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Rex

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The Darbitests


The Darbyites

Dispensationalis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Dispensation (disambiguation).

Dispensationalism is an evangelical, futurist, Biblical interpretation that understands God to have related to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants in a series of "dispensations," or periods in history.

As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in Scripture and expounded in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882) and the Brethren Movement.[1]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological end times perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Christian Church,[2]:322 and that God has yet to fulfill his promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon his return, will rule the world from Jerusalem[3] for a thousand years. In other areas of theology, dispensationalists hold to a wide range of beliefs within the evangelical and fundamentalist spectrum.[1]:13

With the rise of dispensationalism, some conservative Protestants came to interpret Book of Revelation not as an account of past events (with specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, a position known as Preterism) but as predictions of the future [4][5][6].
 

jiggyfly

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
That translation is actually inaccurate. Verse 26 says 'all Israel will be saved [no period] as it is written, 'The deliver will come out of Zion and turn Jacob from ungodliness'. In other words, verse 26 is not a declaration that everybody in Israel will be saved, but that all of the remnant who are Israel will be saved in the same manner, i.e., via the new-covenant removal of their sins.
Your interpretation is a real stretch, especially when the whole text is considered. What translation do you prefer? Pick one you like and post it and let's examine how it reads.


Rex said:
The Darbitests

The Darbyites Dispensationalis
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
For other uses, see Dispensation (disambiguation).

Dispensationalism is an evangelical, futurist, Biblical interpretation that understands God to have related to human beings in different ways under different Biblical covenants in a series of "dispensations," or periods in history.

As a system, dispensationalism is rooted in Scripture and expounded in the writings of John Nelson Darby (1800–1882) and the Brethren Movement.[1]:10 The theology of dispensationalism consists of a distinctive eschatological end times perspective, as all dispensationalists hold to premillennialism and most hold to a pretribulation rapture. Dispensationalists believe that the nation of Israel is distinct from the Christian Church,[2]:322 and that God has yet to fulfill his promises to national Israel. These promises include the land promises, which in the future world to come result in a millennial kingdom and Third Temple where Christ, upon his return, will rule the world from Jerusalem[3] for a thousand years. In other areas of theology, dispensationalists hold to a wide range of beliefs within the evangelical and fundamentalist spectrum.[1]:13

With the rise of dispensationalism, some conservative Protestants came to interpret Book of Revelation not as an account of past events (with specific reference to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70, a position known as Preterism) but as predictions of the future [4][5][6].
And this group bases their entire theology on this one verse? Thats not wise, but then I find that those who believe in endless torment ignore many scriptures.

It's best to allow HolySpirit to adjust our thinking to align with truth.
 

Rex

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jiggyfly said:
Your interpretation is a real stretch, especially when the whole text is considered. What translation do you prefer? Pick one you like and post it and let's examine how it reads.


And this group bases their entire theology on this one verse? Thats not wise, but then I find that those who believe in endless torment ignore many scriptures.

It's best to allow HolySpirit to adjust our thinking to align with truth.
I find the NT has a sort of error checking built into it, you know things are repeated.
Do you have another verse the says all Israel as in Jews will be saved? I'll presume that's what you read it to say.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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jiggyfly said:
Your interpretation is a real stretch, especially when the whole text is considered. What translation do you prefer? Pick one you like and post it and let's examine how it reads.
Well if you consider the context of chapters 9-11 it isn't. Paul takes great pains in those chapters to make the point that only a remnant is saved. Great pains, to the point of being redundant. That remnant he calls Israel, and the others, though they be of physical Israel, are not really Israel. It doesn't make sense that Paul would expend so much effort to demonstrate through scripture that only a remnant is saved, and then in one verse contradict that declaration.

I don't use any translation; I use a Greek interlinear. Here's a literal translation:

And all Israel will be saved in the manner it has been written, 'the deliverer will come out of Zion and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.'

And that is exactly what has happened. Jesus came and removed ungodliness from Jacob via the new-covenant removal of their sins.


Rex said:
I find the NT has a sort of error checking built into it, you know things are repeated.
Do you have another verse the says all Israel as in Jews will be saved? I'll presume that's what you read it to say.
That's a really good point and a nice way of saying it. The exact opposite is found in scripture - everywhere.


jiggyfly said:
And this group bases their entire theology on this one verse?
Pretty much.


Rex said:
Do you have another verse the says all Israel as in Jews will be saved? I'll presume that's what you read it to say.
A good example, and probably the most likely candidate is the exodus from Egypt when the whole nation of Israel was saved en masse.

Well, not exactly because the lord afterwards destroyed those who didn't believe.

That's probably about as good as it gets.
 

jiggyfly

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Rex said:
I find the NT has a sort of error checking built into it, you know things are repeated.
Do you have another verse the says all Israel as in Jews will be saved? I'll presume that's what you read it to say.
Actually there are many scriptures but couldn't you find a translation of this verse you like?
I would really like to look at this verse with you and see what we can conclude.

Here are a couple of verses to support all Israel will be saved.
11 For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.

Romans 14:11 (NLT)

1 Then what’s the advantage of being a Jew? Is there any value in the ceremony of circumcision?2 Yes, there are great benefits! First of all, the Jews were entrusted with the whole revelation of God. 3 True, some of them were unfaithful; but just because they were unfaithful, does that mean God will be unfaithful?4 Of course not! Even if everyone else is a liar, God is true. As the Scriptures say about him,
“You will be proved right in what you say, and you will win your case in court.”

Romans 3:1-4 (NLT)

This is good and pleases God our Savior,4 who wants everyone to be saved and to understand the truth.
1 Tim 2:3-4 (NLT)

I can post more if you like.
 

Rex

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Maybe you just didn't understand the challenge I'll repeat it.

Do you have another verse the says all Israel as in Jews will be saved?
 

jiggyfly

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Well if you consider the context of chapters 9-11 it isn't. Paul takes great pains in those chapters to make the point that only a remnant is saved. Great pains, to the point of being redundant. That remnant he calls Israel, and the others, though they be of physical Israel, are not really Israel. It doesn't make sense that Paul would expend so much effort to demonstrate through scripture that only a remnant is saved, and then in one verse contradict that declaration.

I don't use any translation; I use a Greek interlinear. Here's a literal translation:

And all Israel will be saved in the manner it has been written, 'the deliverer will come out of Zion and will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.'

And that is exactly what has happened. Jesus came and removed ungodliness from Jacob via the new-covenant removal of their sins.



That's a really good point and a nice way of saying it. The exact opposite is found in scripture - everywhere.



Pretty much.



A good example, and probably the most likely candidate is the exodus from Egypt when the whole nation of Israel was saved en masse.

Well, not exactly because the lord afterwards destroyed those who didn't believe.

That's probably about as good as it gets.
Seems your preferred translation states the same as the others, "all Israel will be saved". Are you denying it?

Rex said:
Maybe you just didn't understand the challenge I'll repeat it.

Do you have another verse the says all Israel as in Jews will be saved?
I did indeed understand and gave a couple of verses that support it.
 

Rex

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What is it with people that simply refuse to answer a simple question?

You just hang on to your belief and continue to ignore the verses threw out the NT that indicate Israel is not Israel of the flesh. Romans 9:6
You certainly allow one verse dictate how you read the rest of the NT, have fun
 

dragonfly

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Hi jiggyfly,

It's not about choosing an interpretation of the Bible which suits the theology to which you prefer to become espoused, it's about finding a Bible which accurately reflects what the original author was teaching, and adjusting one's theology to the revelation God gave the apostle.

In the case of Isaiah 59:20, Paul appears to have changed the wording slightly already (according to the KJV) but the NLT takes it a step further.

Not only is it mischevous for the NLT to have changed 'Jacob' to Israel (with a footnote making that clear) because of the way that changes the actual meaning of the passage, but to ADD 'the nation of Israel' when the original refers only to 'His people', is sheer political bias.

when trying to understand them with an endless torment mindset.
Speaking for myself, I am not 'trying to understand' the scriptures 'with an endless torment mindset', and I believe you are unwise to try to bend the whole BIble around your distaste for the final outworking of God's justice. He is God, after all that puny humans can say and do, and He, as God, has made it possible for every human being to choose eternal life. He is not threatening them with eternal death if they refuse. They are already dead in Adam and trespasses and sins. Your argument is really with God, when it should be with them. Get a taste of what He's been through for millennia, stretching out His hands to people like those in Romans 10:32, and you'll understand their time runs out. They made their choice.

Going back to the text in Romans 11, the only place that 'all' is mentioned, is v 26. Prior to that it is clear Paul is talking about a remnant of descendants of the fathers - Israelites. In Romans 9:4 he places 'the adoption' at the top of the list of what will save Israelite believers. (This is what also saves Gentile believers.) Romans 11:5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained that which he seeks for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded 8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day. 9 And David says, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them: 10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway. (Psalm 69:22, 23) Notice, when Jesus quoted Isaiah 61 in Luke 4, He added 'recovering of sight to the blind'.

17 And if some of the branches be broken off ... 20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off ... 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. Paul was speaking from the experience of having been grafted back in.

So... Paul has established that only a remnant of Israel has been saved so far, and the prophecy is that only a remnant will be saved anyway. He does not refer to this remnant as 'all Israel' all through the first twenty-five verses of Romans 11. Back in Romans 9, he has stated very plainly:

6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Paul asks in Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? The whole chapter is relevant. It ends:

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ... 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

What is the promise? It's the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15 This was common knowledge in Israel. Against this, they rebelled.

It is very clear that Paul is not including any unbelieving Israelites in 'all Israel'. If you think he is, you are misreading a great deal of text.



Regarding your quotation from Isaiah 45, here is the context:

20 Assemble yourselves and come; draw near together, ye that are escaped of the nations:
they have no knowledge that set up the wood of their graven image, and pray unto a god that cannot save.
21 Tell ye, and bring them near;
yea, let them take counsel together:
who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time?
have not I the Lord? and there is no God else beside me;
a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth:
for I am God, and there is none else.

23
I have sworn by myself,
the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return,
That unto me every knee shall bow,
every tongue shall swear.

24 Surely, shall one say, in the Lord have I righteousness and strength:
even to him shall men come;
and all that are incensed against him shall be ashamed.
25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory
.

To be justified means to be made righteous. This - in the Lord - is the only way any of us are made righteous, and that is by faith (not law, or flesh).

Looking at v 23, which I think you quoted, and Paul gives New Covenant context in Philippians 2:10, 11, the overall context is Moses' prophecy of Christ, and the endorsement it receives from Peter in Acts 3, never forgetting that God told Eve first.

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. 20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. 21 And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the Lord hath not spoken? 22 When a prophet speaketh in the name of the Lord, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord hath not spoken, but the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; 20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. 24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. 25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. 26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities.


One day 'every knee shall bow and every tongue confess' and 'all Israel shall be saved' is because all the dissenters will have been destroyed.


Coming back to Romans 11, as the remnant from that generation and succeeding generations has continued to be added to the New Covenant body of believers, so have Gentiles continued to be added, and it is the Gentiles, which complete all Israel.

Galatians 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree: 14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who has made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; 15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; 16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: 17 And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh. 18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together grows unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


Israel of the flesh has to choose between the flesh and the Spirit. Some prefer flesh. They will die. Those who choose Spirit, can be saved.
 

jiggyfly

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dragonfly said:
Hi jiggyfly,

It's not about choosing an interpretation of the Bible which suits the theology to which you prefer to become espoused, it's about finding a Bible which accurately reflects what the original author was teaching, and adjusting one's theology to the revelation God gave the apostle.
I agree wholeheartedly.

In the case of Isaiah 59:20, Paul appears to have changed the wording slightly already (according to the KJV) but the NLT takes it a step further.
Great point Dragonfly, I cannot remember if I have ever compared the actual texts side by side before. Which do you suspect? Does Paul or KJV misquote?
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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jiggyfly said:
I agree wholeheartedly.

Great point Dragonfly, I cannot remember if I have ever compared the actual texts side by side before. Which do you suspect? Does Paul or KJV misquote?
Paul's version came from the Septuagint (LXX).

And the deliverer shall come from Zion, and he shall turn impiety from Jacob. Isaiah 59:20 (LXX)
The deliverer will come out of Zion; he will turn away ungodliness from Jacob. Romans 11:26 (LEB)
 

SilenceInMotion

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logabe said:
The purpose of Judgment is to rehab. you. The reason a person doesn't have
the ability to submit to the Christ is because he/she doesn't have Judgment in
their land. Isa. 26:9 says,

9 At night my soul longs for You, Indeed, my spirit within
me seeks You diligently ; For when the earth experiences
Your judgments The inhabitants of the world learn
righteousness.

God uses fire to judge us and correct us in His Time. That fire consists of trials
that will try us to see if we will change the way we see and do things. We are
being tried (judged) everyday as Christians for the purpose of learning the right
way to treat our neighbors.

Our judgment comes now while the unbeliever's judgment or correction will come
after the appointed time of death (Hebrews 9:27). The day is coming when all
shall hear the voice of God and come forth (John 5:29-30). In the end when all
have experienced the fire of judgment, then every knee will bow and every tongue
will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil. 2:10-11).

Everyone will experience the atonement, but those who accept Him later will be
saved like as by fire (1st Cor. 3:15). We are being corrected now to be used in the
Ages to come for the restoration of all things (Acts 3:21). This restoration has not
been spoken of in the past, but God is beginning to reveal His Plan to his people in
a greater way.

In essense, God is the Savior of all men, especially those that believe (1st Tim. 4:10).
There is a special salvation for those that believe, but God will save all men in their
own order (1st Cor. 15:23). Everyone will come in God's order so in the end He will be
the Savior of ALL MEN.

Did Paul say all men? Whoops! Did he mean all believers?

Overcomers will be raised @ the 1st Resurrection to rule with him. Believers will be
rewarded and unbelievers judged @ the Great White Throne. But all will ultimately
be saved.

Yes... all will ultimately be forgiven.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe
This is why belief in God is not necessary for salvation, it is the righteousness of the man that saves him. That is because Jesus' atonement allows us to do good, whereas under the law, we could not.

But someone could come along and put a limitation on that. For example, having to be imputed the righteousness of the Lord before one can do good works, which pretty much renders it impossible for one to be saved no matter how righteous a person they are. Especially if you are a Jew, which incidentally, the founder of the imputed righteousness doctrine despised. That doctrine makes them godless heretics, you see, to the say nothing of atheists and anybody else in this wide world, including your loved ones.
I wonder what Ghandi would make of all that? Oh well, doesn't matter now I suppose if he's in Hell.

People are judged based on the morality of their soul. That is what salvatoin and eternal fire are about, to say otherwise is contradictory to the entire premise of what Christianity commands and teaches, and such claims are merely a consequence of laboring under legal fictions in doctrine.


But universalism, what you put forth at the end, is not something I can agree with. Salvation is not unconditional. The wicked join the wicked, and the righteous join the righteous.
 

dragonfly

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Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,

How do you know Paul's came from the Septuagint and not a Hebrew record?

The KJV's different rendering of Isa 59:20 prompted my comment to jiggyfly, and I don't have a problem with the way its worded, because it accurately reflects the weight of God's injunctions to His people, individually, to turn away from sin. (The day of Atonement was the only exception to that.)





This is why belief in God is not necessary for salvation
SIM, your doctrine is highly subversive of the Truth.

Hi jiggyfly,

I do not suspect that Paul misquoted Isaiah.

It was when I was reading Tyndale's New Testament in modern English spelling, that the flow of Romans 9 - 11 really came through to me. Tyndale was a brilliant translator, and he was working from the same collection of manuscripts as Erasmus had used.

We are not going to agree on universalism - that everyone who ever lived will be saved - and I don't know how you can hold to it when so much of the OT showed God destroying His enemies, so many times in the NT an apostle refers to being lost, or perishing, and above, that Christ had to destroy Satan's power through His (Christ's) death on the cross. I recognise that God has the power of death (as in angel of death, for instance) and has taken the KEYS of death and hell from Satan, but being made in God's image has placed responsibility on men and women to please Him from their hearts, because He is not a God of compromise, mixture, or any kind of impurity.

Human beings do have to CHOOSE righteousness. It is not going to fall into their laps by any form of passivity whatever, and certainly not through a lifetime of adhering to their natural-born state of rebellion against His righteousness, which inevitably plays out through their actions.
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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dragonfly said:
How do you know Paul's came from the Septuagint and not a Hebrew record?
Because I'm looking at them side by side. They are virtually identical in Greek.

Really, every Christian should equip themselves with good tools that allow them to see for themselves what the scriptures actually say by downloading the free software in the first three links in my signature.
 

jiggyfly

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Dragonfly, thanks for your respectful reply. I respect your position and want you to know mine. I am not of the same belief as what many consider to be universalism, in that everyone is saved no matter what they do. I do however believe in the universal reconciliation of all mankind, each one in their own order. I believe that many will have to be purged after the flesh has died by way of hell, but I do not believe in endless torment. I believe in a victorious Christ and that Father, because He does not want anyone to perish patiently manages to get His way in the end and have all things reconciled through Christ. No one escapes Father's judgement nor is it separated from His love, both are employed in accomplishing of His will.
 

dragonfly

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Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,

Because I'm looking at them side by side. They are virtually identical in Greek.
I could see they were almost identical, I just wonder how it is possible to know what Paul was reading. The KJV in Isaiah refers to 'those who turn away from ungodliness in Jacob', and I like that turn of phrase, because it's how the law attempted to press them to behave, before the one who kept the whole law perfectly on our behalf, had come.

That Paul refers to ungodliness being 'turned away from Jacob' in Romans 11, is a clear shift of emphasis, which well portrays the difference between the covenants.



Hi jiggyfly,

Thanks for your clarifying statement. I'd be interested to see the procession of scriptures you use to construct your thesis, but I know you are quite busy at times. I am familiar with the connection between Isaiah 45 and Philippians 2, so what, for you, are the other crucial verses which make your doctrine work?
 

HeRoseFromTheDead

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dragonfly said:
I could see they were almost identical, I just wonder how it is possible to know what Paul was reading. The KJV in Isaiah refers to 'those who turn away from ungodliness in Jacob', and I like that turn of phrase, because it's how the law attempted to press them to behave, before the one who kept the whole law perfectly on our behalf, had come.
The highlighted phrase is word for word identical in the LXX and Romans 11:26.
 

justaname

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SilenceInMotion said:
This is why belief in God is not necessary for salvation, it is the righteousness of the man that saves him.
Oh my dear lost fellow, you have been deceived by a false gospel. Do you understand how condemning upon yourself you are with this statement? Without belief in God you will never be saved. All works of your own righteousness are for naught. You preach against the gospel of grace, that which was handed down by the apostles and the saints, and teach the same as the anti-christ.

SilenceInMotion said:
That is because Jesus' atonement allows us to do good, whereas under the law, we could not.

But someone could come along and put a limitation on that. For example, having to be imputed the righteousness of the Lord before one can do good works, which pretty much renders it impossible for one to be saved no matter how righteous a person they are.
This is why we are saved by grace through faith, because any works of your own are menstrual rags. Until you are deemed righteous by God, (imputed righteousness), no works are worth anything. It is by faith, or belief in the death, burial, and bodily resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, that you are deemed righteous. As it is written speaking of Abraham, "And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness."

You do not comprehend either that your works after you are saved are not even your own, but God's.

Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
SilenceInMotion said:
Especially if you are a Jew, which incidentally, the founder of the imputed righteousness doctrine despised. That doctrine makes them godless heretics, you see, to the say nothing of atheists and anybody else in this wide world, including your loved ones.
I wonder what Ghandi would make of all that? Oh well, doesn't matter now I suppose if he's in Hell.
People are judged based on the morality of their soul. That is what salvatoin and eternal fire are about, to say otherwise is contradictory to the entire premise of what Christianity commands and teaches, and such claims are merely a consequence of laboring under legal fictions in doctrine.
But universalism, what you put forth at the end, is not something I can agree with. Salvation is not unconditional. The wicked join the wicked, and the righteous join the righteous.
All people fall short in the morality of their soul, this is why it is spoken by the prophet David "Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity, And in whose spirit there is no guile."

The only way for God to not impute iniquity is through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. I pray this helps.


Speaking a bit to eternal punishment it is equal to separation from God. This is on a relational level as God is ever present. This is a reality of hell, knowing God does exist and not being able to commune with Him. Not always will Satan and his host be able to come to accuse the saints before God.

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.

All are not forgiven. God is glorified both in His salvation and justice. If all were forgiven God would not be just, but we know Him to be both the just and the justifier.
 
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aspen

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SIM, I am at the point where l have to question your character. only a person who hate catholicism would present views on doctrine and the catholi church like you do. defending pedophiles? blatantly promoting the protestant misconception that catholics try to get to heaven by their own righteousness? picking fights with everyone you can? Come on....give it up. Go find another board to play the catholic rube.
 
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logabe

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dragonfly said:
Hi HeRoseFromTheDead,


I could see they were almost identical, I just wonder how it is possible to know what Paul was reading. The KJV in Isaiah refers to 'those who turn away from ungodliness in Jacob', and I like that turn of phrase, because it's how the law attempted to press them to behave, before the one who kept the whole law perfectly on our behalf, had come.

That Paul refers to ungodliness being 'turned away from Jacob' in Romans 11, is a clear shift of emphasis, which well portrays the difference between the covenants.



Hi jiggyfly,

Thanks for your clarifying statement. I'd be interested to see the procession of scriptures you use to construct your thesis, but I know you are quite busy at times. I am familiar with the connection between Isaiah 45 and Philippians 2, so what, for you, are the other crucial verses which make your doctrine work?
Jiggyfly's statement in post #55 was right on. Most Christians think that Jiggyfly
is saying you can do anything you want and still be saved. That is for from what
we are saying. Jiggyfly and I want a person to experience Jesus Christ and His
Grace now, but if he/she rejects their calling in this present time, they will have
to experience a much longer Judgment in the future called "the Lake of Fire".

It is where death ( the carnal mind) and hell ( the grave or the people that wasn't
raised in the first resurrection ) will be placed for their judgment. As I said in the
last post... judgment is established so the inhabitants of the world will begin to
learn righteousness ( Isa. 26:9 ). Because these people didn't adhere to the Spirit
of the Lord for whatever reason during their lifetime on this earth, they will begin
their training and they will not get out until they have paid all that was owed.
Matthew 18:34-35 says,

34 "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to
the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35 " My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if
each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."

Notice Jesus said until he should repay all. This servant wouldn't forgive his fellow
servant after Jesus had forgave him a great debt. We are all indebted to Jesus
Christ. Paul said, I am a bond slave of Jesus Christ in Romans 1:1. As Jiggyfly
said, no one will get away with with anything. All will have to pay what they owe if
they don't allow Jesus to pay their debt for them.

But what I want you to really see is Jesus said, until you have paid all that you
owe. In essense, He is saying @ some point you will get out of jail. I was taught in
the church that you never got out. If you stole a loaf of bread to feed your hungry
family and you died a few minutes after... you were going to spend eternity in a
tormenting burning hell. Come on... I actually believed that for 30 years because
God was Holy and He had to bring justice. How just is that?

The truth is... God will judge according to His Divine Law. You will pay for everything
you did in your lifetime, but it will not be for eternity, because that is man's way not
God's Way. God will restore mankind in the Ages to come. God has raised us up first
who trusted Him when He visited us during our allotted time on this earth. Eph. 1:9
says,

9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according
to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness
of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ,
things in the heavens and things on the earth.
12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ
would be to the praise of His glory.

God's will has been a mystery or secret for a long time, but He is revealing His will
to anyone that will listen. What is His Will? 1st Tim. 2:3-4 says,

3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the
knowledge of the truth.

So God's desire or will is that all men be saved. The question is... can God perform
His desire or will? Is it possible for God to actually save all men/women? According
to man it is impossible, but with God... all things are possible. Rom. 8:21 says,

21 that the creation itself also will be set free from its
slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of
the children of God.

One day the whole creation... everything that God created will be set free, because
Jesus paid the price.

What a God? What a Plan?

Logabe