other men in charge. That is what I do get and you do not. I absolutely know that the flock is Jesus'. I also know that he left men of flesh and blood (led by the Spirit) in charge of his sheep.

Look, even the one U call Pastor have been "bought" with a price. we all are of "his" pastor. listen to Peter the apostle, 1 Peter 5:2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind; 3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.

You should look into the proper context of this. First of all, I have already demonstrated that the Pastor doesn't own the sheep. so yes, everything here lines up perfectly with what I have said. Second, you should have a look at what the literal greek says in verse 5:3/ It literally translates to, "not as exercising lordship those in your charge, but examples being to the flock."

So nothing in this verse disagrees with what I have said.

 

[101G]

No 101G. The shepherd doesn't own the sheep. Not always. David cared for Jesse's sheep. Jacob for Laban's and Moses for Jethro's. They were all shepherds but did not own the sheep.

I see what John 10 says, but so what? In John 10 Jesus owned the sheep and speaks of the hireling which ran from danger. God himself came to earth and took charge of the sheep. But he left and put other men in charge. That is what I do get and you do not. I absolutely know that the flock is Jesus'. I also know that he left men of flesh and blood (led by the Spirit) in charge of his sheep.



You should look into the proper context of this. First of all, I have already demonstrated that the Pastor doesn't own the sheep. so yes, everything here lines up perfectly with what I have said. Second, you should have a look at what the literal greek says in verse 5:3/ It literally translates to, "not as exercising lordship those in your charge, but examples being to the flock."

So nothing in this verse disagrees with what I have said.

I was going to reply to this but sometimes you have to let the scriptures, the one who truly speak give us the account.1 Corinthians 3:4-6 "For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I am of Apollos; are ye not carnal? 5 "Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? 6 "I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase".

so i'll just plant.

PCY.

 

[FHII]

I was going to reply to this but sometimes you have to let the scriptures, the one who truly speak give us the account.

PCY.

Good! I would appreciate you doing so.

 

[FHII]

The greek word Poimen means shepherd or a Head. The Bible shows the role of a shepherd as the one who keeps his sheep (Ps 23, 121:8). Psalm 23 does not reflect the idea of God ruling over his sheep as a shepherd. Ex: "he leadeth me", "for his name's sake", "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me","dwell in the house of the LORD"

I meant to ask you about this... Can you expound? Are you saying God doesn't rule over his sheep? I'd love to hear more about that.