Apostles, Prophets, and Teachers. (Pastors/Bishops) ….. Preachers

[101G]

The gifted one is "Christ in you," we become swallowed up by Christ as His life who is our only life, Gal.2:20, becomes all we are.
We have no life of our own, only one life, Christ in you the hope of glory.
"He that hath the Son hath life."

Thanks soul man you hit the nail on the head.

PCY.

 

[101G]

It works on two scales just as it did in Paul's day: 1. Until all Christians are perfected (and again, Eph 4:13 explains that) around the world; and 2. For those who attend a Church at the local level. And I dare say the latter is the more practical application.

Paul was addressing the Church at Ephesus. But he was also working with other Churches at the time. So the ministry given is in place until the last Saint is brought in. So if you are looking for an ending to the ministry it probably isn't going to happen soon.

see FHII this is the problem. this GOSPEL is taken around the world, how? by men and women, the hands and feet of God. first scripture, Revelation 10:1 & 2 "And I saw another mighty angel come down from heaven, clothed with a cloud: and a rainbow was upon his head, and his face was as it were the sun, and his feet as pillars of fire: 2 "And he had in his hand a little book open: and he set his right foot upon the sea, and his left foot on the earth". a book open, and on foot on the sea, and one on land. the open book is the gospel. and the one who feet is on land and sea is the the Holy Spirit, Jesus God almighty. Land and sea is how the gospel is to God. and here's the revelation, this Gospel is carried by men and women, who have the Holy Ghost in them. this was foretold by God himself. Jeremiah 31:31-34 "Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: 32 "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: 33 "But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people 34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more".

God will teach them, and is he doing it today?, yes, 1 Corinthians 2:12 "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 "But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 "For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ".

Conclusion, verse 14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned".
NOW, here come the role of "THE" pastor. to spiritually discerned, one need a. a word of WISDOM, which is UNDERSTANDING, and KNOWLEDGE. both are listed in the list at 1 Corinthians 12:8. see the Pastor now?. it not you or i but the Lord the Spirit in us.

PCY

 

[101G]

Ecclesiastes 12
12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.

Greeting, I read all of your post and it was on point, thank you. I would like to zero in on these two point you quoted from Ecclesiastes 12, and at the end of your post, which I responded to below.
Ecclesiastes 12:12 "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh. 13 "Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 "For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil".

now this scripture, Hosea 4:6 "My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children".

this is a bad place to be in, rejected of God. but the lack of knowledge is the ROOT of all misunderstanding, most of the time.

Now considering the circumstances these days what you think is the role of a Pastor and what is an alternative if this role is not fulfilled? Do you think that the role of Pastors is more demanding today when compared to what it was earlier? How flexible is their role in guiding or meeting the requirements of the congregation?
Please take an extra mile along with the Word of God

I like it when someone say "Consider". that catches my attention. this is just what I been saying all along. why is it the pastor must meet the requirements of the congregation when his role is set forth in scripture. see, this is what I was saying about local congregation, setting duties of a local pastor, when the bible is clear as to their role is.

Many churches today are waking up to this truth. they have establish committees to carry out the day to day operation of the church in today's societies. this is called "GOVERNMENT" in the church, scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". many christian have not even heard of such a thing. why because of men traditions. as the Lord Jesus said, Matthew 15:8 "This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me. 9 "But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men".

what an indictment.

Conclusion: let's put away, or as the poster here, our brother prashanthd said "CONSIDER" what these roles, or deeds, or works are for. and who do the WORK.

Next time the Bishop, I hope.

PCY

 

[FHII]

don't take this the wrong way, but do you understand what MINISTRY means? TO "SERVE". this is another problem, people think that ministry means to LEAD, take charge, that's not the case always.

I am going to start with this first because its pretty easy. What do you think leaders do if they don't serve? In this case a Church leader is serving the Lord by leading the flock and is serving the flock by leading them in the ways of the Lord.

you still didn't get is right. the GIFT are in men, understand now?. you me nor any man or woman is the Gift, and you don't have the gift for yourself. to used as you please, as he please, which is his will and his purpose and Grace.

Please read Eph 4:8-11. Verses 9 and 10 are a sidenote to what is being said. That's why they are in parentheses. They don't interrupt the flow of the thought. Properly read, these verses read, "He.....gave gift unto men. And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists..."
So I see problems with your theory any way we look at it. If you want to say the gift is in men, then clearly he didn't give the gift to everyone. He gave the gift to apostles, but not all are apostles. This is clearly shown in 1 Cor 12:29. In short the gifts are not in all men.

The other problem is that the verses I gave actually DO say that the men are the gift. He gave some men a gift which is an apostle. Others gave prophets. Some got the gift of an evangelist, and so forth.

Read it again. He gave gifts unto men. Some he gave apostles; and some he gave prophets....

 

[101G]

I am going to start with this first because its pretty easy. What do you think leaders do if they don't serve? In this case a Church leader is serving the Lord by leading the flock and is serving the flock by leading them in the ways of the Lord.

thanks for the response, you're still missing the point. leadership is first to serve. you can be a cook and be the leader, as the first to serve. Jesus leads his church. get out of that congregational thinking. everybody have a gift in the Church. the pastor feed with knowledge, and understanding, NOT HIS or HER knowledge, and understanding but that of the Lord Jesus.

Please read Eph 4:8-11. Verses 9 and 10 are a sidenote to what is being said. That's why they are in parentheses. They don't interrupt the flow of the thought. Properly read, these verses read, "He.....gave gift unto men. And he gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists..."

se, you'er still overlooking the GIFT. NOW, may I ask you a simple question, "WHO" is the Gift. this is what I been saying all along. now who is the GIFT". let the bible answer, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". the promise is the HOLY GHOST in us. HE is the GIFT.

now if toy think you have the gift on your own, turn some water into wine....... U, YOU can't do it. or just RAISE one dead on your own...... well. ain't happening.

 

[101G]

I wanted to put this separate

So I see problems with your theory any way we look at it. If you want to say the gift is in men, then clearly he didn't give the gift to everyone. He gave the gift to apostles, but not all are apostles. This is clearly shown in 1 Cor 12:29. In short the gifts are not in all men.

I see your problem. did you not read Joel 2:28 and 29. I guess not, let read it, Joel 2:28 & 29 "And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29 "And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit" and again the apostle Peter made it very clear who get God, the Holy Spirit. listen, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". did you not see the calling, 2 Timothy 1:9 "Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began".

see we all have gifts, listen, Romans 12:4 "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 "Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 "Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness".

see one HAVE a gift by having the one who is the GIFT.

 

[FHII]

se, you'er still overlooking the GIFT. NOW, may I ask you a simple question, "WHO" is the Gift. this is what I been saying all along. now who is the GIFT". let the bible answer, Acts 2:39 "For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call". the promise is the HOLY GHOST in us. HE is the GIFT.

I am not missing the point; I am flat out disagreeing with you. The HG is a gift. Jesus is a gift. But that is not what Eph 4 is talking about. Jesus gave gifts... Plural. He didn't give a gift (singular). He gave gifts. The Holy Ghost is one thing and is a gift (not gifts) but it isn't the gifts spoken of in Eph 4:8.
4:8 verse 7 there is a gift (singular) and that gift was Christ. He then gave gifts. Those gifts were apostles, prophets, evangeliats, pastors and teachers. That's how it reads and that's what it means. If the Holy Ghost is the gifts in eph 4:8 then you have to tell me why there is more than one Holy Ghost.

now if toy think you have the gift on your own, turn some water into wine....... U, YOU can't do it. or just RAISE one dead on your own...... well. ain't happening.

Totally nonsensical. I do have the gift of the Holy Ghost. But that gift is the spirit of truth. And I am demonstrating the power of that gift right now. The Holy Gost was never given to turn water into wine or raise the ddeadin a literal sense.

 

[FHII]

see we all have gifts, listen, Romans 12:4 "For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: 5 "So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another. 6 "Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith; 7 "Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth, on teaching; 8 "Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness".

see one HAVE a gift by having the one who is the GIFT.

Great. We all have a gift. I don't disagree. But we still are not called to be pastors. You even quoted the verse that says we have different gifts.

All true Christians have the gift of the Holy Ghost (the comforter and spirit of truth). PRAISE GOD! HALLELUJAH! Now does that make us all Pastors? No.

Now if that's not what you are saying then perhaps you can make your point in a simple statement. A sentence or two... Because I suspect your whole position is trying to lead to a conclusion that we are all pastors and don't need to go to Church.

If so I disagree.

 

[101G]

All true Christians have the gift of the Holy Ghost (the comforter and spirit of truth). PRAISE GOD! HALLELUJAH! Now does that make us all Pastors? No

First thanks for the reply. But man how hard is it for you to understand. did i say having the Holy Ghost makes everyone pastors? apparently you haven't been reading my post.

to me it seem like you have a perceived notion already made up in your mind. for here is the evidence. when reading Eph 4 if he gave some apostles, some pastor and teachers then just from the verse itself you must not be understand the verse you're giving.

but look don't worry if you don't understand don't sweat it, ok. but I ask did you see the pastoral gift listed in 1 Cor chapter 12?.

Now, by having Jesus, the Holy Spirit in us, to do the work of reconciling, and edifying, ect... we are holy, meaning set apart for his used. now if it in helps, or miracles, or healings, or Government, or helps whatever the Lord work through you then it is the fruit that our Father harvest.

but if you cannot understand this, leave it alone for a while.
PCY.

 

[FHII]

to me it seem like you have a perceived notion already made up in your mind. for here is the evidence. when reading Eph 4 if he gave some apostles, some pastor and teachers then just from the verse itself you must not be understand the verse you're giving.

Well.. I have explained it. You have not. All you did was state I didn't understand it. Once again, he gave gifts. Not a gift.

but look don't worry if you don't understand don't sweat it, ok. but I ask did you see the pastoral gift listed in 1 Cor chapter 12?.

Sure I do. Now where are you going with this? I understan Eph 4. I understand 1 Cor 12. Where you are going with it I don't understand because both those chapters clearly note that not all are called to be pastors.

Now, by having Jesus, the Holy Spirit in us, to do the work of reconciling, and edifying, ect... we are holy, meaning set apart for his used. now if it in helps, or miracles, or healings, or Government, or helps whatever the Lord work through you then it is the fruit that our Father harvest.

Fine. Again where are you going qith this?

 

[101G]

Well.. I have explained it. You have not. All you did was state I didn't understand it. Once again, he gave gifts. Not a gift.

First thanks for the response. see FHII, you complain about you have explained it, but you must not be reading. ONE Spirit many gifts, 1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will". understand now?.

Sure I do. Now where are you going with this? I understan Eph 4. I understand 1 Cor 12. Where you are going with it I don't understand because both those chapters clearly note that not all are called to be pastors.

again did ypu not read the OP?.

before we go any further read the OP again, ok.

PCY.

 

[101G]

GINOLJC, to all
Knowing what we know now, the Pastor role is not an OFFICE. but a WOK/DEED performed by God, the Lord Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the ONLY TRUE GOD. as the apostle Paul said, Romans 12:1 "I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service". THIS IS OUR SERVICE, One need to read that verse again, and again. this is the "SERVICE" WE PROVIDE.

Now touching on the term "OFFICE". in the Hebrew language there is no concept or term of what we in the west consider an office. it' a deed or a ministry, or a help, as in diakonia is translated, YES, the word we used "deacon". Sometimes, it refers to the specific kind to help any people in need. In the Old Testament the word is often used in periphrastic renderings, e.g. "minister .... in the priest's office,". LIKE our Sister Phebe, yes the priest's office/work/deed, literally, act as priest (Ex 28:1, etc.). my sources to office and both sources, W.E. Vines Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words and the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia.

Now, remember the term "helps" in ministry, ordaining or setting in the church in 1 Corinthians 12:28 "And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues". here, the gift of helps many Christian didn't even have a clue what it meant. reason they didn't know that this is also an ORDAINED position "SET" in the church by God. the word "set" here is the Greek word,
G5087 τίθημι tithemi (tiy'-thee-miy) v.
θέω theo (the'-ō) [an alternate in certain tenses]
1. to place.
2. (properly) to lay in a passive or horizontal posture.
the KJV can translate this word as appoint, make, ordain, purpose. and there are many places in the bible where these words are used about the ministries. now, knowing this, many women was "ORDAINED" in God Church. some congregation, not all forbid the ordaining of women, well one better read 1 Corinthians 12:28 again for a surety women was prophets, so many other thing that the average just don't know about. example our sister Priscilla was a bishop as well as her husband. how many Christian knew that?. not many.

Now, touching on the GIFT Pastor. it is listed as the very first gift on the list here in 1 Corinthians 12 at VERSE 8, but we will start at verse 7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal. 8 "For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit". here is the Pastoral Gift. a word of Wisdom, not Wisdom itself, but a "word" of Wisdom gives "UNDERSTANDING". and by the same spirit "KNOWLEDGE". where have we seen these two words before, Knowledge and Understanding? answer, Jeremiah 3:15 "And I will give you pastors according to mine heart, which shall feed you with knowledge and understanding". there you have it, the pastor who is GIVEN, and who is that? the LORD JESUS, who was "GIVEN" on Pentecost. because the GITS are Spiritual.

that's why in John 14, when Judas asked, not Iscariot, said this, John 14:22 "Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?". he asked JESUS how would He, "manifest thyself unto us", not APPEAR which is yet to happen, (Rev 1:7) but manifest himself to them and NOT the world. here's how JESUS, the comforter, the Holy Spirit manifest himself to them. scripture, 1 Corinthians 12:7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal". that's hoe the Lord JESUS manifested himself, IN THE "SPIRITUAL GIFTS", which the apostle Paul listed starting with verse 8 which is the Pastoral GIFT. man oh man how small the bible get now in knowledge when one knows the truth. the next step is only if one believes.

Now touching on this outpouring of the GIFTS. as the scriptures states, before some of them standing, fall asleep, (see Matthew 16:28 and Mark 9:1). this was fulfilled on Pentecost. so all gifts are IN, IN, IN, Christ Jesus. so are you a BRANCH, meaning a LIVING branch, for dead... workers, who don't want to present (themselves) their bodies (hands, and feet) a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service is "withered"; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned". read John 15. ye have sheep (Green Branches), and Goats (Withered Branches).

to get the full meat of this post i suggest one read it again.

Maybe next time we will get to the Bishop, hopefully.

PCY.

 

[FHII]

I just want to bring out something I have touched on before, but didn't fully expound on. Some recent comments made me look deeper into the roll of a pastor, and there is a key point to be made.

The term "pastor" is used once in the NT... Eph 4:11. I am going to do something that I generally don't do and thats refer to Strong's greek dictionary.

The word for pastor is poimen, which literally translates to shepherd. The definition of a shepherd is: a feeder, protector and ruler of a flock ofmen.

Such requires wisdom, no doubt. Solomon wished for such wisdom to rule Israel. As a feeder (preacher/teacher) he needs both wisdom and knowledge.

That is not the only job of a pastor. He is also a protector. I have touched on this as he is to help memners individually with their day to day problems. He also helps by guarding against harm (which may require a rebuke).

He also is the ruler of the flock. Yes, I know... Jesus is THE shepherd, but he gave that duty to men. There is only one Jesus, but eph 4 mentions "pastors" or "shepherds". Plural.

Is the ruler an "office"? Is it part of the government? I don't see how you wouldn't say it is.it is the HEAD office in the local Church. He will delegate authority to others, but he is the overseer, as the ruler of the flock.

Again, I have said all this before in one way or another. But not as precisely and clearly.

In sumnary:
1. Jesus has appointed pastors as indivuals rulers of his flock.
2. The job of the pastor is to feed, protect and be the overseer or ruler of the congregation.
3. It is an office.
4. It is a gift (as eph 4 and Jer 3:15... "I will give you pastors...)

 

[mjrhealth]

1. Jesus has appointed pastors as indivuals rulers of his flock.

Never did, go read teh bible, all Jesus ever did was call men to Himself, everytime.

 

[101G]

I just want to bring out something I have touched on before, but didn't fully expound on. Some recent comments made me look deeper into the roll of a pastor, and there is a key point to be made.

The term "pastor" is used once in the NT... Eph 4:11. I am going to do something that I generally don't do and thats refer to Strong's greek dictionary.

The word for pastor is poimen, which literally translates to shepherd. The definition of a shepherd is: a feeder, protector and ruler of a flock ofmen.

Such requires wisdom, no doubt. Solomon wished for such wisdom to rule Israel. As a feeder (preacher/teacher) he needs both wisdom and knowledge.

That is not the only job of a pastor. He is also a protector. I have touched on this as he is to help memners individually with their day to day problems. He also helps by guarding against harm (which may require a rebuke).

He also is the ruler of the flock. Yes, I know... Jesus is THE shepherd, but he gave that duty to men. There is only one Jesus, but eph 4 mentions "pastors" or "shepherds". Plural.

Is the ruler an "office"? Is it part of the government? I don't see how you wouldn't say it is.it is the HEAD office in the local Church. He will delegate authority to others, but he is the overseer, as the ruler of the flock.

Again, I have said all this before in one way or another. But not as precisely and clearly.

In sumnary:
1. Jesus has appointed pastors as indivuals rulers of his flock.
2. The job of the pastor is to feed, protect and be the overseer or ruler of the congregation.
3. It is an office.
4. It is a gift (as eph 4 and Jer 3:15... "I will give you pastors...)

GINOLJC, to all. first thanks for your response. let me address your summary. it might take 4 posts.
#1. The Lord Jesus appointed pastors to RULE "OVER", not "RULE" the flock, BIG difference. understand, you said, "RULE", NO. it's "RULE OVER. what do we mean here. to rule someone is to order them or tell them what to do, be in authority. but having the "RULE OVER" is to be the first to serve. Like the apostle in Eph gave a good example of this as in a Husband and wife, as Christ to the church. but God, the Lord Jesus set this RULING OVER in the beginning, Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". NOT RULE HER, but have the rule "over" her. to rule over someone you need their permission, hence submission. like in a marriage, when one ask for the permission to marry another, and in that asking some obligation are set forth. like the man is to "Protect", "provide", and give "shelter" or "covering" to his wife, and among many other things. all this mean that he will provide these thing for her before she marry, or submit herself to him. he is to provide for her, not boss her around, or tell her what to do, but be in service to her. and get this, if necessary, to lay down his life for her, ... LIKE CHRIST DID FOR HIS CHURCH?.... many husbands don't want to hear that do they. see pastor in Christ have the "RULE OVER" meaning FIRST TO SERVE. let's see this. Luke 22:24-27 "And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest. 25 "And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors. 26 "But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve. 27 "For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth". READ THAT LAST PART OF THE LAST VERSE AGAIN. and the Lord Jesus confirm this servitude again in MINISTRY clearly which means to serve. Matthew 20:25-28 "But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Ye know that the princes of the Gentiles exercise dominion over them, and they that are great exercise authority upon them. 26 "But it shall not be so among you: but whosoever will be great among you, let him be your minister; 27 "And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: 28 "Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many".

Having the "RULE OVER", it need to be perfectly explain, and we will do it by the scriptures Hebrews 13:5-7 "Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee. 6 "So that we may boldly say, The Lord is my helper, and I will not fear what man shall do unto me. 7 "Remember them which have the rule over you, who have spoken unto you the word of God: whose faith follow, considering the end of their conversation". RULE OVER not RULE. just one more. Hebrews 13:17 "Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: (WHY?) for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, (JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE) that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you".

Now another thing, there is only ONE SHEPHERD in the Church of the Lord Jesus, so what are those one called pastors. well let the bible speak, John 10:11-14 "I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 "But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, (STOP, READ THAT AGAIN). whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 "The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 "I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine".

see, you're an hireling, NOT the shepherd of the church. listen, 1 Peter 5:1 "The elders which are among you I exhort, who am also an elder, and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that shall be revealed: 2 "Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight thereof, not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, (STOP, THAT HIT THE PROSPERITY PREACHERS) but of a ready mind; 3 "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock. (that need to be read again) 4 "And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away. "Likewise, ye younger, submit yourselves unto the elder. Yea, all of you be subject one to another, and be clothed with humility: (why) for God resisteth the proud, and giveth grace to the humble".

NOW TO BE VERY CLEAR AS TO WHO THE "chief Shepherd" is, meaning the one who rules, and leads. scripture, Isaiah 40:10 "Behold, the Lord GOD will come with strong hand, and his arm shall rule for him: behold, his reward is with him, and his work before him. 11 "He shall feed his flock like a shepherd: he shall gather the lambs with his arm, and carry them in his bosom, and shall gently lead those that are with young".
a few thing to note here in Isaiah 40,
1. the Lord God, the "ARM" of God, Jesus the Christ is this "Chief shepherd".
2. AND THIS "arm" SHALL rule. AS THE APOSTLE PETER SAID, "Neither as being lords over God's heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.
3. His "WORK is before him. He shall feed his flock like a shepherd. key words here are "HIS" work, and "HE" shall feed "HIS" flock. not your flock, not my flock but "HIS" flock. the prophet David said it best, "The LORD is my shepherd; I shall not want".

Conclusion, men don't RULE God heritage, but we should be EXAMPLES, as Christ was our EXAMPLE. and it is God, the Lord Jesus in us who pastor, preach, teach, simply feed the flock. as he is in Spirit, he dwells, and MANIFEST himself in the gifts whereas in this case he feeds his flock through men and women.

Hopefully I'll get to the second statement in the next post. "2. The job of the pastor is to feed, protect and be the overseer or ruler of the congregation".

PCY.

 

[FHII]

#1. The Lord Jesus appointed pastors to RULE "OVER", not "RULE" the flock, BIG difference. understand, you said, "RULE", NO. it's "RULE OVER.

I am sorry, but you have wasted your time. I did not say "rule". I said "ruler of..." which is exactly what the strong's Greek definition says.

Strong's Greek: 4166. ποιμήν (poimén) -- a shepherd

Definition: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men.

 

[101G]

I am sorry, but you have wasted your time. I did not say "rule". I said "ruler of..." which is exactly what the strong's Greek definition says.

Strong's Greek: 4166. ποιμήν (poimén) -- a shepherd

Definition: a shepherd; hence met: of the feeder, protector, and ruler of a flock of men.

ONE word to you, follow the Spirit, and not the flesh.

one rule to learn, and only one, about the Shepard. he owns the sheep. the hireling is a sheep tender, not chicken tenders, but sheep tenders..... . Like the apostle Paul, 2 Corinthians 11:1 "Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me". hey one got to have a sense of humor sometimes.

2. The job of the pastor is to feed, protect and be the overseer or ruler of the congregation.

I agree with you in the following which is at the end. so don't go an look, read all to the end. and remember we're discussing, no matter if we agree or not. ok.... :cool:.

Now we're at the "overseer", the BISHOP, the Pastor, the teacher, the prophet, the apostle, the evangelist.. .which are Elders. and they feed the flock of God by the Spirit, not their OWN knowledge or understanding. but God's knowledge and understanding. scripture, Acts 20:27-30 "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 "Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them". what an indictment. men within the flock itself arising speaking perverse things. grievous wolves coming in and men who will have itching ears. teachers, who are pastors, draw away disciples after them. If VJ you're reading this, here is your, "STRONG DELUSION".

yes, teacher, who have the pastoral gift. scripture, 1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach". see the term OVERSEER" is the same as Bishop, , teacher, prophet, and Apostle. Peter who was an apostle, was an Elder also. who had the Pastoral GIFT (1 Cor 12:8).

and since we're on RULE, as a job, as the poster said. women RULE over as well as men. so let's get this big taboo out, and in front for all to see. yes, women are bishops too. we have two outstanding women who was bishops. our sister Phebe, and our sister Priscilla. yes, our sister Phebe who was the first pastor, bishop in Rome. and as a matter of fact the apostle Paul sent with her a transition team to Rome. Now what do transition mean: the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another. remember the letter that our sister Phebe carried with her to Rome was a building block letter to the CHURCH which the apostle by our sister Phebe establish there. remember Paul greet them as saint in Rome, not as a church yet in Rome, (see 1:7). christian was there, but needed the pastor, the bishop. and following our Lord he didn't sent a woman alone there,as said sent a transition team with here there. and we have the record, or the Letter to this event, Romans chapter 16.

so the job, as some say, is to "VISIT". the overseer is the bishop, the pastor, the preacher, the teacher at the local congregation.

for enjoyable reading. our sister Priscilla title as a bishop can be found in chapter 16, of Romans verse 3

3. It is an office

we we can understand it. but it is a work of the Lord.

4. It is a gift (as eph 4 and Jer 3:15... "I will give you pastors...)

one word, AMEN. by George I think he got it...... (smile). just having fun.

 

[twinc]

ONE word to you, follow the Spirit, and not the flesh.

one rule to learn, and only one, about the Shepard. he owns the sheep. the hireling is a sheep tender, not chicken tenders, but sheep tenders..... . Like the apostle Paul, 2 Corinthians 11:1 "Would to God ye could bear with me a little in my folly: and indeed bear with me". hey one got to have a sense of humor sometimes.


I agree with you in the following which is at the end. so don't go an look, read all to the end. and remember we're discussing, no matter if we agree or not. ok.... :cool:.

Now we're at the "overseer", the BISHOP, the Pastor, the teacher, the prophet, the apostle, the evangelist.. .which are Elders. and they feed the flock of God by the Spirit, not their OWN knowledge or understanding. but God's knowledge and understanding. scripture, Acts 20:27-30 "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God. 28 "Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. 29 "For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. 30 "Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them". what an indictment. men within the flock itself arising speaking perverse things. grievous wolves coming in and men who will have itching ears. teachers, who are pastors, draw away disciples after them. If VJ you're reading this, here is your, "STRONG DELUSION".

yes, teacher, who have the pastoral gift. scripture, 1 Timothy 3:2 "A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach". see the term OVERSEER" is the same as Bishop, , teacher, prophet, and Apostle. Peter who was an apostle, was an Elder also. who had the Pastoral GIFT (1 Cor 12:8).

and since we're on RULE, as a job, as the poster said. women RULE over as well as men. so let's get this big taboo out, and in front for all to see. yes, women are bishops too. we have two outstanding women who was bishops. our sister Phebe, and our sister Priscilla. yes, our sister Phebe who was the first pastor, bishop in Rome. and as a matter of fact the apostle Paul sent with her a transition team to Rome. Now what do transition mean: the process or a period of changing from one state or condition to another. remember the letter that our sister Phebe carried with her to Rome was a building block letter to the CHURCH which the apostle by our sister Phebe establish there. remember Paul greet them as saint in Rome, not as a church yet in Rome, (see 1:7). christian was there, but needed the pastor, the bishop. and following our Lord he didn't sent a woman alone there,as said sent a transition team with here there. and we have the record, or the Letter to this event, Romans chapter 16.

so the job, as some say, is to "VISIT". the overseer is the bishop, the pastor, the preacher, the teacher at the local congregation.

for enjoyable reading. our sister Priscilla title as a bishop can be found in chapter 16, of Romans verse 3

we we can understand it. but it is a work of the Lord.

one word, AMEN. by George I think he got it...... (smile). just having fun.

imho the only ones qualified to preach and teach etc will be found at Matt.16:18 or Mk.16:18 etc - twinc

 

[Helen]

imho the only ones qualified to preach and teach etc will be found at Matt.16:18 or Mk.16:18 etc - twinc

The anointing is the Teacher...not a person..anyone, even a 12 years old can have and anointed word in his/her mouth.
It is the Good Shepherds Voice which the sheep hear not any man or woman's. Whenever anyone in leadership stand up on their hind legs...if they open their mouth and the Life or anointing comes out..praise God. If after five mins it is not happening...then have the wisdom to do us all a favour and sit down!!

 

[prashanthd]

In sumnary:
1. Jesus has appointed pastors as indivuals rulers of his flock.

Can you provide references to support this from the Bible?

John 13
14 If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet.

Genesis 3:16 "Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee". NOT RULE HER, but have the rule "over" her. to rule over someone you need their permission, hence submission. like in a marriage, when one ask for the permission to marry another, and in that asking some obligation are set forth. like the man is to "Protect", "provide", and give "shelter" or "covering" to his wife, and among many other things. all this mean that he will provide these thing for her before she marry, or submit herself to him. he is to provide for her, not boss her around,

The word rule is from Hebrew Mashal meaning
to rule, have dominion, reign

To understand this:
Ephesians 5
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.

Husband has to love his wife whereas the wife has to submit to her Husband. From the wife's perspective, she is still under the dominion of her Husband, though the Husband is not her ruler but is there as one to love her.

To understand the above:
1 Corinthians 11
3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head.
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven.
6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.

Eph 5:23 and 1 Corinth 11:3, tell us that a wife is under the authority of her Husband, provided the Husband is under the authority of Christ. This cannot be disputed.

How can you say that a Pastor has authority over the members of the Church. It should be only Christ and cannot be shared by a Pastor!