Are all forgiven?

[arunangelo]

To forgive is to bring healing to one’s offender. Jesus brought us forgiveness by freely accepting the most painful death for expressing love through his words and actions. Through His sacrifice Jesus imprints his spirit of love on our heart; which heals us by enabling us to die to sin and accept righteousness (1Peter 2:24). Jesus brings forgiveness to all (including those who betrayed him and were unfaithful to him). Those who accept his forgiving spirit accept his forgiveness. On the other hand those who reject his forgiving spirit by refusing to forgive reject his forgiveness.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi arunangelo,

Those who accept his forgiving spirit accept his forgiveness. On the other hand those who reject his forgiving spirit by refusing to forgive reject his forgiveness.

Personally, I believe there is a confusion of terms on the topic of the Atonement, the reconciliation which it brought between God and man at a spiritual level, and the need for a response by each individual person in order to receive his/her own 'remission of sins' through faith in the power of Christ's blood.

When John the Baptist was preaching and prophesying, he was calling people to make a response. Unless they came forward for baptism, they could not experience the remission of their sins. In the same way, those of mankind who do not approach the Father through Christ Jesus, cannot experience the forgiveness of their sins, even though Christ's death and resurrection, the barrier to fellowship with God has been removed.

It is vital that each person complies with the terms of God's invitation, in order to receive the benefits of His provision for us in Christ.

Following on from this, when a person has experienced how totally their past sins are forgiven, they are finally equipped to forgive others. Although one can use certain verses in the gospels to make it sound as if a person cannot become a Christian until they have forgiven those who have sinned against them, there is no logical or practical reason for making that stipulation. When Jesus was speaking, He was talking about something that hadn't really happened in their experience, yet. We can see this if we look for the references to 'conscience' in the apostles' writings. There is no doubt that before the New Covenant, even those who kept the Mosaic law perfectly, could not testify to a clear conscience.

My experience of being forgiven, is partly about forgiving myself too, but until I had tasted the superior qualities of the forgiveness of God within my own soul, I had no strength to forgive others.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

All have been forgiven. That is why no matter what happens in history, God does not destroy us. If He took down entire cities and flooded the Earth, then our world would have long suffered much more since if not for the holy atonement by Christ.

Forgiveness, however, still requires saisfaction. When God forgave Adam, he still had to eat by the sweat of his brow. In the same way, we reap what we sow nonetheless, and salvation is only found through either faith or remaining in sync with the New Covenant. In failing to do so, you reject grace through your actions and cannot recieve eternal life. I do, however, believe there is a somewhat unconditional elect that God chooses as well.

That's pretty much a summary of what I believe.

 

[williemac]

All have been forgiven. That is why no matter what happens in history, God does not destroy us. If He took down entire cities and flooded the Earth, then our world would have long suffered much more since if not for the holy atonement by Christ.

Forgiveness, however, still requires saisfaction. When God forgave Adam, he still had to eat by the sweat of his brow. In the same way, we reap what we sow nonetheless, and salvation is only found through either faith or remaining in sync with the New Covenant. In failing to do so, you reject grace through your actions and cannot recieve eternal life. I do, however, believe there is a somewhat unconditional elect that God chooses as well.

That's pretty much a summary of what I believe.

That is a decent summary. But I would suggest you re consider the first comment about God not destroying us (anyone). There are scriptures that say otherwise. Jesus said in Math10:28 that God can destroy both body and soul in hell. The word for hell in that passage is the Greek "Gehenna", which is a reference for the Lake of Fire; a different place than that of Hades. Now some may say that God has no intention of destroying anyone even though the passage says He can. However, the point of the passage is to tell us that this is why we should fear (reverent respect) God, so we can assume that He intends to destroy the damned. Otherwise the advice to fear Him is not sincere.

As for forgiveness, 2Cor.5:19-20 says that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. But it also says that He is pleading with men to be reconciled to Him. The point is that reconciliation is not automatic. It requires a response to the offer. In this way we can see that forgiveness is also an offer but does not automatically save or reconcile. In fact, Rom.5:10 says that while His death reconciled us, it is His life that saves us. And John declared that he who has the Son has life, but he who does not have the Son does not have life (1John5:12). Man is not immortal. To live forever, one must partake of Jesus. Otherwise he will not live forever but die (eventually, in the Lake of Fire, at the second death). These are the words of Jesus found in John 6:50,51.

So in reply to the OP, I would say that forgiveness is an offer to all, but does not apply to all automatically.

However, I strongly disagree with it's suggestion that forgiveness is conditional to our forgiveness of others. That was an old covenant condition that no one could fulfill, and is not applied to new covenant guidlelines. Under the new covenant, we forgive others because we have been forgiven, not to get forgiveness (Eph.4:32). The sermon on the Mount was given under the timeline of the old covenant and the intention of Jesus was to clarify what the law was actually saying. Until that time, it was believed that the law was able to be fulfilled. But Jesus went about raising the bar so high that it validated the need for a Savior. This was the purpose of the law as Paul expalined to the Galatians. Therefore He told them that if they did not forgive, they would not be forgiven. This is an impossible condition to fulfill for anyone but God Himself. We fall short. We always will in this life. Foregiveness is made available through the death of Jesus...period.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi SIM,

Isn't 'All have been forgiven', incompatible with RCC doctrine?

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Hi SIM,

Isn't 'All have been forgiven', incompatible with RCC doctrine?

You are forgiven until you transgress the commands of the New Covenant. The Church holds to the concept of infusion, by which you lose your sync to the atonement by violating those commands. You have to repent to regain that sync. This does not require belief, it requires works and recanting inner wickedness.

 

[aspen]

yes.

 

[dragonfly]

Thanks, SIM. That seems to exclude the exhortations of John in his first epistle, 1 John 2:1, 2.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Thanks, SIM. That seems to exclude the exhortations of John in his first epistle, 1 John 2:1, 2.

John strongly implies that knowing Jesus is not about belief, but about keeping his commandments. The position of God is definitively Good, and so if you know good, you know God.

The importance of knowing that Good is the Christian God is that you are not decieved by what the world sees as good, or in biblical times, what another religion sees as good.
What is penetrating about the Christian God is that He is so emulated in men's spirit. We are the great imitators of God. We are capable of both good and destruction, we rule over the land, we know good and evil. We are made in His image and likeness on so many levels, but our sinful nature separates us.

What rational position is there to say that faith is mandatory and required for salvation when it is almost always brought forth as simply an augmentation for one to not be decieved by evil? There really isn't one.
When Scripture states that you must believe, it is being issued to people of the time who had to believe just to serve the New Covenant. They lived under pagan governments, and the Jews lived by the old ways. Without belief, how could they possibly get themselves to actually obey?

That is the Catholic approach to Scripture. Obedience to natural law and compassion to mankind are the keys to being one with God. Jesus is the keystone of the entire working, you simply have to be like Jesus.

 

[williemac]

You are forgiven until you transgress the commands of the New Covenant. The Church holds to the concept of infusion, by which you lose your sync to the atonement by violating those commands. You have to repent to regain that sync. This does not require belief, it requires works and recanting inner wickedness.

This reply means absolutely nothing unless it can be backed up with scripture. Otherwise it is merely an opinion of man. Please indulge us.

John strongly implies that knowing Jesus is not about belief, but about keeping his commandments. The position of God is definitively Good, and so if you know good, you know God.

The importance of knowing that Good is the Christian God is that you are not decieved by what the world sees as good, or in biblical times, what another religion sees as good.
What is penetrating about the Christian God is that He is so emulated in men's spirit. We are the great imitators of God. We are capable of both good and destruction, we rule over the land, we know good and evil. We are made in His image and likeness on so many levels, but our sinful nature separates us.

What rational position is there to say that faith is mandatory and required for salvation when it is almost always brought forth as simply an augmentation for one to not be decieved by evil? There really isn't one.
When Scripture states that you must believe, it is being issued to people of the time who had to believe just to serve the New Covenant. They lived under pagan governments, and the Jews lived by the old ways. Without belief, how could they possibly get themselves to actually obey?

That is the Catholic approach to Scripture. Obedience to natural law and compassion to mankind are the keys to being one with God. Jesus is the keystone of the entire working, you simply have to be like Jesus.

Why do you need a rational position? Why not just accept what is written, inspired of God? When scrpiture states that one must believe, it is being issued to mankind. John 3:16 was applied to the whole world, as it is quoted that God so loved the world. When Paul wrote his letters, his validation of faith said nothing of which you speak in this reply. Yours is merely an opinion meant to support a predetermined position. It is not supported through the study of the subject of faith. On the contrary, it will be proven faulty by such a study.

The bible speaks of a new birth. It also tells of a new nature that comes into us through this birth. It also speaks of the indwelling presence of God and Jesus through the Holy Spirit. These things are offered to us by the grace of God and are said to be received by faith. In no uncertain terms can we from a biblical perspective accept that these are experiences common to all mankind and outside of faith.

If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. What we are called to do is bear the fruit of this new man in us. This is a far cry from the notion of merely obeying a covenant under one's own strength and from one's natural resources. One must be born again.
If thes things are not understood, taught, and practiced by any Catholic or Protestant group, then they fall short of new covenant fulfillment.

 

[Axehead]

Is one forgiven and saved if they refuse to come under Christ's authority which bring them into relationship with Him?

 

[aspen]

Is one forgiven and saved if they refuse to come under Christ's authority which bring them into relationship with Him?

Forgiven, but not redeemed.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Is one forgiven and saved if they refuse to come under Christ's authority which bring them into relationship with Him?

Purgatory. Lots and lots of Purgatory. And that's assuming they don't die in unrepented mortal sins and blasphemy.

Make no mistake, the Church does not posit universalism in the slightest. It simply teaches that Heaven and Hell is based on the good and the wicked, not the believer and the unbeliever.

 

[williemac]

Purgatory. Lots and lots of Purgatory. And that's assuming they don't die in unrepented mortal sins and blasphemy.

Make no mistake, the Church does not posit universalism in the slightest. It simply teaches that Heaven and Hell is based on the good and the wicked, not the believer and the unbeliever.

Unfortunately, Jesus said there is none good but God. (Math;19:17).You really should consider believing Him. As well, the bible says that it is appointed for man to die once, and after that, the judgment. (Heb.9:27). No mention of purgetory. In fact, that word is not even found in the bible. The temptation that we all face is to put ourselves in God's place, as Lucifer did. The third temptation of Christ was equivalent to that which John called the pride of life (1John 2:16). It has to do with being puffed up over one's status or attempted status. Paul said that we are saved, not of works, lest anyone should boast (or, have cause or reason to boast..Eph.2:9).

If one should be saved on the basis of his works or his behavior, he would have cause or reason to boast. This cannot happen. God will not honor the pride of life. Therefore those who connect salvation with the abstaining from sin, or with the good works they have done, they have been drawn into the third temptation and are transgressors. Therefore good behavior, although extremely important and highly exhorted, cannot be done to attain or keep salvation. This is deadly motivation.

 

[Axehead]

Purgatory. Lots and lots of Purgatory. And that's assuming they don't die in unrepented mortal sins and blasphemy.

Make no mistake, the Church does not posit universalism in the slightest. It simply teaches that Heaven and Hell is based on the good and the wicked, not the believer and the unbeliever.

Jesus who spoke of hell more than anyone in the bible (and heaven) does not give me the option of purgatory. In fact, He never mentioned it.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

Jesus who spoke of hell more than anyone in the bible (and heaven) does not give me the option of purgatory. In fact, He never mentioned it.

That's because you don't have the book of Tobit in your canon.

Either way, Purgatory is a somewhat 'scientific' doctrine, and it was brought up initially to solve a metaphysical problem. When a person dies, they have to be cleansed of all sins to be able to enter Heaven because God cannot justify or glorify sin. Forgiveness is the ticket out of Hell and a wipe off the slate, it does not cleanse the soul directly. Only actual repentence can do that.

The thing is, the typical Christian sins a lot. They may not all commit mortal sins, but venial sins are pretty much inescapable. Simply being part of one's fallen nature, we commit them every day. Purgatory is mandatory for preparation of the Beatific Vision you will recieve in Heaven. The Church doesn't really expound on Purgatory as being ominous are something to fear, but rather a blessing in which we face are faults dead on in preparation for holiness.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi SIM,

John strongly implies that knowing Jesus is not about belief, but about keeping his commandments.

1 John 3: 3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifies himself, even as he is pure. 4 Whosoever commits sin transgresses also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abides in him sins not: whosoever sins has not seen him, neither known him.

Isn't John's point about keeping His commandments a response to knowing Jesus? He is saying.... 'IF you knew Him when He was alive, and IF you saw HIm die (as John had done), and IF you love Him as much as I love Him, (and understand how much of a waste it seemed that He had to die for us, although He did have to die for us, and He willingly did so), then you would 'keep His commandments'.

All that keeping His commandments does, is show Jesus where our hearts direct their affection. Keeping His commandments was HIS definition of us being His 'friends'.


Actually, John mentions belief regularly, and only mentions in his epistle. The word 'faith' does not appear in his gospel.


Do you have to 'believe' in anyone you 'know', or, does 'knowing' them, remove all need for 'belief'?

 

[SilenceInMotion]

If you were born in China, you would burn in Hell no matter how good and loving person you were. You would have heard much about Jesus, but you probably wouldn't believe in him because, well, you're a Chinese person living in China. That is the finality of 'only being saved by faith'. That's the God of Protestantism.

Here's some truth: The founder of Protestantism, Martin Luther, hated Jews with a burning passion. He was angry that the Church was serving the Inquisitions on heresies within the Christian communities rather then those dang evil Jews. So he made a theology in which only Christians can be saved, with the added bonus of Christians being able to run free with heresies from there on out which attracted the populace (who also hated the heck out of some Jews).


Belief, faith- these two things are not really different, only that faith is often used more explicitly as being a rejection of doubt. The definition of a creator god is 'the Logos'. or the logic, of all that exists. Christianity extends the definition of the Logos as being 'good'.

So in essence, believing in God is believing in a force of good and being in pursuit of good. In the Old Testament, there was a holiness code that never required once a state of belief, it was works through and through. Jesus dying in the cross is supposed to be one of grace, not limitation, and that is the grave error of the notion that only explicit faith in the Diety of Christ can save.

 

[Foreigner]

Purgatory. Lots and lots of Purgatory.

-- "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," - Heb. 9:27

Translation: Once you die you face judgment, not rehab.

 

[SilenceInMotion]

-- "Just as people are destined to die once, and after that to face judgment," - Heb. 9:27

Translation: Once you die you face judgment, not rehab.

Oh wow, how could the Church have missed that?

Translation: proof-texting never got you anywhere, stop doing it