Archaeological proof of Christ's AD 70 bodily return

[Nameaboveallnames]

Because that author of Revelation was not John the son of Zebedee, but the "disciple whom Jesus loved", the resurrected Lazarus.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The evidence brought forth is a pile of garbage and isn't worth addressing. Jesus did not return in 70 AD. You can't prove it with scripture, so now you're resorting to archaeology. LOL. Give up the charade already.

More ad hominem debate tactics. I don't offer this archaeological evidence above in place of Scripture, but in support of what Christ already said regarding the timing of His second coming bodily return in the first century. Archaeology just backs that truth up.

 

[3 Resurrections]

We still look forward to His glorious return.

Yes, we certainly do look forward to this for ourselves. I have always maintained this. But it will be a THIRD coming, and not the second, which has already occurred, just as Christ and all the NT writers promised in the Scriptures.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

More ad hominem debate tactics

That's what this nonsense deserves. Scripture does not teach that Jesus would return bodily more than once and He will definitely bodily return in the future, so you're trying to disprove scripture with supposed archaeological evidence, which is foolish.

. I don't offer this archaeological evidence above in place of Scripture, but in support of what Christ already said regarding the timing of His second coming bodily return in the first century. Archaeology just backs that truth up.

No, it does not. You are being foolish with this nonsense.

 

[3 Resurrections]

@Nameaboveallnames, I challenge you to do some research on the difference Scripture puts between John the son of Zebedee and the "disciple whom Jesus loved". They are NOT the same. I am not the only one who has recognized this. Others have noticed and written on the same thing. It is easy to prove from the Scriptures, if you only take a bit of time to look into it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Yes, we certainly do look forward to this for ourselves. I have always maintained this. But it will be a THIRD coming, and not the second, which has already occurred, just as Christ and all the NT writers promised in the Scriptures.

Nowhere does scripture teach a second and third coming of Christ. That is foolish nonsense that can't be taken seriously whatsoever. Stop the madness.

 

[pandaflower]

Here you go...

As for your discussion with the other person concerning the James ossuary that somehow they thought proved James wasn't bodily resurrected - that ossuary is empty. Many, but not all of the ossuaries retrieved for study are found empty. Part of the reason for that could very well be that those ossuaries were confiscated by thieves for sale on the black market, who inadvertently dumped the contents as being considered unimportant before those ossuaries eventually passed into official hands. But that isn't the only reason why many are found empty.

Take for example the Caiphas family tomb, first discovered intact in the Peace Forest section of Jerusalem. There were 12 ossuaries inside. Six of these ossuaries, (including the Caiphas ossuary), had bones within, but not the others. Blame was placed on "grave-robbers" for the ossuaries which were opened and empty. But this does not make sense - especially for an intact family tomb. Why would the most ornate of the 12 ossuaries (the one with Caiphas' name on it) be one that the supposed "grave-robbers" paid no attention to? Wouldn't those supposed "grave-robbers" have opened ALL of the ossuaries in their hunt for relics? Why leave the elaborately-carved Caiphas ossuary alone? I maintain that, even among the Caiphas family which was opposed to Christ, there had been individual members who had been true children of God during their lifetime - and whose mortal remains were bodily resurrected at Christ's AD 70 return. Six empty ossuaries in this intact Caiphas tomb speak volumes.

Let's also consider the famous Hebron "cave of Machpelah", in which Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were all buried. These were all children of faith. There is the traditional site today which is called the "cave of Machpelah" in Hebron, but the site doesn't match at all with the location we have described in Scripture for this cave. I believe the true location was discovered by Wyatt's team. This "cave of Machpelah" was entered and examined, and no bones whatever were found within this cave - only a large flat single bowl which more than likely was used for the preparation of spices to anoint the dead. One would think that at the very least Jacob's mummified body would still have some vestiges remaining for examination. But no. The burial cave with its three double niches for three pairs of bodies is completely empty. Again, I maintain that the six righteous occupants of this burial cave were bodily-resurrected in AD 70 and taken to heaven with the bodily-returning Christ.

As proof that Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives in AD 70, we can examine the description of this predicted return in Zechariah 14:4-5 IN THE LXX - not in the other translations which err in translating some of the language. This text does NOT teach that people would "flee" through a valley created by the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives. Wrong translation.

The better LXX translation reads as follows for Zech. 14:4-5: "And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be CLOSED UP, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be BLOCKED UP as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him."

This is describing an earthquake at the Mount of Olives location when Christ returns, with the crest of the Mount of Olives breaking apart and "leaning" or falling downhill in all directions - north, south, east, and west. This resulting landslide rubble falling downhill would "CLOSE UP" or "BLOCK UP" the Kidron Valley as far as the "Jasod" location. This is the "Azal" location which the KJV writes about, which actually shows up on today's maps as the "Wadi Yasul", just off the far southeastern corner of Jerusalem's walls. Nobody was going to "flee" through this valley at Christ's bodily return, because it was going to be "blocked up" or "closed up" when Christ set foot on the Mount of Olives at that second coming return.

Archaeologists have examined the top layers which currently fill the bed of the Kidron Valley, and have discovered that there is a 40' layer which has been deposited there around the AD 70 time frame, and with yet another layer below that one (deposited in King Uzziah's days during that earthquake). This topmost 40' layer has moved the deepest part of the bed of the Kidron Valley about 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem than it was in Christ's days. In other words, the current-day Mount of Olives isn't nearly as steep as it used to be in Christ's days, because the top of the Mount of Olives broke apart at Christ's bodily return in AD 70, with all that landslide rubble falling downhill to "close up" the Kidron Valley and "block it up" as far as the Azal location.

And since we know that this earthquake at Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives was to be accompanied by a resurrection, and those resurrected ones being caught up together with Him to meet the Lord in the air to return to heaven with Him, this dates Christ's return to the date of that topmost earthquake rubble layer. He left His "calling card" of landslide rubble lying in the Kidron Valley back then as proof that He came exactly where and when He was predicted to bodily return.

Daniel 12:11-13 had predicted this resurrection, and he dated it to arrive 1,335 days after those two predicted events would take place during the same season of time. Those two events in Daniel 12:11 occurred in AD 66, with the end of the 1,335th day countdown falling on AD 70's Pentecost day in Jerusalem - the date of Christ's second coming return.

We should also realize the significance of the eastern gate of the temple which Ezekiel 46 described. For that rebuilt temple constructed at Zerubbabel's directions, the people of Israel in the post-exilic return were to worship as they stood facing that eastern gate in the Sabbaths and the new moons (Ez. 46:1-3). This gate was only for the "prince" of the people to enter AND LEAVE by that gate (Ez. 46:8). The significance of the people of Israel worshipping at that particular location and at those particular times was to symbolize both the location and time for where and when "Messiah the Prince" would both enter AND LEAVE this world to return to heaven along with the bodily-resurrected saints.

NOTE: Once that Jerusalem temple was torn down in September of AD 70, that eastern gate of the temple was also torn down - because by then, the significance of that eastern gate's existence would have been fulfilled by Christ having bodily returned to the Mount of Olives location AND LEFT from that eastern side of Jerusalem's walls. There would be no more reason for that temple and its eastern gate to exist, once it had fulfilled its intended purpose.

Are you alluding the writings of Flavius Josephus in your defense of the second coming occurring in 70A.D?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Scripture does not teach that Jesus would return bodily more than once

Actually, it does. You are reading over those passages without recognizing them, just as I used to do. You may never recognize them, and do you know what? That's okay, since our salvation is not dependent upon our level of knowledge, fortunately.

 

[pandaflower]

Actually, it does. You are reading over those passages without recognizing them, just as I used to do. You may never recognize them, and do you know what? That's okay, since our salvation is not dependent upon our level of knowledge, fortunately.

True. If it did we'd be Gnostics,not Christians.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Are you in luding the writings of Flavius Josephus in your defense of the second coming occurring in 70A.D?

I don't really need Josephus to prove it. Scripture does that all by itself. As I have written before, any extra-biblical material which agrees with Scripture content is perfectly fine to submit alongside the Bible's own proof. But if it differs from Scripture, I trash it. Scripture is the yardstick - not Josephus.

Let me give an example. A while back there was a film documentary that showed the discovery of Paul's ship's anchors that were dropped in the ocean during that fearful storm in which all lives on board were saved, but only the ship was lost. I don't need that film documentary to believe the Scripture account of Paul's journey to Rome by ship. But it sure is fascinating to see the physical proof of those anchors lying in the ocean exactly where Scripture told us they were.

It's the same thing with any archaeological proof of Christ's AD 70 bodily second coming return. The Scriptures prove this already, but it sure is fascinating to see all the physical evidence pile up that supports the Scripture account.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Actually, it does. You are reading over those passages without recognizing them, just as I used to do. You may never recognize them, and do you know what? That's okay, since our salvation is not dependent upon our level of knowledge, fortunately.

It absolutely does not teach a second and third coming of Christ and you have done NOTHING to prove otherwise. I didn't say salvation is dependent on this, but doctrine matters and your false doctrine is just downright embarrassing and ridiculous. Scripture teaches that He would come a second time (Heb 9:28) and He will come in like manner, bodily and visibly, as He ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Nothing anywhere about a third coming after that. The idea of a third coming of Christ is just utterly ludicrous and you need to stop trying to teach something that you can't come anywhere near close to proving with scripture.

 

[pandaflower]

I don't really need Josephus to prove it. Scripture does that all by itself. As I have written before, any extra-biblical material which agrees with Scripture content is perfectly fine to submit alongside the Bible's own proof. But if it differs from Scripture, I trash it. Scripture is the yardstick - not Josephus.

Let me give an example. A while back there was a film documentary that showed the discovery of Paul's ship's anchors that were dropped in the ocean during that fearful storm in which all lives on board were saved, but only the ship was lost. I don't need that film documentary to believe the Scripture account of Paul's journey to Rome by ship. But it sure is fascinating to see the physical proof of those anchors lying in the ocean exactly where Scripture told us they were.

It's the same thing with any archaeological proof of Christ's AD 70 bodily second coming return. The Scriptures prove this already, but it sure is fascinating to see all the physical evidence pile up that supports the Scripture account.

So,if the second coming has already occurred, what's next after all these many centuries?

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

@Nameaboveallnames, I challenge you to do some research on the difference Scripture puts between John the son of Zebedee and the "disciple whom Jesus loved". They are NOT the same. I am not the only one who has recognized this. Others have noticed and written on the same thing. It is easy to prove from the Scriptures, if you only take a bit of time to look into it.

I researched that ridiculous notion thoroughly many years ago, and I found it to be patently false.

 

[David in NJ]

Scripture does not back you up in this. By the mere fact that John speaks of "the FIRST resurrection" in Revelation 20, we know that there is definitely more than one such event. And Paul backs this up by describing no less than THREE such occasions in 1 Cor. 15:23-24. These resurrection events were all to be of the same type - resurrections into a glorified body, changed into the immortal and incorruptible form.

We are called "joint heirs" with Christ. That means all believers will eventually share in the very same type of resurrection, changed into a glorified body form, just like Christ. Just not all on one occasion only. Since when do siblings not resemble each other? Christ our brother has a glorified body form today, and we too will share in having our vile bodies changed into one that resembles His glorious body in the final third resurrection event in our future.

THINK on what you just said:

By the mere fact that John speaks of "the FIRST resurrection" in Revelation 20, we know that there is definitely more than one such event.

THINK and PRAY to the LORD to open your eyes that you may SEE

 

[3 Resurrections]

It absolutely does not teach a second and third coming of Christ and you have done NOTHING to prove otherwise. I didn't say salvation is dependent on this, but doctrine matters and your false doctrine is just downright embarrassing and ridiculous. Scripture teaches that He would come a second time (Heb 9:28) and He will come in like manner, bodily and visibly, as He ascended to heaven (Acts 1:9-11). Nothing anywhere about a third coming after that. The idea of a third coming of Christ is just utterly ludicrous and you need to stop trying to teach something that you can't come anywhere near close to proving with scriptur

There ARE Scriptures which teach a third coming. I have presented them before on this website, and on others. As I said, like me, you have just read over these texts your entire Christian life without recognizing them. The second coming predicted in Hebrews 9:28 does NOT limit Christ's comings to only two. And I agree with you, that second coming was visible and bodily, just as he ascended to heaven in Acts 1.

You aren't losing a single thing by Christ staging yet another third bodily resurrection event in our future. In fact, you are gaining by this. By understanding that Revelation's particular vials, trumpets, and bowls of judgment were for that first century to experience, this assures you that you and I will never have to pass through those "days of vengeance" which the Jews had to wade through during their "last state". The three Beasts (yes, three of them) are all dead and gone long ago, Armageddon and the Gog battle in Israel was a first-century phenomena, Satan's defeat and death is loooooong past, and the "Lake of Fire" which was the city of Jerusalem's "second death" isn't the eternal state of torment for the wicked. Christ the "stone" kingdom crushed the entire statue to dust on the wind back then, and it is incrementally growing into a stone which will fill the world with its effects before the final third coming of Christ. God has promised this growth, and I believe Him with all my heart.

 

[Nameaboveallnames]

So,if the second coming has already occurred, what's next after all these many centuries?

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation." (Heb. 9:27-28)

Jesus will appear bodily THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation. Anybody who tells you that this has already occurred is off their rocker.

 

[3 Resurrections]

I researched that ridiculous notion thoroughly many years ago, and I found it to be patently false.

Well, did you notice that Christ gave His mother Mary into the keeping of the beloved disciple at the crucifixion site, and that the disciple took her "that same hour" into his own home? John the son of Zebedee's home was in Galilee. Not possible at all to reach within the same hour. But "the disciple whom Jesus loved" / Lazarus's home in Bethany WAS within an hour's leisurely walk from the crucifixion site.

Conclusion: Lazarus was the "disciple whom Jesus loved" - not a title given to John the son of Zebedee, who was nicknamed one of the "sons of thunder".

 

[3 Resurrections]

THINK and PRAY to the LORD to open your eyes that you may SEE

I have concentrated the better part of 13 years to studying and praying about the subject of the resurrection as presented in Scripture. Hence my username of "3 Resurrections".

 

[3 Resurrections]

Jesus will appear bodily THE SECOND TIME without sin unto salvation. Anybody who tells you that this has already occurred is off their rocker.

Then you are calling Christ Jesus a liar in Matthew 16:27-28 when He promised that He would return in the glory of His Father with the angels, to give rewards to everyone according to their works, and while some of those standing in front of Him at that moment were still remaining alive to see that happen. I believe Jesus - not how I was taught from infancy. And I am perfectly willing to be considered a fool for Christ's sake. I'm in good company.

 

[PinSeeker]

It is impossible for Revelation to have been written around AD 95.

No, not in the slightest.

The internal datable events in Revelation show a late AD 59 to early AD 60 date...

And you think these are...? I mean, I do agree that there are multiple datable events described throughout Revelation... and multiple iterations of those events... <smile> And at the end of the age, when God's Israel is complete, Jesus will return and bring them all to a close. <smile>

The "tribulation" which John was then sharing with his fellow-believers (Rev. 1:9) was the same as the tribulation Paul wrote about in 2 Cor. 1:8...

Probably so, in part; their experience of it, yes, and if so it was at the time of the writing of Revelation about 45 or so years in the past... and even now, John... and all fellow Christians, past and present, are partners (or at least were, in their lifetimes) partners in the tribulation and the Kingdom and the patient endurance that are in Jesus. Yes, we all have tribulation in this world, just as Jesus told His disciples ~ and us by extension ~ in John 16:33. But, as Paul exhorts us in Romans 12, we should rejoice in hope and be patient in tribulation. And that's what John was doing and basically John's purpose in writing his revelation from the Lord, that we can do this because... Jesus will ~ will, not "did" ~ return and finally make all things new. All God's promises have their 'yes' and 'amen' in Christ Jesus.

And I am perfectly willing to be considered a fool for Christ's sake.

I have no doubts your intentions are good. <smile>

I'm in good company.

Well, among some other well-intended Christians, sure... <smile>

Grace and peace to you.