Are Churches Becoming Too Commercialized??

[Marymog]

I have thought about this, and I would say you have nailed it, but it depends though, whether if a Pastor is following the call God has gave him, or if he is just following the call his own flesh gave him. If God tells a person to trust him and to buy, build or start something, and they obey him, and get rich by doing so, then good on him or her, they are rightfully wealthy. But then if someone puts up there hand and becomes a Pastor without the lead of the Holy Spirit, when they are really called to be a commercial fisherman by God, and gets a million bucks out of the Church offering basket, then that isn't really right is it, unless if that man is led by the Holy Spirit to be both. There are apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers, but not everyone is called to be a pastor, just like not everyone is called to be a teacher, it's important that we follow the call of God, otherwise we get plumber Fred preaching a dead message of works at a Church raking in a 2nd income to buy a solid gold toilet seat for himself and we don't want that do we, we want lively churches ran by people who are following the lead of the Holy Spirit equipping others with fire.

They are rightfully wealthy?

[SIZE=11pt]Have you not read in scripture when Jesus sent his apostles out he told them to “take nothing for their journey except a staff; no bread, no bag, no money in their belts; but to wear sandals and not put on two tunics”[/SIZE] (Mark 6:7-9).

It sounds like your opinion is if they came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that?

Who determines who is "plumber Fred" and who has been truly been "called to be a pastor"? You or the Christian society as a whole?

Isn't plumber Fred "rightfully wealthy" if he can afford to "buy a solid gold toilet seat" since he rightfully obtained the money to buy it by preaching the word of God?

Jesus said, "sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21) He also said "none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

He did not say my disciples can keep whatever they possess that they have rightfully bought with money given to them from the church and they will also have treasure in heaven.

My two cents worth.

Mary

 

[Josho]

Have you not read Ecclesiates 5:19? There is no sin in being rich, and not every rich man is wicked. The difference between the kinds I mentioned is one has been led by God to do something, he has followed God's calling, and because of that, God makes that man wealthy, but.... There are other people who follow their flesh, instead of God's individual plan for their life and this is where it can go wrong. Not every Christian is called to be a pastor, and not every Christian is called to be a plumber. I am a strong believer of God having an individual plan for each ones life, if we were to ask him to direct us in the right path he will, but if we go against what God has planned for us that's when people go wrong, you can't run from Ninevah. There are also examples of people in the bible whom God made wealthy, Joseph, David, Solomon, Abraham. So it's possible to be a wealthy man of God, if God gives you wealth.

 

[Marymog]

Have you not read Ecclesiates 5:19? There is no sin in being rich, and not every rich man is wicked. The difference between the kinds I mentioned is one has been led by God to do something, he has followed God's calling, and because of that, God makes that man wealthy, but.... There are other people who follow their flesh, instead of God's individual plan for their life and this is where it can go wrong. Not every Christian is called to be a pastor, and not every Christian is called to be a plumber. I am a strong believer of God having an individual plan for each ones life, if we were to ask him to direct us in the right path he will, but if we go against what God has planned for us that's when people go wrong, you can't run from Ninevah. There are also examples of people in the bible whom God made wealthy, Joseph, David, Solomon, Abraham. So it's possible to be a wealthy man of God, if God gives you wealth.

Hi Josho,

I don't see anywhere I suggested it is a sin to be rich and every rich man is wicked.

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

Why can't Fred be a plumber and a Pastor? Paul was a tentmaker and a Pastor (Acts 18:3).

Since Fred rightfully obtained the money thru his plumbing job wouldn't he, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

Or is it true that Fred should follow what Jesus said: "sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21) He also said "none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

How do we reconcile contradicting passages? Ecclesiastes 5:19 against Matthew and Luke?

Mary

 

[Josho]

Hi Josho,

I don't see anywhere I suggested it is a sin to be rich and every rich man is wicked.

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

Why can't Fred be a plumber and a Pastor? Paul was a tentmaker and a Pastor (Acts 18:3).

Since Fred rightfully obtained the money thru his plumbing job wouldn't he, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

Or is it true that Fred should follow what Jesus said: "sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21) He also said "none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).

How do we reconcile contradicting passages? Ecclesiastes 5:19 against Matthew and Luke?

Mary

Because it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor in that example, and he didn't have enough money from plumbing to buy the solid gold toilet seat, so he decided to take up preaching just for more money, which is the wrong intention.

It's my opinion that the 12 Disciples were given a task by Jesus and they went out and did it, this again goes back to "God's individual plan for each individual person." And we have the Holy Spirit to instruct us and lead us today, if he never told us to be a pastor in anyway, then that's not our call, and when i say told us I don't mean reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There are ways to be led.

You will get the strong feeling that the Holy Spirit is with you in this one, you may even hear an audible voice from the Holy Spirit like "Mary go and be a pastor", God may keep bringing a Bible verse to you and that may be your calling, or he may tell you in a dream or vision, and there are many other ways but this is how God speaks to us and tells us what he wants us to do, or where he wants us to go. This is God's individual plan for each individual person, there are cases where God has told someone where a gold nugget is, and he or she went to that location and found a gold nugget, and got wealthy of that. Now there's nothing wrong about that. It's all a part of God's plan for that person.

Proverbs 13:22 tells us that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous

John 10:10 speaks about having life abundantly

James 1:17 tells us that every good and great gift is from above

Psalms 37:11 the meek shall inherit the land

I gotta go now, there are many more Bible verses about the promise of abundance for us

 

[Marymog]

Because it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor in that example, and he didn't have enough money from plumbing to buy the solid gold toilet seat, so he decided to take up preaching just for more money, which is the wrong intention.

It's my opinion that the 12 Disciples were given a task by Jesus and they went out and did it, this again goes back to "God's individual plan for each individual person." And we have the Holy Spirit to instruct us and lead us today, if he never told us to be a pastor in anyway, then that's not our call, and when i say told us I don't mean reading the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. There are ways to be led.

You will get the strong feeling that the Holy Spirit is with you in this one, you may even hear an audible voice from the Holy Spirit like "Mary go and be a pastor", God may keep bringing a Bible verse to you and that may be your calling, or he may tell you in a dream or vision, and there are many other ways but this is how God speaks to us and tells us what he wants us to do, or where he wants us to go. This is God's individual plan for each individual person, there are cases where God has told someone where a gold nugget is, and he or she went to that location and found a gold nugget, and got wealthy of that. Now there's nothing wrong about that. It's all a part of God's plan for that person.

Proverbs 13:22 tells us that the wealth of the wicked is stored up for the righteous

John 10:10 speaks about having life abundantly

James 1:17 tells us that every good and great gift is from above

Psalms 37:11 the meek shall inherit the land

I gotta go now, there are many more Bible verses about the promise of abundance for us

How can you say it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor? Paul was a tent maker and a preacher. Why can't Fred be a plumber and a preacher?
Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

If Fred rightfully obtained his money thru his plumbing job wouldn't Fred, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

Maybe, according to your statement, "God's individual plan for each individual person" was Gods individual plan for Fred? Maybe it is as you stated "part of God's plan" for Fred.

I feel like you are saying God didn't lead the Holy Spirit to instruct Fred to be a pastor? How do you know that? Did God call for Paul to be a tent maker and a pastor?

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

 

[Josho]

How can you say it wasn't God's plan for Fred to become a pastor? Paul was a tent maker and a preacher. Why can't Fred be a plumber and a preacher?
Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

If Fred rightfully obtained his money thru his plumbing job wouldn't Fred, according to your logic, rightfully be able to "buy a solid gold toilet seat"?

Maybe, according to your statement, "God's individual plan for each individual person" was Gods individual plan for Fred? Maybe it is as you stated "part of God's plan" for Fred.

I feel like you are saying God didn't lead the Holy Spirit to instruct Fred to be a pastor? How do you know that? Did God call for Paul to be a tent maker and a pastor?

Is it your opinion that if the disciples came back wealthy Jesus would have been OK with that? (Mark 6:7-9)

Fred is just an example..... I'm saying the Holy Spirit didn't lead imaginary Fred to become a pastor. How does that not make sense? And I'm not comparing Fred with Paul the tent maker.

Some are called to pastor a church, some are not, some are called to be prophets and some are not. Jonah was called to go Ninevah, he wasn't called to be a church-sitter in his hometown, see my point yet about being led? God has a plan for each and everyone of us, and it's up to us whether we want to follow it or not, when man goes his own way, when man follows his flesh, that's when stuff goes wrong.

Would Jesus have been ok with the disciples coming back wealthy? Is he okay with us coming back home wealthy? Well what do you believe? Does Jesus want to bless you or take from you? Does Jesus want you to live abundantly or in financial struggle?

Well what's a righteous man's reward? Psalm 112 will tell you that. And I hope it answers your question.

Psalm 112

112 [a] Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
who greatly delights in his commandments!
2 His offspring will be mighty in the land;
the generation of the upright will be blessed.
3 Wealth and riches are in his house,
and his righteousness endures forever.
4 Light dawns in the darkness for the upright;
he is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
5 It is well with the man who deals generously and lends;
who conducts his affairs with justice.
6 For the righteous will never be moved;
he will be remembered forever.
7 He is not afraid of bad news;
his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
8 His heart is steady;[b] he will not be afraid,
until he looks in triumph on his adversaries.
9 He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever;
his horn is exalted in honor.
10 The wicked man sees it and is angry;
he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
the desire of the wicked will perish!

 

[FHII]

I said I'd get back in a week to address some questions. I just didn't say which week that would be. Turns out it was the week one month after.

In all serious... I had to take a month off. I have my reasons and I ask forgiveness for not upholding my original promise.

There are certain things I will need to comment on later. Those issues are just too unwieldy to do on a cell phone. But I would like to address a few issues.


In Mat 23:23 Jesus said [paraphrasing ] that the Pharisees paid tithes but omitted more important matters. He said they ought to pay tithes, but shouldn't have neglected mercy, law , judgment and faith.

I wholeheartedly agree that these verses aren't directly talking about tithing. My only point was that Jesus said it ought to be done. I believe that the actual amount has changed as shown by Paul, but the concept of giving still is important.

In fact, the new amount Paul talked about is what I want to get to next.

I'll do my best to get to the point, but it will not be easy. We previously spoke of 1 cor 9 how Paul said though he could've demanded compensation for his preaching, he didn't. I've commented on that before, but for now... Just keep that chapter in mind.

I want to go to 2 Cor 9. Verse 7 says:

[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This is what I believe to be the new amount I spoke of. What should be a pastor's salary? This is it. We aren't required to tithe anymore, we are required to give according to what is in our heart. In Galatians it say let him that is taught communicate good things to him that teaches.

It was suggested that 2 Cor 9 was talking about giving to the poor, not the Pastor. Not 100% true... At least not in the way thought.

Paul did do relief based missionaries and was big on aiding the poor financially. This may have been a part of it but it was not was he was talking about.

The context of the thought Paul was portraying begins in chapter 8 of 2 Cor. Paul notes the poverty of the Macedonians yet they were still givers. Chapter 9 is where he tells the Corinthians they too should be givers. He talks about ministering to the saints. But hold off any thoughts thay this was a famine relief effort of any sorts (financial or food famine).

Chapter 10 is where Paul announces he looked to bring the gospel to regions beyond Corinth (he spoke of Rome and Spain as desired destinations in the book of Romans).

So ministering to the saints wasn't about giving food or money to the poor... It was about bringing them the gospel. Yes, I believe Paul would've and did feed physical food to te poor and put coin in their hand, but it wasn't the main point.

Now, moving on to chapter 11, we learn that Paul robbed other Churches for the sake of the Corinthians. We also learn that it was the impoverished Macedonians that funded Paul while he was in Corinth. Specifically, the Thesselonians (in future commentary, this will be an important point).

Now lets go back to 1 Cor 9 when Paul said he preached the gospel free to the Corinthians... That's right! He was able to do that not because his tent making business was booming, but because the Thesselonians sent him funds.

2 Cor 8 - 11 is where Paul was instructing them to return the favor.

The point is that Paul lived off the offerings of the Church. He didn't give it all to the poor. He used that money to travel, to eat, to lodge, maybe even lead a sister by the hand (hate to say it, but that may mean to go out on a date).

Relating it to today... The pastor (as Paul did) has the power to use the money as he sees fit. Paul (that I know of) didn't own a house or property. That doesn't mean others can't. Hopefully, real men of God are wise stewards of what they receive.

Me personally... I am more interested in whether they are preaching truth and living by what they teach.

Later i will talk about the verses in Mat 6 and laying up treasures in heaven.

 

[Marymog]

Fred is just an example..... I'm saying the Holy Spirit didn't lead imaginary Fred to become a pastor. How does that not make sense? And I'm not comparing Fred with Paul the tent maker.

Some are called to pastor a church, some are not, some are called to be prophets and some are not. Jonah was called to go Ninevah, he wasn't called to be a church-sitter in his hometown, see my point yet about being led? God has a plan for each and everyone of us, and it's up to us whether we want to follow it or not, when man goes his own way, when man follows his flesh, that's when stuff goes wrong.

Would Jesus have been ok with the disciples coming back wealthy? Is he okay with us coming back home wealthy? Well what do you believe? Does Jesus want to bless you or take from you? Does Jesus want you to live abundantly or in financial struggle?

Well what's a righteous man's reward? Psalm 112 will tell you that. And I hope it answers your question.

Psalm 112

112 [a] Praise the Lord!
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord,
who greatly delights in his commandments!
2 His offspring will be mighty in the land;
the generation of the upright will be blessed.
3 Wealth and riches are in his house,
and his righteousness endures forever.
4 Light dawns in the darkness for the upright;
he is gracious, merciful, and righteous.
5 It is well with the man who deals generously and lends;
who conducts his affairs with justice.
6 For the righteous will never be moved;
he will be remembered forever.
7 He is not afraid of bad news;
his heart is firm, trusting in the Lord.
8 His heart is steady;[b] he will not be afraid,
until he looks in triumph on his adversaries.
9 He has distributed freely; he has given to the poor;
his righteousness endures forever;
his horn is exalted in honor.
10 The wicked man sees it and is angry;
he gnashes his teeth and melts away;
the desire of the wicked will perish!

"sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21)


"none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).


“Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.” [SIZE=11pt]Mark 12: 42-44[/SIZE]

“How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!”[SIZE=medium] (Mark 10:23)[/SIZE]

No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. Matthew 6:24

To answer your question: Does Jesus want to bless you or take from you?

Jesus isn't taking anything from you if you refuse wealth/money. However, he will bless you:

Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven

 

[Natha]

i am glad to express my understanding on this question
Yes i am strongly believing ,, churches only working for their own developments
most of missions and ministers are become as commercial missions
In my country India we are sad to see this false missions,,

 

[Josho]

i am glad to express my understanding on this question
Yes i am strongly believing ,, churches only working for their own developments
most of missions and ministers are become as commercial missions
In my country India we are sad to see this false missions,,

Well thanks for your response and thanks for shining a light on some missions in India from a first person perspective, that is sad, and sounds like the earth is in need of more true Christ-like missionaries with a real loving heart. Sorry for the late reply.

 

[Marymog]

Mary

If the disciples showed up with 200 gallons of ice cream he would've been ticked off.... Its hot in Israel. It would've all melted.

OR

it wouldn't have melted and Jesus would've said, "see? I told you that you would do greater miracles"!

Seriously... Im going to have to get back to you on this in about a week. I can't properly resond.

Good job and I'll get back to you.

Well...It's been three months and I'm still waiting

 

[FHII]

Well...It's been three months and I'm still waiting

For the disciples to show up with ice cream?

I think i did respond.... I will look through the thread later

 

[FHII]

For the disciples to show up with ice cream?



I think i did respond.... I will look through the thread later

I did respond. Pretty lengthy post but there were a few things I didn't get to... No one responded for a while so i didn't think anyone was interested.

 

[Marymog]

I did respond. Pretty lengthy post but there were a few things I didn't get to... No one responded for a while so i didn't think anyone was interested.

I apologize. I swear it wasn't there the other day.

Embarrassed Mary

 

[Marymog]

I said I'd get back in a week to address some questions. I just didn't say which week that would be. Turns out it was the week one month after.

In all serious... I had to take a month off. I have my reasons and I ask forgiveness for not upholding my original promise.

There are certain things I will need to comment on later. Those issues are just too unwieldy to do on a cell phone. But I would like to address a few issues.

In Mat 23:23 Jesus said [paraphrasing ] that the Pharisees paid tithes but omitted more important matters. He said they ought to pay tithes, but shouldn't have neglected mercy, law , judgment and faith.

I wholeheartedly agree that these verses aren't directly talking about tithing. My only point was that Jesus said it ought to be done. I believe that the actual amount has changed as shown by Paul, but the concept of giving still is important.

In fact, the new amount Paul talked about is what I want to get to next.

I'll do my best to get to the point, but it will not be easy. We previously spoke of 1 cor 9 how Paul said though he could've demanded compensation for his preaching, he didn't. I've commented on that before, but for now... Just keep that chapter in mind.

I want to go to 2 Cor 9. Verse 7 says:

[7] Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

This is what I believe to be the new amount I spoke of. What should be a pastor's salary? This is it. We aren't required to tithe anymore, we are required to give according to what is in our heart. In Galatians it say let him that is taught communicate good things to him that teaches.

It was suggested that 2 Cor 9 was talking about giving to the poor, not the Pastor. Not 100% true... At least not in the way thought.

Paul did do relief based missionaries and was big on aiding the poor financially. This may have been a part of it but it was not was he was talking about.

The context of the thought Paul was portraying begins in chapter 8 of 2 Cor. Paul notes the poverty of the Macedonians yet they were still givers. Chapter 9 is where he tells the Corinthians they too should be givers. He talks about ministering to the saints. But hold off any thoughts thay this was a famine relief effort of any sorts (financial or food famine).

Chapter 10 is where Paul announces he looked to bring the gospel to regions beyond Corinth (he spoke of Rome and Spain as desired destinations in the book of Romans).

So ministering to the saints wasn't about giving food or money to the poor... It was about bringing them the gospel. Yes, I believe Paul would've and did feed physical food to te poor and put coin in their hand, but it wasn't the main point.

Now, moving on to chapter 11, we learn that Paul robbed other Churches for the sake of the Corinthians. We also learn that it was the impoverished Macedonians that funded Paul while he was in Corinth. Specifically, the Thesselonians (in future commentary, this will be an important point).

Now lets go back to 1 Cor 9 when Paul said he preached the gospel free to the Corinthians... That's right! He was able to do that not because his tent making business was booming, but because the Thesselonians sent him funds.

2 Cor 8 - 11 is where Paul was instructing them to return the favor.

The point is that Paul lived off the offerings of the Church. He didn't give it all to the poor. He used that money to travel, to eat, to lodge, maybe even lead a sister by the hand (hate to say it, but that may mean to go out on a date).

Relating it to today... The pastor (as Paul did) has the power to use the money as he sees fit. Paul (that I know of) didn't own a house or property. That doesn't mean others can't. Hopefully, real men of God are wise stewards of what they receive.

Me personally... I am more interested in whether they are preaching truth and living by what they teach.

Later i will talk about the verses in Mat 6 and laying up treasures in heaven.

FHII,

I wholeheartedly agree with you that these verses aren't directly OR indirectly talking about tithing. Tithing is NOWHERE in the NT.

I agree with you that Paul notes the poverty of the Macedonians yet they were still givers. They willingly gave according to their means and beyond their means (2Corinthians 8:3). They were fulfilling the teachings of Christ: sell what we possess, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven because none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions. Shouldn't pastors, of all people, take the lead on this?

You say you are "more interested in whether they are preaching truth and living by what they teach". What is "the truth" FHII?

I ask you: What if they never preach about helping the poor, giving a cup of cold water to a child, the coat off of their back or walk the extra mile for one in need? If they don't preach about it they don't have to live by it? That is your rational?

I appreciate you response and once again apologize for missing.

Sincerely, Mary

 

[FHII]

FHII,

I wholeheartedly agree with you that these verses aren't directly OR indirectly talking about tithing. Tithing is NOWHERE in the NT.

I agree with you that Paul notes the poverty of the Macedonians yet they were still givers. They willingly gave according to their means and beyond their means (2Corinthians 8:3). They were fulfilling the teachings of Christ: sell what we possess, give to the poor and you will have treasure in heaven because none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions. Shouldn't pastors, of all people, take the lead on this?

You say you are "more interested in whether they are preaching truth and living by what they teach". What is "the truth" FHII?

I ask you: What if they never preach about helping the poor, giving a cup of cold water to a child, the coat off of their back or walk the extra mile for one in need? If they don't preach about it they don't have to live by it? That is your rational?

I appreciate you response and once again apologize for missing.

Sincerely, Mary

Tithing IS in the NT. I gave you the verse where Jesus said we ought to do it. Yes, it wasn't the main point but it is there.

In 2 Cor 8:3 they didn't give to the poor. They gave to Paul so he could preach.

It was a fullfilling of Mat 6 but it was so in that they gave for the preaching and to further tbe gosprl. Part of that is meeting and providing for God's ambassador.

Jesua never required us to give up all of our possessions. One guy he said that to, and you apply that accross thw board. He does require us to be willling to give it up.


A pastor gives more of his time than you realize. He's there praying for many.... Travailing and talking to God about your petty problems. And unless you are dying, your problems are petty. Even if you are dying, its a petty probkem. I believe in the reward waiting for me.

Open up your Bible. That is truth! That is the only truth. Absolutely a real preacher is going talk about ministering earthly needs to the poor. But thats not all he is going to talk about. In fact, its the last thing he will talk about.

 

[FHII]

A preacher doea his job. If you aren't a giver you rob the preacher and you rob God. Being a giver is actually a blessing. Every red cent you give is credited to you in a heavenly bank account.

 

[Marymog]

Tithing IS in the NT. I gave you the verse where Jesus said we ought to do it. Yes, it wasn't the main point but it is there.

In 2 Cor 8:3 they didn't give to the poor. They gave to Paul so he could preach.

It was a fullfilling of Mat 6 but it was so in that they gave for the preaching and to further tbe gosprl. Part of that is meeting and providing for God's ambassador.

Jesua never required us to give up all of our possessions. One guy he said that to, and you apply that accross thw board. He does require us to be willling to give it up.

A pastor gives more of his time than you realize. He's there praying for many.... Travailing and talking to God about your petty problems. And unless you are dying, your problems are petty. Even if you are dying, its a petty probkem. I believe in the reward waiting for me.

Open up your Bible. That is truth! That is the only truth. Absolutely a real preacher is going talk about ministering earthly needs to the poor. But thats not all he is going to talk about. In fact, its the last thing he will talk about.

Dear Sir,

No, you did not give a verse where Jesus said we ought to do it. In the verse you cited (Matthew 23:23) and in almost ALL of Matthew 23 Jesus is chastising the scribes and Pharisees WHO ARE JEWS for their actions or lack of actions. At no point does He ever say OR suggest directly OR indirectly that we should tithe. When he mentioned tithing it wasn't the main point OR a secondary point. It was one point of MANY in Matthew 23. Furthermore it is a well known fact that tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Are you, FHII, a Jew living under the law of Moses? If so, feel free to tithe.

NOWHERE in the NT does it say, suggest, hint at or imply tha we should tithe. To suggest otherwise is completely dishonest.

Moving on to pastor talk :)
Open up your Bible. This is truth:
"sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21)
"none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).
“Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.” (Mark 12: 42-44)
“How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23)
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. (Matthew 6:24)
in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:18).

What verse from the bible can you provide that says PASTORS can do opposite of what I quoted above? What you are saying and what scripture says are totally opposite, in my opinion.

Curious Mary!!

PS: Just to be clear when I say pastors I mean WEALTHY pastors. The ones who's income is above that of the average citizen of the country/area they live in. I know that most pastors live average lives with an average income. However, if they were true to scripture.......

 

[FHII]

Dear Sir,

No, you did not give a verse where Jesus said we ought to do it. In the verse you cited (Matthew 23:23) and in almost ALL of Matthew 23 Jesus is chastising the scribes and Pharisees WHO ARE JEWS for their actions or lack of actions. At no point does He ever say OR suggest directly OR indirectly that we should tithe. When he mentioned tithing it wasn't the main point OR a secondary point. It was one point of MANY in Matthew 23. Furthermore it is a well known fact that tithing was an Old Testament obligation that was incumbent on the Jews under the Law of Moses. Are you, FHII, a Jew living under the law of Moses? If so, feel free to tithe.

NOWHERE in the NT does it say, suggest, hint at or imply tha we should tithe. To suggest otherwise is completely dishonest.

Moving on to pastor talk :)
Open up your Bible. This is truth:
"sell what you possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven…” (Matthew 19:21)
"none of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions (Luke 14:23).
“Truly, I say to you, this poor widow has put in more than all those who are contributing to the treasury. For they all contributed out of their abundance; but she out of her poverty has put in everything she had, her whole living.” (Mark 12: 42-44)
“How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” (Mark 10:23)
No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money. (Matthew 6:24)
in my preaching I may make the gospel free of charge, not making full use of my right in the gospel” (1 Corinthians 9:18).

What verse from the bible can you provide that says PASTORS can do opposite of what I quoted above? What you are saying and what scripture says are totally opposite, in my opinion.

Curious Mary!!

PS: Just to be clear when I say pastors I mean WEALTHY pastors. The ones who's income is above that of the average citizen of the country/area they live in. I know that most pastors live average lives with an average income. However, if they were true to scripture.......

I am done with the conversation.

 

[Marymog]

I am done with the conversation.

It saddens me you can't give one verse from scripture that backs up your personal belief.

I respect your desire to be done with this conversation!!

Love......Mary!