Archaeological proof of Christ's AD 70 bodily return

[Berean]

Well, this thread is about archaeological evidence. Do you know of any archaeological evidence that suggests there wasn’t a resurrection or coming in 70AD?

What evidence was shown? Nothing posted is proof of any resurrection. It's hearsay. Is there a reference somewhere? Simply saying "this person and that person" doesn't prove anything

 

[pandaflower]

Well, this thread is about archaeological evidence. Do you know of any archaeological evidence that suggests there wasn’t a resurrection or coming in 70AD?

Do you realize what you just wrote there?

Is there any archeological evidence to prove a negative?

 

[grafted branch]

Do you realize what you just wrote there?

Is there any archeological evidence to prove a negative?

If someone were to discover an ossuary which contained the bones of someone like Paul or one of the apostles that died before 70AD then that would be archaeological evidence that a resurrection of the believers did not occurred in 70AD.

 

[grafted branch]

What evidence was shown? Nothing posted is proof of any resurrection. It's hearsay. Is there a reference somewhere? Simply saying "this person and that person" doesn't prove anything

I’m not the one arguing that there is proof, but where is the archaeological evidence of human remains of a believer who died prior to 70AD?

I’m not an archaeologist but I would think there would be some experts that would present some evidence if it existed. Do you know of any human remains of the apostles or anyone else that died before 70AD that we might consider to be a believer?

 

[rebuilder 454]

Full preteriam.
Why not?

Why stop with partial?
Just get creative and let er rip!!!!!

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

You're addressing the wrong person.
I haven't said Jesus returned in 70 a.d

Why did you say I'm denying God's clear words then? What exactly do you think I'm denying?

You had previously said this:

The point being, if the second co.8ng didn't happen in 70A.D. less than a generation from the departure of Jesus,then Jesus missed his promise of returning before that generation,40 yrs ,passed away.

What did you mean by this? You come across as if you're saying the second coming of Jesus happened in 70 AD.

 

[Berean]

I’m not the one arguing that there is proof, but where is the archaeological evidence of human remains of a believer who died prior to 70AD?

I’m not an archaeologist but I would think there would be some experts that would present some evidence if it existed. Do you know of any human remains of the apostles or anyone else that died before 70AD that we might consider to be a believer?

Well, I wasn't around back then, so I can't say. Besides, much of what we know today is all based on tradition. The church says, "This is Jesus' tomb," or "This is where Mary lived". Did you know there's a stone house in Turkey where they say Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived out her last years. There's a church that claims to have Jesus' foreskin from his circumcision. Throughout history, several churches in Europe have claimed to possess this "Holy Prepuce", often simultaneously. Numerous miraculous powers have been attributed to it. Several churches claim to have locks of hair belonging to Mary; the only problem is, they're all different colors. Several churches claim to have a sliver of wood from the cross of Christ; if you put them all together, you could build an ark. So forgive me if I don't put my faith traditions and what archaeologists claim is or isn't. An empty tomb doesn't mean a believer was raptured. Because we can't say for certain if that tomb is actually attributed to the one named. There's only one way to find out, lets go to the Vatican and open up Peter's tomb and see if he's there. Oh wait, that doesn't prove anything, because we don't know if that's really the body of Peter.

 

[PinSeeker]

Well, I wasn't around back then, so I can't say. Besides, much of what we know today is all based on tradition. The church says, "This is Jesus' tomb," or "This is where Mary lived". Did you know there's a stone house in Turkey where they say Mary, the mother of Jesus, lived out her last years. There's a church that claims to have Jesus' foreskin from his circumcision. Throughout history, several churches in Europe have claimed to possess this "Holy Prepuce", often simultaneously. Numerous miraculous powers have been attributed to it. Several churches claim to have locks of hair belonging to Mary; the only problem is, they're all different colors. Several churches claim to have a sliver of wood from the cross of Christ; if you put them all together, you could build an ark. So forgive me if I don't put my faith traditions and what archaeologists claim is or isn't. An empty tomb doesn't mean a believer was raptured. Because we can't say for certain if that tomb is actually attributed to the one named. There's only one way to find out, lets go to the Vatican and open up Peter's tomb and see if he's there. Oh wait, that doesn't prove anything, because we don't know if that's really the body of Peter.

I mean, who cares about all that, really, Berean? The only real treasure is God's Word and the truth therein... Christ Himself, Who is our hope, our salvation, our all. He is the way, the truth, and the life. And one day our faith will be sight.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Berean]

I mean, who cares about all that, really, Berean? The only real treasure is God's Word and the truth therein... Christ Himself, Who is our hope, our salvation, our all. He is the way, the truth, and the life. And one day our faith will be sight.

Grace and peace to you.

Can't argue with that

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Here you go...

As for your discussion with the other person concerning the James ossuary that somehow they thought proved James wasn't bodily resurrected - that ossuary is empty. Many, but not all of the ossuaries retrieved for study are found empty. Part of the reason for that could very well be that those ossuaries were confiscated by thieves for sale on the black market, who inadvertently dumped the contents as being considered unimportant before those ossuaries eventually passed into official hands. But that isn't the only reason why many are found empty.

Take for example the Caiaphas family tomb, first discovered intact in the Peace Forest section of Jerusalem. There were 12 ossuaries inside. Six of these ossuaries, (including the Caiaphas ossuary), had bones within, but not the others. Blame was placed on "grave-robbers" for the ossuaries which were opened and empty. But this does not make sense - especially for an intact family tomb. Why would the most ornate of the 12 ossuaries (the one with Caiaphas' name on it) be one that the supposed "grave-robbers" paid no attention to? Wouldn't those supposed "grave-robbers" have opened ALL of the ossuaries in their hunt for relics? Why leave the elaborately-carved Caiaphas ossuary alone? I maintain that, even among the Caiaphas family which was opposed to Christ, there had been individual members who had been true children of God during their lifetime - and whose mortal remains were bodily resurrected at Christ's AD 70 return. Six empty ossuaries in this intact Caiaphas tomb speak volumes.

Let's also consider the famous Hebron "cave of Machpelah", in which Abraham and Sarah, Isaac and Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were all buried. These were all children of faith. There is the traditional site today which is called the "cave of Machpelah" in Hebron, but the site doesn't match at all with the location we have described in Scripture for this cave. I believe the true location was discovered by Wyatt's team. This "cave of Machpelah" was entered and examined, and no bones whatever were found within this cave - only a large flat single bowl which more than likely was used for the preparation of spices to anoint the dead. One would think that at the very least Jacob's mummified body would still have some vestiges remaining for examination. But no. The burial cave with its three double niches for three pairs of bodies is completely empty. Again, I maintain that the six righteous occupants of this burial cave were bodily-resurrected in AD 70 and taken to heaven with the bodily-returning Christ.

As proof that Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives in AD 70, we can examine the description of this predicted return in Zechariah 14:4-5 IN THE LXX - not in the other translations which err in translating some of the language. This text does NOT teach that people would "flee" through a valley created by the Lord standing on the Mount of Olives. Wrong translation.

The better LXX translation reads as follows for Zech. 14:4-5: "And his feet shall stand in that day on the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave asunder, half of it toward the east and the west, a very great division; and half the mountain shall lean to the north, and half of it to the south. And the valley of my mountains shall be CLOSED UP, and the valley of the mountains shall be joined on to Jasod, and shall be BLOCKED UP as it was blocked up in the days of the earthquake, in the days of Ozias king of Juda; and the Lord my God shall come, and all the saints with him."

This is describing an earthquake at the Mount of Olives location when Christ returns, with the crest of the Mount of Olives breaking apart and "leaning" or falling downhill in all directions - north, south, east, and west. This resulting landslide rubble falling downhill would "CLOSE UP" or "BLOCK UP" the Kidron Valley as far as the "Jasod" location. This is the "Azal" location which the KJV writes about, which actually shows up on today's maps as the "Wadi Yasul", just off the far southeastern corner of Jerusalem's walls. Nobody was going to "flee" through this valley at Christ's bodily return, because it was going to be "blocked up" or "closed up" when Christ set foot on the Mount of Olives at that second coming return.

Archaeologists have examined the top layers which currently fill the bed of the Kidron Valley, and have discovered that there is a 40' layer which has been deposited there around the AD 70 time frame, and with yet another layer below that one (deposited in King Uzziah's days during that earthquake). This topmost 40' layer has moved the deepest part of the bed of the Kidron Valley about 70' further away from the walls of Jerusalem than it was in Christ's days. In other words, the current-day Mount of Olives isn't nearly as steep as it used to be in Christ's days, because the top of the Mount of Olives broke apart at Christ's bodily return in AD 70, with all that landslide rubble falling downhill to "close up" the Kidron Valley and "block it up" as far as the Azal location.

And since we know that this earthquake at Christ's bodily return to the Mount of Olives was to be accompanied by a resurrection, and those resurrected ones being caught up together with Him to meet the Lord in the air to return to heaven with Him, this dates Christ's return to the date of that topmost earthquake rubble layer. He left His "calling card" of landslide rubble lying in the Kidron Valley back then as proof that He came exactly where and when He was predicted to bodily return.

Daniel 12:11-13 had predicted this resurrection, and he dated it to arrive 1,335 days after those two predicted events would take place during the same season of time. Those two events in Daniel 12:11 occurred in AD 66, with the end of the 1,335th day countdown falling on AD 70's Pentecost day in Jerusalem - the date of Christ's second coming return.

We should also realize the significance of the eastern gate of the temple which Ezekiel 46 described. For that rebuilt temple constructed at Zerubbabel's directions, the people of Israel in the post-exilic return were to worship as they stood facing that eastern gate in the Sabbaths and the new moons (Ez. 46:1-3). This gate was only for the "prince" of the people to enter AND LEAVE by that gate (Ez. 46:8). The significance of the people of Israel worshipping at that particular location and at those particular times was to symbolize both the location and time for where and when "Messiah the Prince" would both enter AND LEAVE this world to return to heaven along with the bodily-resurrected saints.

NOTE: Once that Jerusalem temple was torn down in September of AD 70, that eastern gate of the temple was also torn down - because by then, the significance of that eastern gate's existence would have been fulfilled by Christ having bodily returned to the Mount of Olives location AND LEFT from that eastern side of Jerusalem's walls. There would be no more reason for that temple and its eastern gate to exist, once it had fulfilled its intended purpose.

Someone has been feeding you some really screwed up info based on human supposition and hair brained logic. If Jesus had bodily returned in 70AD it would have been reported and noted by believers!

 

[WPM]

For Jesus to be "coming in His kingdom" included His coming with the glory of His Father with the angels, to give rewards o every man according to his works. That is Great White Throne judgment language that accompanies a bodily resurrection. And some of those standing in front of Christ at that moment would still be alive to see that day come when Christ would bodily return. It would be on that day when Christ would perform all those activities.

This is not an isolated verse dealing with an AD 70 bodily return for Christ. It's only one of the many.



Christ was said to "taste death for every man" (Heb. 2:9). That was a literal, physical death process which Christ passed through. There were some standing in front of Christ in Matt. 16:27-28 that would not "taste death" by this literal, physical death process before they saw Him returning with the angels, etc., etc.


I'm not suggesting. Scripture tells us it is impossible for a resurrected person to die twice. Heb. 9:27 says that "It is appointed unto men ONCE to die..." - not twice. Christ told us that in the resurrection process, the "children of the resurrection" are made like unto the angels in heaven, which are deathless. "Neither CAN they die anymore" states it to be impossible for Lazarus to die twice. NOBODY who was bodily resurrected in Scripture ever died twice. It's an impossibility.

Who cares what the chief priests wanted to do? Their evil desire to see Lazarus die again does not mean that it was a possibility. The disciple whom Jesus loved was "known to the high priest". He was even allowed to enter the palace of the high priest, when a fisherman from Galilee such as the son of Zebedee would not have been allowed entrance (John 18:15). And he even knew the name of Malchus the servant of the high priest, which shows his familiarity with the members of the priesthood - not something that the fisherman son of Zebedee would have known.

This is totally delusional.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Someone has been feeding you some really screwed up info based on human supposition and hair brained logic. If Jesus had bodily returned in 70AD it would have been reported and noted by believers!

There were no Christians in Jerusalem or around it in AD 70 to be eye-witnesses who could make such a report.

Remember, Jesus was going to bodily return to the Mount of Olives location, and in the same glorified body in which He left this planet back in Acts 1. That means it was going to be "every eye" of "those who pierced Him" who saw that bodily return - eyewitnesses at that very location in Jerusalem.

Remember also, Christ had forewarned the believers that when they saw Jerusalem surrounded by armies, that they were to "flee to the mountains" to escape all the coming disasters of the "great tribulation" in Judea and Jerusalem (Luke 21:20-21). They obeyed Christ's warning, and fled Jerusalem and Judea in AD 66 when the first Roman army under Cestius Gallus showed up to surround Jerusalem. That means there were no local believers around Jerusalem to see that visible and bodily return of Christ in AD 70. Christ had wanted them to be absent from Jerusalem for the duration of the AD 66-70 siege, and they were.

We know that about 1-1/4 million believers heeded Christ's warning to flee Judea and Jerusalem in AD 66 by taking the census record at Passover in Jerusalem in AD 66 as ordered by Nero and comparing those numbers with the surviving number of individuals present in Jerusalem in September of AD 70, minus the total of Jewish casualties in between these years.

 

[pandaflower]

It's why I noted way earlier that when Jesus said this,the one to whom he was preaching,will not pass away before they witness his coming in the clouds, that since it is nearly over 2000 years after 33 A.D. ,either Jesus missed his mark or it's something else .

Interestingly, relative to a second coming,Jesus also said elsewhere,no one knows that day or time. Not even the son of man.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Interestingly, relative to a second coming,Jesus also said elsewhere,no one knows that day or time. Not even the son of man.

Jesus during His earthly ministry said He didn't know the day or the hour, but the ascended Jesus WAS told this information by God. That's why Revelation was written - for Christ "to show unto His servants things that must shortly come to pass", which included all the events leading up to the day of Christ's second coming return in John's generation.

The only reason why those in Christ's day did not yet know the day or the hour was because the day of Christ's return would be based upon the appearance of the new moon in the heavens. Christ returned on AD 70's Pentecost day, according to Daniel's 1,335 day countdown to the resurrection. The day of Pentecost was always based on 50 days after Passover's new moon first made an appearance in the heavens.

 

[Berean]

Someone has been feeding you some really screwed up info based on human supposition and hair brained logic. If Jesus had bodily returned in 70AD it would have been reported and noted by believers!

Shhhh .... it's a secret!

 

[3 Resurrections]

Shhhh .... it's a secret!

No, it wasn't a secret to all the tribes of Israel who were inside the besieged city of Jerusalem in AD 70. When they saw Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, they all mourned to see it, just as Zechariah 12 had prophesied they would do. Their deep mourning was because they were not included in that bodily resurrection event at that time. God "shut the door" and they were left on the other side begging Him, "Lord, lord open unto us".

The vast majority of these eye-witnesses to Christ's return at Jerusalem died shortly afterward of the sword, disease, or famine. Or if they survived, they were taken captive and sent into slavery or into Roman arenas to die on the sands for Rome's entertainment.

 

[shepherdsword]

No, it wasn't a secret to all the tribes of Israel who were inside the besieged city of Jerusalem in AD 70. When they saw Christ's return to the Mount of Olives, they all mourned to see it, just as Zechariah 12 had prophesied they would do. Their deep mourning was because they were not included in that bodily resurrection event at that time. God "shut the door" and they were left on the other side begging Him, "Lord, lord open unto us".

The vast majority of these eye-witnesses to Christ's return at Jerusalem died shortly afterward of the sword, disease, or famine. Or if they survived, they were taken captive and sent into slavery or into Roman arenas to die on the sands for Rome's entertainment.

I heard some duzzies in my time but this is the most absurd position on the second coming I have ever heard. Is this what they teach at the kingdom hall?

 

[shepherdsword]

Well, this thread is about archaeological evidence. Do you know of any archaeological evidence that suggests there wasn’t a resurrection or coming in 70AD?

The burden of proof is on the ones who make the outrageous claim that Jesus came on 70AD. Do you have proof of that?

 

[3 Resurrections]

I heard some duzzies in my time but this is the most absurd position on the second coming I have ever heard. Is this what they teach at the kingdom hall?

Spell check. That would be "doozies". I've no idea what any Kingdom Hall has to say on this, never having been in one before.

Christ told His disciples to read their prophet Daniel's Scriptures (Matt. 24:15), and they would understand the timing of all those disasters, which would let them know the exact day of His coming. Likewise, all we have to do today is read Daniel ourselves also, and we know the exact day of Christ's second coming return, according to the 1,335th day in Daniel 12:11-13.

Daniel told us that two events would take place during the same season of time: events which would initiate a 1,335-day countdown to the resurrection in which Daniel himself would take part at the end of those days. Those two events took place in the summer of AD 66 with the Jews having taken away the daily sacrifice for Rome and the Roman emperor, and by the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and "standing in the holy place" (the "abomination of desolation") by making contact with the temple wall in October of AD 66. Exactly 1,335 days later, AD 70's Pentecost day arrived (a date based on the first sign of the new moon at Passover), and Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 had predicted. Christ's return was to take place during that prophesied "siege both against Judah and Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:1-2). It's ancient history by now.

 

[shepherdsword]

Spell check. That would be "doozies". I've no idea what any Kingdom Hall has to say on this, never having been in one before.

Christ told His disciples to read their prophet Daniel's Scriptures (Matt. 24:15), and they would understand the timing of all those disasters, which would let them know the exact day of His coming. Likewise, all we have to do today is read Daniel ourselves also, and we know the exact day of Christ's second coming return, according to the 1,335th day in Daniel 12:11-13.

Daniel told us that two events would take place during the same season of time: events which would initiate a 1,335-day countdown to the resurrection in which Daniel himself would take part at the end of those days. Those two events took place in the summer of AD 66 with the Jews having taken away the daily sacrifice for Rome and the Roman emperor, and by the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem and "standing in the holy place" (the "abomination of desolation") by making contact with the temple wall in October of AD 66. Exactly 1,335 days later, AD 70's Pentecost day arrived (a date based on the first sign of the new moon at Passover), and Christ bodily returned to the Mount of Olives, just as Zechariah 14:4-5 had predicted. Christ's return was to take place during that prophesied "siege both against Judah and Jerusalem (Zechariah 12:1-2). It's ancient history by now.

I don't think you understand what happens at the second coming.

1) Rv 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

2) 1 Th 4:16-17 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

3) Rv 19:11-16 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND Lord OF LordS.

You have adopted the heretical teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus

2 Ti 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.